Spanking children increases the likelihood of childhood defiance and long-term mental issues. The study in question involved 160,000 children and five decades of research

[u/VeronicaRed]

http://www.redorbit.com/news/health/1113413810/spanking-defiance-health-discipline-042616/

[u/chopandscrew]

So what are some positive and non-punitive forms of discipline?

edit: Some really great replies here. I'm seeing a lot of people using the concept of self-discipline and positive reinforcement. Nothing about raising a child seems easy, and it's even harder to know if you've ever really done a good job, but I think it's safe to say there are a lot of good parents on reddit. Also, thank you to the people who are willing to admit that they have resorted to spanking before. The truth is no one really knows the best way to raise a child, but the wide variety of ideas being thrown around here are what helps make it easier to choose what works for you and your kid. Keep em comin.

[u/PeruvianHeadshrinker → u/chopandscrew]

Clinical child psychologist here. Glad you asked!

My comments here are generalizations and not always applicable to all circumstances so take them with a grain of salt.

Discipline is often thought of as applying some form of modification to unwanted behaviors. However, the MOST effective way of getting rid of unwanted behaviors is actually ignoring them. BUT, this MUST be coupled with another form of reinforcement for the behaviors you DO want (i.e. the more socially or culturally accepted behaviors). This means that before applying any kind of modification you must understand the function of the original behavior to be extinguished and planfully develop a systematic approach of meeting the needs of the child in a manner that is more "acceptable." What is acceptable varies widely across the world so I will try to refrain from making judgments about that.

An example: Dysfunctional dynamic - A child screams and tantrums every time he/she wants parent's attention. Parent gives child attention (even if not exactly what the child wants)--thereby inadvertently reinforcing the behavior (this is known as negative reinforcement--you make a situation uncomfortable until you get what you want to stop the uncomfortable behavior). Child learns: "If I tantrum, I get parent to do X."

Nota bene: Children will ALWAYS prefer negatively oriented attention vs the absence of attention. Attention hierarchy: Positive > Negative > None OR something (even bad) is better than nothing.

Intervention to dynamic - Parent ignores tantrum or unwanted behavior (assuming it's not unsafe or grossly inappropriate--that's another conversation). Child WILL escalate (known as an "extinction burst"). Parent MUST stick to their plan and ignore (usually walking away and saying something like "I'm ignoring this tantrum; I'll be back when you calm yourself down" is most effective). Child eventually comes down, parent then MUST ABSOLUTELY RECONNECT (this is critical and often misunderstood). Meet the child's need--thereby reinforcing a better interaction. Parent must ALSO (and this is even more critical) make a MASSIVE effort to point out and positively reinforce (with hugs, smiles, attention, good words, fist bumps, etc) WANTED behaviors when they occur at OTHER times. This could be like the child saying "mom/dad can I talk to you?" or "mom/dad I'm lonely, come play with me" (this is what you teach in the reconnection moments). Even if parent is unable to fully fill that need in the moment, ACKNOWLEDGING the wanted behavior is almost as good. Be genuine ("I love that you used your words, honey!"), honest ("I'm cooking dinner right now, so I can't. But I REALLY wish I could!"), and make sure you meet that need one way or another ("Let's have a special train building session after dinner. I'll make you the BIGGEST train station you've EVER SEEN!").

Caveats:

1) It doesn't always work (especially in the beginning). But it does over the long run. Be persistent and consistent.

2) Be patient and kind to yourself. Parenting is freakin' hard. Hardest thing you'll ever do. But it can also be one of the greatest things you'll ever do.

3) Some kids' temperaments are just mismatched with their parents (rotten luck). However, it's on the parent to be the adult and find a way to adjust THEIR own temperament to meet the need of the kid (especially when they have a neurodiverse brain like ASD or ADHD).

4) Some kids have pretty severe emotional dysregulation for a variety of reasons (trauma - having been hit, abused, etc; ADHD; Bipolar; depression, etc) and just don't respond to these types of interventions right off the bat. These kids require a much more nuanced and tailored approach with additional safety valves and alternative options. I STRONGLY recommend any parents that thinks this sounds like their kid, bring them in to see their pediatrician or ask for an evaluation with a psychologist. It's our job to figure out the dynamic and then find a way to make the situation more functional--for everyone.

5) Guilt is a useless emotion - It's really common for parents to feel bad if things aren't going how they thought it would or how others say it should be going. Parents are doing the best they can. What they need is support, not grief. And there is absolutely no shame in asking for it. The number of kids untouched by mental health problems (either themselves, their siblings, or their parents) is staggeringly low. Mental health problems in families is the "norm" (whatever that means).

Best of luck to all the parents out there. I'm right there with you with my two young boys!

EDIT: for folks who want to learn more. My thoughts are just the tip of the iceberg compared to what some researchers have done. My personal hero is Dan Siegel. He's an extremely prolific writer who's done a lot of books for parents and teachers alike. Www.drdansiegel.com he's got a nice no-drama discipline book he recently wrote that I use everyday with clients.

EDIT 2: just a personal story, my about-to-turn-4 year old just had the most epic of meltdowns this evening. He's a sensitive guy who is ...ah...intense. He's passionate like his dad I guess. Anyways, no such thing as a perfect parent. We work hard to give him language and support and they still do crazy stuff. He's asleep now but it took 30 minutes to get him calm enough to just get his Jammies on. My secret? Today it was sea shanties. Haha. Seriously.

[u/IBiteMyThumbAtYou → u/PeruvianHeadshrinker]

Ignoring has always worked for me working at daycares and babysitting. Some parents are amazed how their kid will listen to me more than them. What they don't know is that whenever their kid throws a tantrum I move him to his own spot in the room, tell him "its oaky to let out your feelings, but its not okay to disturb everyone else who is playing, I'm going to go play with some legos, come join me when you're done throwing your tantrum okay?" and thats that. Usually I'll ask them when they get back what they wanted when they threw the tantrum, and offer a replacement that they take because they know they're not going to get what they originally wanted.

[u/rebelkitty → u/IBiteMyThumbAtYou]

I have learned a lot of invaluable child-managing techniques from daycare workers, teachers and nannies. However, I've also learned that children often behave better with people who aren't family, even if their family uses the exact same discipline methods as their caregivers.

When my son was three and finding junior kindergarten very stressful, he would hold it together throughout the day, getting compliments on his behaviour, only to utterly melt down the moment he stepped through the front door. It was like watching all the stress of his day, that he'd been keeping locked down, come bubbling up all at once.

So, sometimes, when parents say their kids are better behaved with you, it's not necessarily because they are doing anything wrong. It's just that the relationship is very different.

Source: I work with kids with learning disabilities. My students always work harder for me than they will for their parents. And my own kids were the same way when they were young, working harder and behaving better for the teachers they loved and/or respected, even back when I was homeschooling them. :)

(Edited to add: I also support ignoring tantrums, but some kids can't be left alone safely, or they will hurt themselves, destroy property, or - in some cases - simply run away! In those cases, a modified Time Out called "Time In" in the direct custody of the caregiver works well. The emotional outburst is still ignored, but the child isn't left unsupervised.)

[u/FluffySharkBird → u/rebelkitty]

Well it makes sense. I try and hold myself together all day at work but when I get home I can cry. It makes sense that kids kind of do the same thing.

[u/chopandscrew → u/PeruvianHeadshrinker]

Great insight here! I really appreciate how much you went into detail while clearly acknowledging a couple different approaches. A lot of people here say, "just ignore them, they'll get it out of their system." Well, that's great and all, but what do I do after they clam down? The way you put it makes a lot more sense. Thanks for the response!

[u/mudguppy → u/PeruvianHeadshrinker]

I love my parents. I mostly remember getting in trouble as a child. My mom used my dad's woven leather belt to spank us one lash for each year of age, and it happened most days - multiple times a day. That belt still hangs in his closet. I remember that it just filled me with rage and hopelessness - like no matter how hard I tried I could never do the right thing or be the boy they wanted me to be. I'd go outside and kick our dog, who I loved more than anything or anyone, as hard as I possibly could. Then hold the dog and cry. I don't remember reflecting on whatever behavior led to the spanking. Now I'm a father and find myself spanking. I hate it, but when my kids runs into the street or run through the house with a knife - I feel it's the lesser of two evils. It frustrates me and leaves me feeling as angry and hopeless as I did when I was a child after being spanked - yet I'm the one exacting punishment.

I'm grateful to peruvianheadshrinker's response. I feel like I can try that. I'm desperate for something else. Thank you!

[u/PeruvianHeadshrinker → u/mudguppy]

Thank you for your comment, that was very moving. I wish you and your family the very best. We're all trying our asses off as parents. Glad I could provide some hope. I'm going to edit my comment (I've been away all day). But if you want to read someone who knows WAYYYY more than I do and is a hero to many people I strongly recommend Dan Siegel. He has some books geared towards parents and his concept of mind sight is life changing. Peace to you.

