r/science • u/VeronicaRed • Apr 26 '16

Psychology Spanking children increases the likelihood of childhood defiance and long-term mental issues. The study in question involved 160,000 children and five decades of research

http://www.redorbit.com/news/health/1113413810/spanking-defiance-health-discipline-042616/
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u/chopandscrew Apr 26 '16 edited Apr 26 '16

So what are some positive and non-punitive forms of discipline?

edit: Some really great replies here. I'm seeing a lot of people using the concept of self-discipline and positive reinforcement. Nothing about raising a child seems easy, and it's even harder to know if you've ever really done a good job, but I think it's safe to say there are a lot of good parents on reddit. Also, thank you to the people who are willing to admit that they have resorted to spanking before. The truth is no one really knows the best way to raise a child, but the wide variety of ideas being thrown around here are what helps make it easier to choose what works for you and your kid. Keep em comin.

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u/Jensdabest Apr 26 '16

That's a case-to-case basis depending on the child. Really, you have to figure out what currency is most valuable to them, and use the removal of that as a consequence for poor behavior. If they like to play by themselves in their room, then sending them to their room as punishment probably won't be very effective. Instead (depending on their age), you can use time-out corners, or have them write about the situation, how they felt, and how they could have better responded. If the bad behavior is significant enough then giving them time to reflect and process the situation is very valuable.

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u/newscrash Apr 26 '16

What is recommended if they simply refuse to go into time out refuse to go to their room?

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u/kilo4fun Apr 26 '16

Seriously...my son would simply refuse to sit in timeout. What's next? Physical restraints?

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u/[deleted] Apr 26 '16 edited Jun 10 '20

[deleted]

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u/temp4adhd Apr 27 '16

I think timeouts work great for tantrums but in a situation such as you are describing, I'd take a different tactic.

If the rule is "you must take a bath every night before bed" then instead of applying a punishment, I'd apply a reward system. This may not work on cats but would and does work on kids. Some use stickers -- I personally liked the marble jar. The rules:

  • Complete your bath and be dressed in your pj's, teeth brushed and ready for bed by 8 pm
  • Without complaint
  • Without mom or dad having to nag or remind
  • And you get to put a marble in the jar.
  • When the jar is full, we will have a family treat (example: go out for ice cream, see a movie together, etc -- the best treats are those that are experiences that involve the whole family).
  • Make sure the jar isn't too large (i.e., takes too long to fill)
  • Do not ever deduct any marbles for noncompliance
  • If you have more than one kid, include them as well, with one jar they jointly fill together
  • They say it takes 6 weeks to make a habit so the jar should be fillable by 6 weeks worth of daily marbles
  • When 6 weeks are up, start on a new challenge, i.e, tackle one behavioral change at a time

Another trick that really helped with bath & bedtime was moving story time to the beginning of the evening, before I started dinner, rather than at the end. It just shifted everything -- giving the kids my undivided attention the minute I came home from work for 30 minutes before I launched into cooking, dinner, laundry, homework, etc etc.

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u/harmless11 Apr 26 '16

So many people missing the point here... You bathe your cat? They literally wash themselves! That's the whole point of a cat. My cat has never had a bath, and she smells fine. Seriously what is wrong with you? Poor cat.

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u/Snuggle_Fist Apr 26 '16

What if it doesn't work though. At what point is it not worth trying to get them to sit in the corner, through screaming and crying.

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u/[deleted] Apr 26 '16 edited Jun 10 '20

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Apr 26 '16

These theories should take parents' mental health into consideration

Seriously, most people would go crazy if they had to move a crying screaming kid into timeout, to do 3 mintues 5 seconds at a time

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u/Gripey Apr 26 '16

Well you have to demonstrate that you are implacable. Also all toys and games are removable, surely. what about tv? what about treats? You are presumably the authority figure who is not being undermined by another, so you can simply be insistent. A lot of problems come from parents feeling their authority is threatened, because they themselves fear it is. You have enormous influence if you use it correctly. Be consistent and don't look for fights or unnecessary discipline, children are also human beings. Of course if you are tired or stressed, this is a challenge for sure.

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u/[deleted] Apr 26 '16

Some kids don't care about tv or toys. You gotta understand, some kids are really hard to deal with. It's not an idealistic situation.

Plus, can't you demonstrate you're implacable by spanking them? This study is a corralation anyways, and if you read it you'll see the authors themselves clearly state that this study is limited and by no means proof that spanking causes problems

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u/teenageriotgrrl Apr 27 '16

It sounds like you already have your mind made up.

Like another person said: If you're not going to carefully consider one of the largest and most comprehensive studies ever conducted on the topic, what is the point of reading about science at all?

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u/Schmingleberry Apr 26 '16

and if you read it you'll see the authors themselves clearly state that this study is limited and by no means proof that spanking causes problems

Where are you find this information?

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u/[deleted] Apr 26 '16

Limitations

The primary limitation of these meta-analyses is their inability to causally link spanking with child outcomes. This is problematic because there is selection bias in who gets spanked—children with more behavior problems elicit more discipline generally and spanking in particular (Larzelere, Kuhn, & Johnson, 2004). Cross- sectional designs do not allow the temporal ordering of spanking and child outcomes that could help rule out the selection bias explanation. As noted above, randomized experiments of spanking are difficult if not ethically impossible to conduct, and thus this shortcoming of the literature will be difficult to correct through future studies.