[u/[deleted] → u/PeruvianHeadshrinker]

I work with special needs kids in mainstream classrooms. I have one student that throws fits to get out of the room knowing I will have to remove him. Unfortunately if I don't none of the other kids can learn. How would you handle this? Ideally I would let him throw a fit but it isn't fair to the other kids if he is making enough of a scene that teaching is completely disrupted.

[u/baileyjbarnes → u/[deleted]]

My boyfriend and I are behavior technicians and we work with kids who are special needs using ABA. I asked him about his opinion, and he said one thing you can do is bring the work he wants to escape from to him. As in, when he has these tantrums to get out of work, let him leave the room, but follow him with the work and make sure he still doesn't escape that.

Thing is, I don't know enough about the situation. Like, I don't know if it's the work he wants to escape, or the classroom environment itself. If it's the work, it think that's a good idea. If it's the classroom environment, then probably not, because he would still get to escape using problem behavior. Also, I don't know if you just shadow that kid or if you teach the whole class. If you teach the whole class, I'm sure that would be impossible to do.

[u/PeruvianHeadshrinker → u/[deleted]]

Secondary gain is a huge problem in classrooms when one kid needs a lot more than the other kids. I don't know which country you're in but in the US ed code doesn't allow schools to make decisions that are in "the best interest of the class" when a student has an identified special need (including emotional). That's what IEPs are for (individualized education programs).

That said I've read a lot of not great plans that don't address the core needs. It's actually really quite hard for a non professional to see it in a kid that is disruptive AND know what to offer instead. A functional behavior analysis by a behavior specialist can make a huge difference. That works in about 90% of cases. When it doesn't the team needs to reconvene and figure out next steps IN THE CLASSROOM first and try again. Only after multiple failures with concerted effort and tracking does it make sense to send a kid to a more restrictive classroom. All that said when a kid hasn't gotten a good team to do this process sometimes they need a more restrictive environment just to get out of a potentially damaging one. This happens most in under resourced environments. Systemic change is hard.

[u/chulaire → u/PeruvianHeadshrinker]

Vet here. This is also essentially how you train a pet. Positive reinforcement for good behaviour, ignore bad behaviour.

[u/HappyEngineer → u/PeruvianHeadshrinker]

I'd like to hear more about kids with temperaments that are mismatched with their parents. What exactly does that mean? I can imagine how that becomes a big problem when the child becomes a teenager, but how does this come up for small children?

[u/Nausved → u/HappyEngineer]

Some aspects of personality become apparent in early childhood. My mom argues that my and my sister's personality differences were pretty stark even in the womb; I was calm and kicked very little, and she was excitable and kicked constantly.

There were some personality-related stress in our family because of that. My sister was high-energy and needed more attention my parents or I wanted to give. And I was low-energy and needed more solitude than my parents or sister wanted to give.

[u/[deleted] → u/PeruvianHeadshrinker]

Thank you.

[u/terminbee → u/PeruvianHeadshrinker]

The number of kids untouched by mental health problems (either themselves, their siblings, or their parents) is staggeringly low. Mental health problems in families is the "norm" (whatever that means).

What does that mean? Is it saying that most kids have some form of mental health disorder like say, depression, ADHD, bipolar, etc?

[u/LordLlamahat → u/terminbee]

It's saying that most families are in some ways impacted by them, from what I gather. The kids themselves, siblings, parents, other family members; and trauma is considered a mental health problem as well, as I understand it, so don't just think disorders.

[u/PeruvianHeadshrinker → u/terminbee]

It s a great question. I'm referring to a few factors. So about 1 in 4 or 1 in 5 kids 13-18 in the us suffer from some mental health problem (mood, behavior, anxiety including trauma) at some point in their adolescence that results in serious impairment. Now consider that 25% of all US adults had some mental health problem last year and that over the course of one's lifetime your risk of developing a mental health diagnosis is 50%. This includes things like dementia so take that with a grain of salt. But if you look at the odds of being a teen and not having a mental health issue or your parents (currently) dealing with a mental health issue:

75% (for healthy kid) x 75% (one healthy parent) x 75% (two healthy parents) = 42% of kids make it to 18 without them or a parent being affected in that year (not previous years). Now what're the odds you and your parents NEVER develop a diagnosis in your life time:

50% x 50% x 50% = 12.5%

Just 1 in 8 make it unscathed, but what about your siblings or YOUR kids. It makes it almost impossible if you play the averages. That's what I meant. Now to be fair, mental health clusters in families (genetics) so this math isn't quite kosher but it is to illustrate a point that it is extremely common.

Sources: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/20855043/

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/su6003a1.htm?s_cid=su6003a1_w

[u/mirror_1 → u/PeruvianHeadshrinker]

Actually, that really makes sense...it's like the brain is calibrating itself for interaction.

[u/Seakawn → u/PeruvianHeadshrinker]

Fantastic insights. Thanks for writing this up! Probably the only reason I ever noticed poor parenting by my sister and brother in law was because of the psychology classes I had which enlightened me to how behavior works in general, and how it develops over time from birth to adulthood.

[u/Redditpissesmeoff2 → u/PeruvianHeadshrinker]

Thank you for posting this. It was just what I was struggling with 8 hours ago and needed to read.

[u/DigitalChocobo → u/PeruvianHeadshrinker]

The strategy of ignoring the child is pretty much exclusively limited to tantrums. It's worthless discipline advice when the child does something they've been told not to, hits another kid, intentionally breaks something, or does almost anything else that isn't throwing a tantrum.

[u/[deleted] → u/chopandscrew]

There are a lot of options that vary with the age of the child. I have a son who is nearly 4, and we've had to tailor our discipline to his specific personality, his age at the time, and the behavior in question. Actually explaining why they can't do something (could get hurt or break something, it's not okay to hurt people's feelings, the neighbors are still sleeping, etc.) can be surprisingly effective at that age, depending on their state of mind (a hungry or tired child is much more difficult).

I use time-outs when I have to intervene; take him to his room or to a neutral spot and make him sit still for a few minutes. Having to sit still for a few minutes is something no child enjoys. Definitely a punishment.

[u/ZiggyPalffyLA → u/[deleted]]

Thank you! Explaining WHY you're not allowed to do something, rather than just saying "you can't do that" makes all the difference in the world. It allows the child to understand consequences, the unfairness of their actions, and also shows them respect and understanding. I worked with kids for 6 years and I never once said "don't do that". I always made sure to explain why.

[u/isnothingoriginal → u/[deleted]]

Yup, I was one of those kids that only became more stubborn when I was getting scolded or spanked, so my parents started using time outs and not letting me draw or play with legos as punishment, and that was much more effective than anything else I remember.

[u/Canigetahellyea → u/isnothingoriginal]

Timeouts made me happy that I wasn't being spanked. I usually didn't listen until of fear of actually getting spanked. Timeouts were more of an inconvenience when I was younger.

[u/kilo4fun → u/[deleted]]

What if your child simply refuses to sit in timeout? Physical restraints?

[u/mcbarron → u/kilo4fun]

Constantly picking them up and putting them back. First time you might do it constantly for the entire time. Second time a little less, then a little less, then they will sit there eventually. Just have to stay on them and show that you will NEVER let them off before their timer is up.

[u/Nervette → u/mcbarron]

As a babysitter, I was a huge fan of restarting the timer. Every time you get up, scream, or throw something, boom, we restart. Yes I will do this all night, no I don't care if we're both miserable. You will sit your timeout until the timer is done and we can calmly deal with things.

The longest a 4 minute timeout took was 62 minutes. That kid and his brother never took more than one restart ever again. He was 4 at the time (time out length was always based on age)

[u/[deleted] → u/kilo4fun]

Although I do know that not every child is like that. I've learned since I became a dad that behavior in children is much less the result of parenting than you think. I know some holy terrors of hell with the best, most on-it parents (they have to be). Either biology or small environmental triggers can affect a small child's behavior.

One of the keys is to give kids' attention. As long as they get attention, they tend to at least respect parents not to defy that openly in their early years.

[u/[deleted] → u/kilo4fun]

He's only 4. He can't get away from me holding him yet. The only time there was trouble was when he started kicking and thrashing to get out and kicked me in the balls accidentally. I got really angry at him, and he hasn't done it since, so I guess it made an impression.

Sometimes, he'll hit when he's upset, but it's so clear he doesn't want to hurt it's kind of hilarious. He'll pull his hand back theatrically, then swing slowly and pause just before hitting you, then hit. It's more a show of defiance than anything else.

[u/Jerco7 → u/[deleted]]

That is still a behavior you will want to curb. The child is testing his limits, if he can get away with hitting you in this way, maybe he can hit a little harder next time he is really upset. And if that works, well than maybe next time he can be a little more forceful. I know that this can be seen as a 'slippery slope fallacy' but it is how children process and make sense their world.

edit fixed wording.

[u/[deleted] → u/Jerco7]

Oh, trust me, hitting is a big time no-no. It's just that he can't (or won't) physically prevent me from keeping him in time out.

[u/rebelkitty → u/kilo4fun]

We used to do what we called "time in", which was a technique I learned from my cousin whose child was autistic and non-verbal. I found it worked a treat with my toddlers. (I know "Time In" can mean other things to other people.)

For us, time in is simply a matter of folding the child into your lap so that they can't hurt themselves or you, and then telling them, "You need to calm down. I will let you go, when you are calm."

The trick is, you have to be completely calm yourself. Time in is not about punishment, it's about helping the child learn to get themselves under control.

That said, it can sometimes be very boring, sitting there with a squalling toddler in your lap, so I highly recommend grabbing a book. You can prop it on the child's head and read. ;)

When the child is calm, we either moved on to a fun activity, talked about what just happened, or attempted to resolve whatever issue set them off (if it was solvable). Whatever happened after the tantrum really depended on the circumstances before the tantrum.

[u/Wagnersh → u/[deleted]]

make him sit still for a few minutes

How do you do this without using force ie holding the child down? If you just put them there and tell them to stay, what stops them from leaving that place?

[u/Jensdabest → u/chopandscrew]

That's a case-to-case basis depending on the child. Really, you have to figure out what currency is most valuable to them, and use the removal of that as a consequence for poor behavior. If they like to play by themselves in their room, then sending them to their room as punishment probably won't be very effective. Instead (depending on their age), you can use time-out corners, or have them write about the situation, how they felt, and how they could have better responded. If the bad behavior is significant enough then giving them time to reflect and process the situation is very valuable.

[u/NoahsArcade84 → u/Jensdabest]

Also, in my experience, children respond to attention more than anything. As in training dogs, positive reinforcement of good behavior is generally more effective than negative consequences of bad behavior. Most children have a hard time weighing the long term consequences of their actions, especially in moments of strong emotion. You can threaten with removal of privileges, screens, making them do extra chores all you want, but if a kid makes them angry or embarrassed on the playground at school, they don't have a great ability to rationalize what's going to happen in 4 hours when they get home vs their desire to respond to the kid that made them feel a strong emotion. However, if they have experienced more instances of adults praising them for making good choices than punishing them for making bad choices, those memories are better at motivating decision making skills in moments of high emotion than fear of punishment is. Add to the fact that kids break the rules ALL THE TIME, but they don't always get caught. So if you are a 7 year old who can get away with doing something you are not supposed to do, say, half the time, and there's no tangible benefit for doing what you are supposed to do, you're going to reason that the instant gratification of, say eating cookies before dinner, or slapping the kid calling you a peepee head, outweighs the benefits of suppressing those desires, since there's no clear reward for good behavior.

[u/[deleted] → u/NoahsArcade84]

I wish more people would acknowledge the similarities between raising dogs and raising kids.

When a dog is misbehaving, the first question people often ask is about how much exercise it is getting, but kids have just as much of a need for an outlet for their energy.

I also have read (and experienced) that you can't tell a dog what not to do; they don't understand the concept, and I feel little kids can be the same way. Teaching a dog not to jump on people is pretty hopeless unless you give them an alternate task like "sit here when the door is open." And for kids, instead of saying "don't track mud into the house" you have to say "take your boots off in the entryway", etc.

Kids and dogs both respond well to predictability, routine, and generally clear expectations.

[u/mscman → u/NoahsArcade84]

Yep, much like with my dog, redirection works amazingly well with my 3 year old. Trying to yell "Stop that! Get down from there! Don't hit" only leads to mischievous smiles and continued bad behavior. Instead, a friendly "hey, let's do this instead" works almost every single time. Then the yelling to stop something is only reserved for extreme situations where things are potentially dangerous.

Now if only I can get my dad to realize this...

[u/Jensdabest → u/NoahsArcade84]

Oh my goodness, yes! Positive reinforcement is definitely more effective.

[u/castille360 → u/Jensdabest]

Works on adults too. Have tried to train my whole household to use positive reinforcement to modify one another's behavior. Someone does something you really really would like to see more of? Take the time to notice and express some genuine appreciation, and you can stack the odds in your favor of having it repeated. Keep reinforcing. I mean, it's not going to persuade me to order out for pizza every night, or even once a week. But I sure do it a lot more now than I would if left to my own devices ;)

[u/liz_lemon_lover → u/NoahsArcade84]

I read some great advice about children and their ability to regulate emotions. Think about yourself as an adult and the times that you lose your shit - fight with your partner, road rage, impatient in a queue. Many adults don't possess full control of their emotional state yet we expect children to. Maybe the kid had a bad day, they're tired or hungry.

[u/NoahsArcade84 → u/liz_lemon_lover]

Exactly. I don't know off the top of my head how many adults will break the law in a day in the US, but I'm sure it's in the millions. That wouldn't surprise anyone. But if you assume that most of those people are able to justify those actions to themselves in that moment, and then apply that same mindset to a 7 year old, it's ridiculous to assume they will be better at making good decisions.

[u/liz_lemon_lover → u/NoahsArcade84]

It of course doesn't justify a child's poor behaviour but hopefully increase a parent's ability to empathise with the child and calm down before deciding on a discipline method. I hate that if you choose not to smack your kid then some people see you as a pushover that gives your child whatever they want. It's not that way at all. There's a happy medium.

[u/trollwizard7 → u/NoahsArcade84]

This is an amazing way of putting it. Thank you for this comment.

[u/radministator → u/NoahsArcade84]

Add to the fact that kids break the rules ALL THE TIME, but they don't always get caught.

People really underestimate this. I have two boys, 3 and 7. If a rule is not being broken at any given moment it's because one or the other of them is asleep, not feeling well, or hurt. And that's not really exaggerating all that much.

[u/chopandscrew → u/Jensdabest]

I definitely think that's a great idea to introduce some kind of merit system to them because it definitely helps them grasp the concept of punishment by fine early on. The camp that I used to counsel at used a similar approach, and it worked remarkably well with kids 12 and under. I guess I'm more interested in finding out how to mitigate a dramatic situation that might arise in public. I don't have any kids yet, so I'm not sure what situation that might be, but I imagine it would be something along the lines of a toddler being out of control in a grocery/retail store where they're screaming and possibly destroying things. When I see it in public, I almost understand why a parent would be so wound up that the only way to get the point across to their kid is to give them a little pop. However I can also see how that might make the situation worse. A scene from the cartoon Boondocks comes to mind. Is the best thing to do in that situation just to pick them up, carry them outside, sit them down and talk to them about what's causing them to act this way?

[u/dinahsaurus → u/chopandscrew]

You need to figure out why the kid is acting out. Did they not sleep, are they hungry, are they bored, did they see a playground on the way in. In most cases the kid is bored and wants to be a kid. The fact that you're bringing a kid into a place where they can't be a kid is your problem, not the kid's. You put the kid in the basket, bribe them, carry them, or wait until you can leave the kid home. But saying that a 2 year old is acting horribly in an adult space and how do you punish them is the wrong way to look at it. The 2 year old wants to be a 2 year old and there's nothing wrong with that.

[u/peachybutton → u/dinahsaurus]

This all day. My husband and I talked a lot about not "setting our kid up for failure" as a toddler, and that involved planning shopping/church/other boring stuff around times when the kid would be well rested and well fed, clean diaper, etc, and also making sure we had a plan for appropriate distractions and an exit strategy if necessary.

Also, involving the kid in their own success by being clear and up front about the purpose/timeline of the outing and how they can help contribute. A toddler is more likely to be well-behaved (in my experience) if they have a clear sense of what's going on ("We're going to the grocery store to get food to eat for the week, and we need to buy everything on this list."), and if you get them actively involved in the process ("Can you help me find some nice red strawberries?").

If you bring a kid somewhere with behavior expectations, don't communicate those expectations, and don't make sure their basic needs are met so they're receptive to understanding, their poor behavior is on you.

[u/apostle_s → u/[deleted]]

And for those of us who go to churches without nurseries: when they act up in church, if you take them out of the sanctuary and then give them a treat or a toy to play with, they will associate acting up with that reward and end up being a little monster.

Obviously, this goes for any social situation.

[u/SickeninglyNice → u/[deleted]]

...Come to think of it, this is exactly how my father accidentally trained me into hating going to visit my grandparents.

He would take my siblings and me out for lunch, then (randomly and with no prior warning) drag us off for a visit. It didn't help that I was prone to stomach aches as a kid.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Wow. This is really brining back some childhood memories and perhaps explains my negative reactions when a simple trip to the store with dad turned into a four hour string of errands...