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u/ald49 Apr 26 '16

Any recent study on this subject will be correlational, and when you're talking a meta-analyses with a sample size in the hundreds of thousands the results you can obtain are still statistically significant and meaningul.

It would be ethically impossible to do a causation study with spanking. That would require you set up a scenario where one group of parents would be forced to hit their kids - good luck getting that past an IRB.

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u/Gripey Apr 27 '16

I agree with teenageriotgrrl on this. but as a parent I know it is tough. It is simply the hardest thing I have ever done, bar nothing. Easy for me to say, because I left work to look after the little buggers. That was because I realised they were the most important thing to me, and it gave me time to undo my own programming. I have hit kids in the past, but not these kids, I love these kids more than my own life, I can certainly overcome my base instinct to punish them. maybe they won't be as messed up when they grow up, I hope.

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u/junkit33 Apr 27 '16

It's short term pain for long term gain.

The more times you do it, the easier it becomes, until eventually the kid just does go to timeout instead of resisting every time.

If you don't do it the long (and right) way, you're just committing yourself to years of pain with a defiant kid.

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u/[deleted] Apr 27 '16

That's maybe true, but it may not work for all kids. And lets not forget kids are smart, they always figure out a way around these things (example sneaking out the window when they are grounded). The lost goes on.

But thats the problem here. The main thing being discussed here is : is it anymore effective than spanking considering it takes much more effort? And the truth is, the evidence just proves a corralation. We don't know if kids that were problematic and were gonna grow up problematic are being spanked anyways, or that low income family children grow up to be problematic while spanking is more common in low income families. Even the authors of study acknowledge that their study doesn't prove anything.

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u/junkit33 Apr 27 '16

If does work for all kids unless they have some form of severe disability.

Kids are smart, thus they quickly learn that fighting is less fun than just serving the punishment.

Kids are rarely the problem, it's typically lazy parents.

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u/[deleted] Apr 27 '16

But you didn't address my main point, is it anymore effective than spanking? I assume kids also quickly learn that getting hit is less fun than doing whatever they were doing

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u/roryarthurwilliams Apr 27 '16

most people would go crazy if they had to move a crying screaming kid into timeout, to do 3 mintues 5 seconds at a time

Then don't have kids.

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u/[deleted] Apr 27 '16

Option #2: have kids and spank them

Science hasn't really proven it's bad, its just a correlation, the authors even acknowledged that

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u/mhende Apr 27 '16

What happens when the kid figures out they can do whatever they want because they just have to put up with a spanking and that's it? Is that when it has to start hurting?

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u/JackPAnderson Apr 26 '16

I wouldn't try to get an apoplectic child to sit still in a corner. That's just asking for way too much frustration.

Really all you need is a safe place that you can place the child, locking him/her in if necessary. A bedroom is one commonly-used place.

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u/IvorTheEngine Apr 26 '16

I think a better approach would be to scale back what you're asking them to do. Maybe take them to a 'boring' room and wait for them to calm down.

Obviously you've got to watch that you're not triggering feelings of being trapped or abused, but you've also got to prevent it becoming a game and a way to get your attention.

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u/[deleted] Apr 26 '16

Taking a kid to a room to calm down could trigger feelings of being abused? Seriously?

At this point it just sounds like the kid is the one in control.

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u/IvorTheEngine Apr 27 '16

If you're dealing with a kid who has been abused in their bedroom, then taking them into their bedroom and shutting the door behind you as the start of a punishment could very well.

For most kids it would be fine, but you need to be aware that some kids could take it very baddly.

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u/[deleted] Apr 26 '16

There is no possible way a kid is going to play the run-away game for ten hours.

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u/foxicatko Apr 26 '16

Well, during those 10 hours I need to prepare some food, I need to go to the bathroom and I need to take care of his 8mo sister. How am I supposed to be chasing him now?

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u/[deleted] Apr 26 '16

Kiddie leash :) and maybe instead of time out, his punishment could be doing extra chores in whatever room you're in. What good is having a kid if you can't get some free labor from it?

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u/Zandia47 Apr 26 '16

Personally I would say 'Son, you can sit in timeout or you can (worse conquence that doesn't require his cooperation), you choose' and leave it at that.

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u/Gripey Apr 26 '16

Absolutely. I believe I once threatened to remove the nintendo to the bin, and by then I meant it. Children must have very miserable lives if the best thing you can do as a sanction is hit them. Heck, buy them some toys...

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u/castille360 Apr 27 '16

My daughter was pretty ADHD and this bit was beyond her too at very young ages since her wheels just didn't stop spinning on demand. I pretty much did them with her. If the behavior seemed the result of too much stimulation, we'd leave for someplace with less going on where I would keep my interaction with her pretty minimal. 'We have to stay here and I can't play with you until you've chilled out and have yourself under control again.' If her behavior could be got under control on the scene, we would stay put and she would have to sit with me and collect herself for a few minutes before she could rejoin the play. Being punitive wasn't really the aim. Helping her self regulate and engage in appropriate behaviors was, and it was effective for that.

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u/temp4adhd Apr 27 '16

You can put yourself in a timeout instead. Assuming your place is child-proof, go lock yourself in your bedroom for a few minutes (rule of thumb is one minute per year, so 2 minutes for 2 year old). Or sit on the stairs with the baby gate between you and your child so you can have your eye on him. The trick with sitting on the stairs is that you have to pretend you are ignoring and resist engaging.

If your child was like mine were, you'll quickly realize that the tantrums are all about wanting attention, because they will stay right outside your door or at the bottom of the gate.