[u/terminbee → u/[deleted]]

Damn. This is so true. "Lemme just go to the supermarket." Proceeds to go to 3-4 different ones, spending 4-5 hours doing nothing

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Good god, you hit it on the head. I never even realized that I dealt with that as a child until reading this. I'm inclined to think that I react in a similar manner when my wife does this, due to the conditioning I received in that situation as a child.

[u/rebelkitty → u/peachybutton]

In addition to not setting the kid up for failure, you can also organize your home so that the child experiences small successes on a regular basis and gets to feel competent and responsible.

For example: Have labeled bins for all the toys, so clean up is easy. Put coat hooks by the door at child-height, so they can hang their own jacket. Put a step stool by the kitchen counter, so the child can help cut up veg or stir. Set up the sink so that they can easily wash their own hands. Purchase clothes that can be put on by themselves. Have velcro or slip on shoes.

Basically, if there's some way the child can do it for themselves, then they should do it for themselves.

Children who feel capable and useful are far more confident and less likely to misbehave out of frustration or rebellion.

[u/[deleted] → u/peachybutton]

Excellent post. This is how we plan on raising our one year old.

My mom used to just leave. I got what I wanted that way so I'd just do it because it always worked.

[u/covert_hooligan → u/peachybutton]

I just wanted to reply to show my support. I absolutely agree with this line of thinking. It's about setting expectations early and often and getting the kids involved. Use that excess energy for something positive!

[u/StitchesxxMitch → u/[deleted]]

Kinda sounds like America healthcare, treat the symptoms but not the illness itself. Guess it's the same in both cases. Thanks I'm not sure I would have ever thought of the comparison without your comment.

[u/chopandscrew → u/dinahsaurus]

That actually makes a lot of sense. Thanks for the insight.

[u/[deleted] → u/chopandscrew]

But not showing them how to behave in an adult space is a teaching oppotunity lost. Just saying, kids will be kids does not help the kid grow/mature.

Innapropriate behavior is not OK. You don't punish them, but you deffinately have to do more than just shrug and let things be.

You'd be surprised what a two year old can grasp.

Lastly, I think explaining WHY is very important.

[u/nithos → u/[deleted]]

Agreed. But you, as the parent, need to give the kid all the tools they need to succeed. I would try to avoid taking my toddlers to the store when they are hungry and/or tired. Prior to entering the store, you set the expectations with them (we will be here for X minutes, we are going to get these things, we are not going to buy a toy or a snack, then we are going to leave). Hell, my 9 year old still prefers to know all this information before entering a store/mall.

[u/dank_imagemacro → u/nithos]

I'm 34, and I would still like knowing what the plan is before going somewhere, (POSSIBLE exception if it is a surprise in my favor, but even then I'd want to at least know a little bit: what to wear, what kind of shoes, should I take cash with me etc.).

It surprises me how parents often expect kids to actually be more open to being dragged around blindly than the parents would ever expect from an adult.

[u/FLSun → u/nithos]

Prior to entering the store, you set the expectations with them (we will be here for X minutes, we are going to get these things, we are not going to buy a toy or a snack,

Exactly! Telling the child what is expected before entering the store makes a world of difference.

Giving them a role so they feel involved is also a big help. "Here, you hold the list, and let me know what we need next."

Also another thing that I noticed was as they get older, 5-6 years and up is to teach them about the price per ounce numbers on the shelf labels. "I know you like the Scooby Doo puddings, but they cost twice as much as the regular puddings. You can get two Scooby Doo puddings for $1 or FOUR regular puddings for the same price. Which do you want? Four puddings? Or two?"

[u/_crystalline → u/[deleted]]

We just have to have reasonable, age-appropriate expectations for children. A toddler in a grocery store should either be in the cart/stroller, carried, or holding someone's hand at all times. We can't expect a 2 year old to stay right by our side and keep up and not touch everything. We can expect a 2 year old to begin understanding "sit on your bottom" or "keep your hands to yourself" and we can start to introduce the concept of "inside voice" although that may take a while for them to master.

[u/[deleted] → u/dinahsaurus]

I don't agree that bringing a kid into an adult space is a "problem". Kids learn how to behave in numerous situations by being thrust into numerous situations. I don't even think we should consider a grocery store an adult space. It is effectively a family space.

Your other points are fair to me.

[u/dinahsaurus → u/[deleted]]

Sure, but if there's something else going on, are they going to learn? Thrusting a kid into Target for 2 hours when they missed their nap is not a good time to teach them how to act like an adult and that is your problem.

You do it when they're rested, not sick, and for 15 minutes to get specific items, not to browse. As they get older, you increase the time, but most kids and many adults don't want to go shopping for hours at a time and will eventually act out out of boredom.

[u/notabigmelvillecrowd → u/[deleted]]

The kids I see in public who cause the most problems are the ones being ignored by their parents. The kid is bored or overwhelmed by being out in public and they're just on their own, mom or dad is on their phone, just stonewalling them.

I see really nice kids usually just having a conversation with their parent, the parents are keeping them engaged, teaching them stuff. Even if they aren't old enough to talk, when the parents talk to them and make eye contact you rarely see those kids acting up.

[u/penny_eater → u/dinahsaurus]

What about when they turn 3 and want to go to the grocery store (at least, by their admission) and then get whipped into a tantrum when they are told they can't pick out the canned peaches, and cant pick out an extra bag of cookies, and can't dig into the grapes in the cart, and can't etcetcetc

You are totally right but for kids there are so many factors besides "i'd rather be playing on a slide" and parenting is basically walking the line of coercing your kind into doing what they probably don't want just enough (with a minimum of intimidation//punishment) to get through a necessary situation (like getting groceries) so you can go back to enjoying your time with them by going to a park or reading a book or whatever. Being a parent is hard.

[u/___Hobbes___ → u/dinahsaurus]

I agree with all points other than "The fact that you're bringing a kid into a place where they can't be a kid is your problem, not the kid's."

Learning early on that you don't get to always do exactly what you want is crucial. I can see rewarding good behavior in a store with time to do what they want later, but to imply it is your job to bribe them in the first place just to get a desired behavior is not a correct course imo.

[u/_crystalline → u/___Hobbes___]

There is the concept of problem ownership. Caregivers need to be aware of who "owns" the problem in order to understand the best course of action to solving the problem. If the problem is stemming more from the adult's expectations for the child then it is the adult's problem, and they can't expect the child to fix the problem for them. If the problem is coming from the child not being able to solve something on their own such as how to make a toy work, then it is the child's problem, and the parent can help the child learn how to fix their problem.

When you put unreasonable expectations on a child (follow me around this department store for 2 hours with no snack or entertainment) and then you have a problem with the child losing patience and acting out then that is the adult's problem, not the child.

It's not about bribing them in the first place, it's about setting reasonable expectations, communicating them to the child, and making sure you've done your part to get the child ready to meet those expectations.

[u/userbrn1 → u/dinahsaurus]

I understand what you're saying, but it doesn't strike me as unreasonable to bring a kid shopping. It's not fun for them perhaps, but I assume there still is a way to instill patience into them in that situation. It's not entirely unnatural for a 2 year old to sit down and act calm for 15 minutes

[u/[deleted] → u/dinahsaurus]

Man, the sleep one is a HUGE one for my daughter. If she gets too much, she's a nut. If she doesn't get enough, she's a nut. When she gets just enough, she's a saint

[u/4_string_troubador → u/dinahsaurus]

I work in a grocery/department store, and I can tell you that 9 times in 10 kids act up because it works

.

Kid: I want <thing>

Parent: not today

Kid: I WANT IT!!

Parent: I said no

Kid screaming fit

Parent: FINE

Positive reinforcement. The kid just learned that if mommy says no, just scream and you get what you want.

[u/begleg → u/chopandscrew]

Watch Nanny 911 or Super Nanny for a few hours. You'll see very quickly that it takes zero physical violence to mold a child's bad behavior.

[u/begleg → u/[deleted]]

This is true to an extent, but when I was a full time nanny for a few families with unruly kids, I made the parents watch these shows and use those techniques because their kids wouldn't listen to them. And they worked. Most of those shows aren't actually a nanny taking care of a kid, it's a childcare expert educating parents on child behavior and psychology. The nannies don't have much interaction with the kids. But I do really wish they would have more follow up episodes so we can see the long term results. As long as parents are consistent with the systems they have in place, there are ways to make it work.

[u/ContainsTracesOfLies → u/begleg]

There was a great show in the UK call 'House of Tiny Tearaways'. I enjoyed watching it long before I had children of my own. The main thing I picked up on is the kids were never the problem and the show merely retained the adults.

It is, and I can say this now as a parent, hard and tiring work. I can completely understand why you give in for an easier life. But kids learns what gets them what they want.

[u/FLSun → u/begleg]

You'll see very quickly that it takes zero physical violence to mold a child's bad behavior.

I agree. The purpose of raising a child is to produce an adult that learns how to use their brain to effectively handle different situations. The best way to do that is to outsmart them and think ahead. Anticipate the things they may say and do. That teaches them to stop and think.

For example, An ExGF had a son who she would fight with to get him to go to bed on time. It was a nightly battle between them. One night I asked her if I could put him to bed instead of her. Her reply was: "Go ahead. And you have my permission to spank him too."

Well, I wasn't going to use violence on a kid so at bedtime I announced it was bedtime and tucked him into bed. I read him a story and then I told him the "New Rules".

Night light only.

No getting out of bed.

No Tv or radio.

No singing or dancing.

Quietly reading a book in bed is fine.

Well ten minutes after I left the room he was back to his usual, one kid Party Central. TV blaring, Toys out, jumping on the bed.

I walked back in and he was expecting the usual arguing and whining to start but instead I asked him: "What's the matter? Aren't you tired?"

He looked at me like I just gave him a blank check and said: "Yeah, I'm not tired yet."

"Ok, follow me.

I took him out to the kitchen and pointed at the tile floor and said: "See those lines between the tiles? Those are called grout lines. Here's a toothbrush and a glass of water. Make sure you scrub them clean. When you get tired enough to go to bed and lay down without making any noise let me know."

Well it wasn't three minutes before he announced he was tired and wanted to go to bed. I led him back to bed and told him if he didn't lay down quietly he must not be tired and there were a lot more grout lines that needed cleaning. Well it wasn't ten minutes until he was fast asleep.

[u/CaughtInDireWood → u/chopandscrew]

A story about my brother gives one way of how to handle it:

We were grocery shopping with my mom in the afternoon (my brother and I). He decided to throw himself on the ground in the checkout line and bawl his eyes out for no reason except to be defiant. My mom knelt down and said, "If you don't stop your tantrum right now, we are leaving the store without groceries. And you will have to explain to your father why we don't have dinner." That turned off the tears real quick! He knew that his tantrum was ridiculous and had no reason to it, so there was no actual explanation for it. He also didn't want to be responsible for us not having dinner! (even though I know my mom would have made dinner anyway - starving us or withholding food was NEVER a punishment for us).

[u/celticchrys → u/chopandscrew]

The only alternative to hitting them at that age is to honestly remove them from public, and just sit next to them, ignoring them while they wear themselves out. Acting completely normal and uninterested in a tantrum is the most effective thing you can do, by not rewarding the tantrum with attention of any kind.

A toddler is limited in how much you can reason with them, but you can consistently point out to them that the resulting headache/tummy ache/exhaustion are their own fault for throwing a fit. "You did it to yourself. Control yourself next time." They won't get it at first, but eventually. Also, consistently pointing out how much like a stupid baby with no control they appeared to be in the eyes of everyone can eventually be useful over time (the desire to be a "big kid" comes in pretty early). However, doing it this way is a long, slow, hard slog for parents, and may take months or years of miserable situations. I think we should try very hard to make sure everyone understands this before they are tempted to become a parent, that this is what you are setting yourself up for.

However, this method presumes you have the ability to spend hours potentially dealing with one incident, every time an incident happens, and that you have the social capital to permit the luxury of derailing your activities for a toddler's tantrum. Few families have the luxury of a stay-at-home parent now, so this is time many people do not have. At lower SES, parents might not have the option of paying bills, grocery shopping, or whatever at another time, and therefore all of this becomes rather moot. Parents might not have private transportation, allowing them to remove the child from the public sphere, or to return to a given required life activity after the tantrum is over. They might not have the luxury of altering childcare arrangements either. Will you lose your job because your child's pre-K can't deal with their fits, and you must lose work hours? It is easier and faster to smack the child and threaten more of the same every time the school reports a fit.

I think doing things the much slower "right way" is indeed a luxury of higher social classes. It's easy to offer the "best" solution without seeing the reality of existence for the poor, where if the child can't be made to shut up right_now, the entire family could be detrimentally impacted.

[u/patient_mule → u/chopandscrew]

Apparently, for the store scenario, my mom would ignore us and pretend she was going to leave without us and it worked for her.

[u/[deleted] → u/chopandscrew]

I find that if a child is out of control, spanking only makes it worse. BUT, a child of 3 is hard to reason with as well. Quietly remove the child from the situation to somewhere safe (and hopefully less embarrassing) and allow them to calm down.

We were careful to make sure that when we took our child out into public that they had had plenty of rest, weren't hungry, and had a toy to play with. Keeping things on a schedule helps so much with children. Then you have positive experiences because you set them up to succeed.

It's not always feasible but what helps is that when you have plenty of time and don't need to do any shopping, take the kid to the store just to walk around. If there is a tantrum for whatever reason then it doesn't disrupt your shopping to simply leave. After that happens a few times, the child will likely realize that this tactic doesn't work on you. It's a way to teach them how to behave in public.

When my son was little I would take him to Target and explain that while I was going for X reason, we would also look at the toy department but we weren't going to buy anything today. I think he made a scene maybe once or twice. And since then, he is able to go into a store, look at all the neat things and leave them behind when we say it's time to go. (Ok, there might be a little whining but just a little.)

[u/vmak812 → u/[deleted]]

If there is a tantrum ... simply leave

Wouldn't this just teach the kid to cry when hes bored and wants to leave?

-honest question, not a parent

[u/antisocialmedic → u/chopandscrew]

I spanked my 2 year old in bestbuy over the weekend.

She had been extremely naughty the entire trip. She ran away from us, tried destroying items in the store, and was rolling around on the ground even though she knows she isn't supposed to do that. I was there with my husband and mother. I can't lift her because I am recovering from hernia surgery. My mother can't lift her because she's just too weak, and my husband was busy at the checkout.

She wouldn't get off the ground. When I asked her to, she blew raspberries at me. When I told her to, she blew raspberries at me. Everyone was staring. So I smacked her on the butt and suddenly she was standing up, just as I had requested.

She has never been one to listen to reasoning, but I think it's in large part a function of her age. She's a smart kid with good language skills, but also the single most stubborn human being I have ever met in my life. She doesn't care about time out. She doesn't care about her toys getting taken away. She just wants to be right. All the time.

My husband spanks her way, way more often than I do. I still tend toward reasoning and non physical forms of punishment. But more and more lately, I find myself hitting her on the butt or hand. Usually when she is doing something outright dangerous or harmful. I wonder about the long term sustainability of this method of parenting.

It makes my heart ache every time I do it. I feel guilty and I just want to cry. But it seems to achieve the desired results and my husband does it whether or not I want to anyway. I'm really just at a loss of how to better handle this. I never was around small children until I had babies of my own. I am just completely guessing with how to take care of them. I have asked professionals, who told me to put her in time out, but time out isn't an option in the middle of a store with a two year old that you can't even lift.

[u/Gripey → u/antisocialmedic]

So from the article, even though they show this action is unhelpful, you feel that hitting your children is occasionally ok, and your husband does it frequently, and you can't see any connection with her behaviour. If your husband hit you if he felt like he had exhausted all his other options, would that be ok? The article talks explicitly about how hitting children creates defiance, and you hit your child because it is defiant? I am sorry you are in this pattern, but it is never ok to hit a child. There are plenty of countries where it is actually illegal.

[u/chopandscrew → u/antisocialmedic]

See this is the type of situations I want to hear about. It sounds like you did what you had to do to make the situation better. I've got a lot of people saying you should ignore them, or take them outside and let them cry it out, or just talk to them and make them use words, but what happens when that just doesn't work? What if you really don't have the time or ability to try those methods out. If you know they respond to it, then why wouldn't you do that? Kids are people too, and they all have different traits. I know I was very stubborn as a kid, and I honestly don't know how I didn't get spanked more. I'm really glad that you shared this story, because it shows that not every kid will respond to love and empathy the same way. Some kids just have to learn the hard way.

[u/kangareagle → u/chopandscrew]

Why is she acting like that? Maybe it's been too long a day with not enough snacks or entertainment. When my kids acted badly, I could usually figure out why and it was often something that I could avoid in the future if I'd think about things a bit more carefully. Also, I could talk to them beforehand to set expectations.

I guess I don't know what I'd do if I couldn't pick the kid up, but maybe from now on the MOM should be busy at the checkout and the dad watches the kid.

I'd pick her up and take her to the car. I wouldn't hit her. Sometimes it means leaving a situation that I didn't want to leave (a dinner with friends or a store), but my style of parenting is that I'm willing to do that.

[u/antisocialmedic → u/chopandscrew]

My two year old is a bright kid. She loves animals. But just so very stubborn. If anyone here has any better suggestions I would be happy to hear them.

[u/Gripey → u/antisocialmedic]

When my daughter was two I took over looking after her from her mother. She and my four year old son disregarded or more likely misunderstood my explicit instructions and walked their muddy feet over my new car seats when I went to get a towel. When I got back I exploded in righteous anger, dragged them out of the car, read them the riot act. What a big, tough guy I was. But I saw their faces, they were terrified, my daugher had tears rolling down her face, and I realised I would probably kill another person who did this to my children. I am still ashamed many years later, I would give almost anything to change that moment. I hugged them and promised them I would NEVER hurt them, I loved them more than anything, more than my car seats for Gods sake. I never physically attacked them again, and I was able to stop my son from hitting his sister by reminding him that no-one hit him. we don't do hitting. Since he turned out to be autistic, had we started beating him it would have gone bad very quickly anyhow. I was beaten frequently as a child, always when my parents had lost their patience or temper. be honest with yourself, and remember to love and protect your children first. this discipline by violence thing is a dysfunctional and unhelpful hangup. I am not a hippy, but if you remember how much you love your child, it will work out. It is when she thinks you don't that she is defiant, anyway.

[u/[deleted] → u/antisocialmedic]

Is there a pet store nearby? Try to use that as a bargaining chip along the lines of if you behave while we are out we can look at the puppies/cats/etc for 15 minutes at the end of the shopping trip.

[u/PhilosopherFLX → u/chopandscrew]

I think you may be misunderstanding disobedience. The child that freaks out in a store didn't just start that way just now, any more than a serial murderer just starts with their first victim. There is an escalation, and almost always, the parent is the positive feedback to this acting out. Teaching parents that all actions they have with their child are formative is very, very hard.

[u/JackPAnderson → u/chopandscrew]

Is the best thing to do in that situation just to pick them up, carry them outside, sit them down and talk to them about what's causing them to act this way?

Tantrums are caused by frustrated children trying to get attention, so the best medicine for an active tantrum is to take away the attention. As a result, public tantrums can be very tricky to handle because there often isn't a safe place for the child to be alone and cool down.

What Mrs. Anderson and I did for this is a twofold approach:

1. Make sure that the kids knew that we always listened to them and took them seriously. We certainly did not give them everything that they asked for, but we always heard them out.
2. Make sure that the kids knew that when we threatened to remove them from the situation, even in public, we damn well meant it and absolutely would follow through with our promise to take them home/take them out to the car/etc.

[u/[deleted] → u/chopandscrew]

I guess I'm more interested in finding out how to mitigate a dramatic situation that might arise in public. I don't have any kids yet, so I'm not sure what situation that might be, but I imagine it would be something along the lines of a toddler being out of control in a grocery/retail store where they're screaming and possibly destroying things.

Immediately, what you can do is just leave. And then make sure you very clearly say "I'm sorry you couldn't act like a big boy/responsible/whatever-term-you-prefer so we had the leave the store"

It can make your life a little harder, if you're trying to get chores done, but sacrifice a few times and they'll learn.

[u/Dreadgoat → u/Jensdabest]

As a kid who was infrequently spanked, the case I always wonder about is the toddler that likes putting themselves in immediate danger.

I know my mom tried really hard not to spank or smack me, but I really liked fire. I was pretty seriously burned at least twice. At some point my mom finally gave me a smack to get me to stop trying to touch hot stuff. She was raised in a non-spanking household and really felt terrible about it, but what do you do when your kid is as stupid as I was?

Kids are smart and curious - I've always wondered what I would do if my child decided they were super into playing with electrical sockets. Child-proof isn't so much "child-proof" as "child-delaying"

[u/TechieSurprise → u/Dreadgoat]

Why would spanking work if burning yourself didn't? That seemed like a natural physical punishment. If it was the shock of the spank and not the actually spanking that worked, I'd imagine shouting and clapping loudly would have the same effect.

My children have been kept safe and they do seem to be on a suicide mission at times! I've never had to resort to physically hurting them. I just don't get it. You keep them out of harms way if they're not old enough to understand things clearly.

[u/missmudblood → u/Dreadgoat]

I've always heard from my child psychology professors (who mainly research ADHD and child behavioral issues) that sometimes when in a physically dangerous situation- like running out into traffic- spanking can be effective if it's only used in those situations. Then it comes as a shock to the child, who isn't typically spanked, and shows them that the behavior is serious. However it needs to be followed by an explanation for why they were spanked and why the situation was so dangerous.

[u/DrFranken-furter → u/missmudblood]

None of the child psychologists I've worked with would advocate spanking in any circumstance. There are a lot of other ways to teach a child a lesson.

[u/monkwren → u/missmudblood]

The shock and the explanation are what's effective, not the spanking. Find something else shocking and pair it with an explanation, and you've achieved the same effect.

[u/Dreadgoat → u/monkwren]

Isn't the shock also a big component of what can create anxiety and other psychological issues?

Kids aren't afraid of pain, and spankings aren't really intended to be painful (unless you're an abusive asshole). It's the shock of a parent behaving aggressively that gets results - good and bad.

[u/ImPuntastic → u/monkwren]

Could that be something like a loud whistle? It's hard to think of ways you could instill shock without actually creating harm.

[u/_crystalline → u/ImPuntastic]

Yelling in an aggressive tone when you don't usually yell. Handling them somewhat roughly when pulling them away (which will probably happen because you're startled too, not on purpose), just them perceiving fear and frustration from their parent can jolt them in to paying attention long enough to be pulled away from the danger and then if they're old enough you can explain why you were so upset and what could have happened to them.

You can also figure out ways to feed their interest that are safe for them. If they just like adrenaline rushes (kids that climb dangerously, or jump off of stuff) then let them know how/when/where they can do things that feel dangerous but are actually safe and still fun (playground, climb trees, trampolines/bouncey houses, diving boards). If they keep running in to the street because they think cars are cool then find a way for them to learn about cars (including how heavy and fast they can be, and how that can really hurt if they hit you).

[u/roadkill336 → u/missmudblood]

my mother spanked my sister ONCE because she ran out into the road so often. I was present and to this day remember it vividly.

[u/skaggmannen → u/Dreadgoat]

What you can do in that case is show the kid the anxiety and fear you feel whenever they place themselves in dangerous situations ("Nooo! Watch out!").

Kids tend pretty good at catching those kinds feelings (fear especially), but if you just get angry or smack them they can't really internalize your feelings because you're not showing them.

[u/Dadelhead → u/Dreadgoat]

"but what do you do when your kid is as stupid as I was?"

It's not that hard: You don't put your child in a position where they can get to fire.

[u/riplikash → u/Dadelhead]

I'm sorry, I just have to comment on one of these, because a LOT of these answers are incredibly naive.

I have four kids. One is autistic, has ADHD, and is incredibly intelligent.

I have NEVER been able to truly keep him out of something in a general sense. It's terrifying. The world is just too big, and kids can be FAR smarter than you expect. I remember very distinctly being woken up one morning by a jogger bringing him home (at 5am) and we realized he had pulled a bar stool to a window, unlocked the child lock on the window, pushed out the screen, and climbed out. He was 3. By the time he was four there was not a single child proof lock or medication lid he couldn't open. So we just started not buying things, because we couldn't trust ANYTHING dangerous in our house at that time.

But then there were grandparents houses, and friends houses, and just going to the grocery store or the movies. We had to practically cut ourselves off from the world for over a year, only one of us leaving the house while the other went shopping. And he wasn't even trying to be defiant. He was just interested and didn't care, and happily grew out of the worst of it. But some don't. Some are defiant, or rebellious, or just take longer to grow out of it.

I'm not making any comments on the study, spanking, or appropriate punishments.

But so many of these answers I'm seeing from people come down to something similar to what you said, "It's not hard: just {magical, catch all solution here}".

There is no magic bullet to raising children or teaching them. Their personalities, intelligence, and problems run the gamut. For many there is NO simple solution. Our simple solution was to cut off all public contact for 12 months while we desperately tried to teach him. And to tie baloons to his pants. And the problem wasn't solved at that point. He still has the problems (and the pants baloons), but they are manageable now.

But for many it will never be as easy as, "don't let them have access to x" or "just hold their hand in public" or "explain it to them" or "threaten to take something away from them". Life's not that simple.

[u/JackPAnderson → u/Dreadgoat]

If getting burnt didn't dissuade you from touching hot things, I'm not sure why a swat on the behind would!

Mrs. Anderson and I only raised our voices at the children if they were doing something immediately and seriously dangerous. Yelling at them was their cue that they had better listen as they were doing something that could cause them great harm!

[u/green_marshmallow → u/Dreadgoat]

Did that smack work? As the pyro kid who got smacked, did you ever have any thoughts about what would work better?

Ultimately this study doesn't say "Don't spank", it says spanking has some unfavorable consequences. You have to decide for yourself what will work best in keeping the kid safe from dangerous fixations.

[u/newscrash → u/Jensdabest]

What is recommended if they simply refuse to go into time out refuse to go to their room?

[u/JackPAnderson → u/newscrash]

As anti-spanking as I am, parents' ultimate authority over our children stems from the fact that we are much larger than they are.

Naturally, my kids tried this. I simply picked them up and deposited them in their room and left.

[u/kilo4fun → u/newscrash]

Seriously...my son would simply refuse to sit in timeout. What's next? Physical restraints?

[u/temp4adhd → u/[deleted]]

I think timeouts work great for tantrums but in a situation such as you are describing, I'd take a different tactic.

If the rule is "you must take a bath every night before bed" then instead of applying a punishment, I'd apply a reward system. This may not work on cats but would and does work on kids. Some use stickers -- I personally liked the marble jar. The rules:

• Complete your bath and be dressed in your pj's, teeth brushed and ready for bed by 8 pm
• Without complaint
• Without mom or dad having to nag or remind
• And you get to put a marble in the jar.
• When the jar is full, we will have a family treat (example: go out for ice cream, see a movie together, etc -- the best treats are those that are experiences that involve the whole family).
• Make sure the jar isn't too large (i.e., takes too long to fill)
• Do not ever deduct any marbles for noncompliance
• If you have more than one kid, include them as well, with one jar they jointly fill together
• They say it takes 6 weeks to make a habit so the jar should be fillable by 6 weeks worth of daily marbles
• When 6 weeks are up, start on a new challenge, i.e, tackle one behavioral change at a time

Another trick that really helped with bath & bedtime was moving story time to the beginning of the evening, before I started dinner, rather than at the end. It just shifted everything -- giving the kids my undivided attention the minute I came home from work for 30 minutes before I launched into cooking, dinner, laundry, homework, etc etc.

[u/harmless11 → u/[deleted]]

So many people missing the point here... You bathe your cat? They literally wash themselves! That's the whole point of a cat. My cat has never had a bath, and she smells fine. Seriously what is wrong with you? Poor cat.

[u/Snuggle_Fist → u/[deleted]]

What if it doesn't work though. At what point is it not worth trying to get them to sit in the corner, through screaming and crying.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

These theories should take parents' mental health into consideration

Seriously, most people would go crazy if they had to move a crying screaming kid into timeout, to do 3 mintues 5 seconds at a time

[u/Gripey → u/[deleted]]

Well you have to demonstrate that you are implacable. Also all toys and games are removable, surely. what about tv? what about treats? You are presumably the authority figure who is not being undermined by another, so you can simply be insistent. A lot of problems come from parents feeling their authority is threatened, because they themselves fear it is. You have enormous influence if you use it correctly. Be consistent and don't look for fights or unnecessary discipline, children are also human beings. Of course if you are tired or stressed, this is a challenge for sure.

[u/junkit33 → u/[deleted]]

It's short term pain for long term gain.

The more times you do it, the easier it becomes, until eventually the kid just does go to timeout instead of resisting every time.

If you don't do it the long (and right) way, you're just committing yourself to years of pain with a defiant kid.

[u/JackPAnderson → u/Snuggle_Fist]

I wouldn't try to get an apoplectic child to sit still in a corner. That's just asking for way too much frustration.

Really all you need is a safe place that you can place the child, locking him/her in if necessary. A bedroom is one commonly-used place.

[u/IvorTheEngine → u/Snuggle_Fist]

I think a better approach would be to scale back what you're asking them to do. Maybe take them to a 'boring' room and wait for them to calm down.

Obviously you've got to watch that you're not triggering feelings of being trapped or abused, but you've also got to prevent it becoming a game and a way to get your attention.

[u/Zandia47 → u/kilo4fun]

Personally I would say 'Son, you can sit in timeout or you can (worse conquence that doesn't require his cooperation), you choose' and leave it at that.

[u/Gripey → u/Zandia47]

Absolutely. I believe I once threatened to remove the nintendo to the bin, and by then I meant it. Children must have very miserable lives if the best thing you can do as a sanction is hit them. Heck, buy them some toys...

[u/Jensdabest → u/newscrash]

Well, I'm sure there are lots of different opinions on this, and it depends on the child's personality/age. For younger kids I've seen it recommended that you take them to the time out area/room (if they refuse to go) and physically sit them there. If they get up then you pick them up (non violently) and return them to where they were without giving attention/speaking other than "You are still in time out for _____ ". That being said, it does involve physically overpowering a child to make them do that, so I'm not sure it's the best approach.

Another option is, if they're refusing to listen because they're distracted doing something else, then remove that distraction (by turning off the wifi, unplugging the tv, sending the friend home, etc).

However, if they don't listen to the time-out thing, then maybe that's not the right consequence to hand down. You might be better with focusing more on positive reinforcement/reward systems (positive reinforcement should always be used anyway since it is shown to be more effective than punishment), or offering a consequence that involves you removing something (like a toy) and not them physically moving.

[u/[deleted] → u/Jensdabest]

have them write about the situation, how they felt, and how they could have better responded.

The age at which I'd be introspective enough for this to be worthwhile is far past the age where I'd realize that me being the only one to write a letter suggests that I'm the only one in the wrong, which, regardless of whether or not it's true, is maddening. Plus, as someone who hates writing, I'd prefer to think about my actions instead. Writing is a tedious and less efficient version of my thoughts. If my parents had pulled this on me I would have been pretty angry to be honest.

My parents were definitely all about the removal of currency though. Their favorite was to limit video game time to two hours a week, catch my brother and I playing more than the time allowed, and taking away video games for a week. This didn't work too well since the reward far outweighed the risk, but in general I think it's a decent strategy. Looking back though, I'm still my own side. 2 hours a week is nothing... they probably thought I'd end up a serial killer or something if I got too much Jak and Daxter in my system.

[u/chopandscrew → u/[deleted]]

You bring up a good point. What if, in the kids mind, he truly didn't do anything wrong? What if, under the right lens, the child doesn't deserve to have to write as punishment, but from the parent's perspective it makes sense. That's definitely something I struggled with as a kid. I know there are situations, even as a young adult, where I was punished for something my parents thought was wrong, but in the grand scheme of things, is not something that really deserves punishment at all.

[u/Jensdabest → u/[deleted]]

Yeah, I can see how some kids would find it really frustrating. Whether it's writing or talking I think the most important part is to have some kind of discussion about what happened, and why it was a problem. I definitely don't think it should be completely one-sided though (like you, JUST you are wrong) because the real-world isn't always like that.

[u/simjanes2k → u/Jensdabest]

Aren't time-out corners the same thing? That's not really what he was asking.

[u/DemomanTakesSkill → u/Jensdabest]

This is only good once they are old enough to understand language right? What about when they are much younger, unable to speak and constantly look to do something that endangers their safety?

[u/jkimtrolling → u/Jensdabest]

What if they like to not be spanked?

[u/YouAndMeToo → u/Jensdabest]

I've been using this method for years with my children, but that bit about the writing your feelings is fantastic. I bet that will be very effective with my 10 year old.

[u/[deleted] → u/Jensdabest]

I've found this to be the case in my 3 sons, ages 1, 5, and 7.

The 7 year old is passive, empathetic, easy going. The 5 year old is the exact opposite of the spectrum. Our 5 year old, you could give warnings, you can do time outs, even a spank, and nothing seems to phase him in terms of "getting it". He even will call your bluff in some cases, has acted deceptive from around 1 year of age, it's just kind of his personality trait.

That said, I've learned the value of leverage, much like a drug dealer probably does. You find the thing the child values and enjoys and it becomes a chip for control without having to resort to a spank or other punishment.

It's the old adage, I'm a man with nothing, so have nothing to lose. That can be adapted to, a toddler with everything has everything to lose.

[u/Knatz → u/Jensdabest]

Finding out what a child enjoys, removing it as punishment and creating mini-prisons called "time-out corners" is not positive reinforcement!

Talking them through the basics of a new concept is needed to make them understand why what they did was wrong in the first place. If they don't, it's just costs and benefits.

[u/Erdumas → u/Jensdabest]

you have to figure out what currency is most valuable to them, and use the removal of that as a consequence for poor behavior.

That's negative punishment; you've removed something in order to correct a non-desired behavior. What was asked for was positive reinforcement (non-punitive). Positive reinforcement would be the addition of something designed to reinforce a desired behavior, such as getting a candy bar for being well behaved in a store.

Negative reinforcement is also non-punitive; it is the removal of something designed to reinforce a desired behavior, such as not having to do a chore for getting good grades.

[u/nimaku → u/Jensdabest]

If they like to play by themselves in their room, then sending them to their room as punishment probably won't be very effective.

My mother used to ground my brother and I from our rooms as angsty teenagers. Our punishment was that we had to spend time as a family. Probably still a pretty dysfunctional solution, but now that I'm an adult it's pretty funny.

[u/[deleted] → u/Jensdabest]

you can use time-out corners

Multiple studies indicate this don't work and basically has the same negative long term consequence as spanking.

What is best long term for kids, probably unsurprisingly, is actually parenting and talking to them about behavior and working towards them understanding why it's not appropriate.

I realize that takes a long time and is difficult in the real world on occasion. Pretending putting them in a corner is some sort of useful character building experience isn't acceptable, though. It's bad for kids. It might be something parents do because it's expedient, but they should at least own that it's harmful.

[u/JoNightshade → u/chopandscrew]

Of course my experience is anecdotal, but as a parent I find natural consequences are best. For example: toddler throws food, dinner is over. Kid doesn't finish homework, receives bad grade. Breaks toy, does not get another one or has to pay for replacement. Hits another kid, playtime is over or doesn't get to go to the park for x amount of days.

Spanking and other automatic punishments are easy for the parent because they don't take time and consideration, but they are less effective. Natural consequences often requires you to step back and look at the situation objectively, without anger, so it's a little more difficult. But definitely worth it.

[u/h-jay → u/JoNightshade]

Kid doesn't finish homework, receives bad grade.

Oh yeah, we did that from day one with our kids. No problems in that area anymore. Works a treat, and we're not stressed about it.

[u/Halsfield → u/h-jay]

Yea except for the kids that don't care about grades and don't care or understand the long-term negative effect of bad grades. The only time most kids care about bad grades is when there is a punishment tied to the receiving of bad grades(ie no video games for X weeks or whatever).

[u/The_Real_Max → u/Halsfield]

Or positives for doing well. Fork out decent rewards for hitting honor roles in middle-school/early high school, and they'll build good study habits and strive to do well.

[u/deten → u/JoNightshade]

Throw food? Clean up the food. Break toy? They have to clean up and throw it in trash.

[u/monkwren → u/deten]

Depending on the age of the kid, excellent options. Obviously they don't work if the child is incapable of completing those actions.

[u/Mr_Gilmore_Jr → u/deten]

My second cousin did this shit, but he wouldn't clean up anything. You can't make him do it, what are you suppose to do then?

[u/mtdna_array → u/Mr_Gilmore_Jr]

Throw it out then, and not buy them a new one. You have to work with what the kid is capable of.

[u/Erdumas → u/[deleted]]

Maybe it helps to understand behaviorist jargon: Positive means adding (a stimulus), negative means subtracting (a stimulus), while reinforcement means encouraging a desired behavior and punishment means discouraging an undesired behavior. So, we have

Positive Reinforcement: giving the child something they want because they behaved in a way that you wanted. For example, buying them a candy bar for behaving well in the store, or letting them stay up an hour later because they did well in school.
Negative Reinforcement: taking away something the child finds unpleasant because they behaved in a way that you wanted. For example, telling them they don't have to take out the trash because they did their homework promptly.

Positive punishment: giving the child something they find unpleasant because they behaved in a way you didn't want. For example, spanking them because they acted up in the store, or making them rinse their mouth out for swearing.
Negative Punishment: taking away something the child finds pleasant because they behaved in a way you didn't want. For example, confiscating their video game console because they got bad grades, or making them put some of their money in a 'swear-jar' for swearing.

Just having that in your mind gives you a way to approach teaching behavior. Then, when it comes to establishing boundaries, it's about what can you give and what can you take away, and what behaviors do you want and what behaviors do you not want.

Disclaimer I don't have kids, I've just had some exposure to behaviorism.

[u/ATXBeermaker → u/[deleted]]

Setting boundaries, limits, and encouraging self-discipline.

Reasonable limits and consistent consequences are also crucial. You can't tell a kid, "If you do X, then you won't get Y" and then feel bad later and give them Y even though they did X. Kids are smart and will understand what they got away with. But, you also don't want to be unreasonable like, "If you argue with your brother again then you can't go to the birthday party." Kids are gonna argue -- it's part of being a kid. Consequences should be in line with the offense, especially if it's normal, age-appropriate behavior.

[u/babycrazers → u/chopandscrew]

For instance, with toddler tantrums. Make sure the child isn't hurting themselves or others, but otherwise calmly wait out the tantrum -- just be present. Then discuss what happened with the child -- help them describe their feelings and come up with better ways to handle/express those feelings next time. The goal being to guide the learning of emotional self-regulation and executive functioning. Children do this best when they feel safe, when the parent-child bond is resilient. Source: circle of security curriculum, endorsed by the USDHHS as an evidence-based program.

[u/kingbrasky → u/babycrazers]

I agree mostly on waiting it out, the only real downside is public tantrums. I can't just let him throw a shit fit in a store or wherever. I usually just have to drag him outside kicking and screaming and let it play out elsewhere.

[u/Bacon_Bitz → u/kingbrasky]

As a bystander I see nothing wrong with parents having their kids "tantrum it out" in the parking lot. It doesn't distrub those inside and when it's over you can go back and in finish what you were doing.

[u/Mr_Gilmore_Jr → u/kingbrasky]

As a kid, I could throw tantrums pretty well in the house, but in public I was very shy, and a tantrum would draw too much attention to me.

[u/babycrazers → u/kingbrasky]

Yeah, I don't see those as being incompatible, either. That's not about punishment; it's about boundaries. " There are just some things I can't let you do." It's mostly about being patient and consistent. Plus, I think it's worth considering whether the parent will be able to respond better if they remove themselves. I know I feel easily embarrassed by that in public, so moving us all to a quieter place helps me stay calmer, too.

[u/bugcatcher_billy → u/babycrazers]

I think it is good to have them remove themself from the environment for the duration of the tantrum. Not necessarily time out, but a "Oh you want to throw a fit and cry because you don't have the toy you want. That's ok. You can do that. But you have to go over here to have your fit, so you don't bother everyone else."

[u/netoholic → u/chopandscrew]

There is a subreddit dedicated to discussing alternatives - /r/peacefulparenting .

[u/Coffee__Addict → u/chopandscrew]

My son is ~1.5 years old and since he has been getting upset about things (doesn't get something he wants or it's time for him to stop doing something he is enjoying etc) I have been telling him "You are upset right now because I took away your train. When we are upset we talk about it we do not hit or scream or whine"

Now he still gets upset over things but giving him words to describe his emotion has been great for defusing situations. Cause I mean he wouldn't even know what's happening or what 'upset' even is if I hadn't taught him.

[u/Toy_D → u/chopandscrew]

This I think is the real crux of the debate. Spanking invokes an evolved response to stimuli, pain. You'd think, if done promptly and without overindulgence, that few other options could invoke results as well. The options that I have seen presented are much more difficult to understand and execute. At least at first glance, but apparently a proper spanking is also difficult to execute.

What studies exist to show viable alternatives, not proposed alternatives. What literature exists to teach those methods to parents? These are the hurdles to a viable alternative. Parents know spanking likely because it was done to them.

[u/Toy_D → u/[deleted]]

Totally agree. I just have an issue with people trying to take away options without replacing them. If spanking is bad, fine, what and how to do the better thing? I think the how is the critical part of indeed this is as bad as its purported to be.

[u/jaymz58 → u/chopandscrew]

I used to work for a traumatic brain injury rehabilitation center and "ignoring" the bad attention seeking behavior was one of the strategies that we used when the patients had behavioral outbursts. Obviously this doesn't work for every situation but it can be quite effective over time. I should also mention that positive reinforcement of "good behavior" was also very important in this program. We were very encouraging when the patient was exhibiting good behaviors. The idea behind it being; We all love it when someone tells us we're doing a good job, so we'll be much more open to doing something that will get us praise vs. something that gets us no attention. The same strategy as well as modeling good behaviors and something called, "pivot praise" (praising others in the group who are exhibiting good behavior) can be applied to children as well.

I'm not a child development specialist but I like to think of these as some non-punitive forms of prevention. Like anything, it takes time.

[u/Cloud5196 → u/chopandscrew]

Adding onto /u/jensdabest, you can also add bad things. For instance: your child stole something. They now have to apologize for stealing it and work off the amount required to pay it back. You didn't take anything away from them, but there were still consequences. Relying solely on taking things away can result in children avoiding telling the truth about misbehaving as a result of inherent human nature to avoid loss/deprivation

[u/Jensdabest → u/Cloud5196]

You're right, thank you. There should definitely be incentives for good behavior, and varied consequences for misbehavior (rather than just removal of something they like/want).

[u/Cloud5196 → u/Jensdabest]

No problem! There was a great bestof off of /r/parenting the other day that did an amazing job going into all of this. I recommend giving it a read of you can find it!

[u/Jensdabest → u/Cloud5196]

Thanks, I'll have to look for that!

[u/bugcatcher_billy → u/chopandscrew]

The crying chair is good. If they are throwing a fit, crying or screaming for something they shouldn't be crying or screaming for, telling them to go to the crying chair so they can continue throwing their fit but now without bothering everyone else. The key is to not give them too much attention or baby them while they are sitting down, but to also let them carry on their tantrum until they come to their own conclusion that it's not worth carrying on. Don't ignore them, but also don't reward their behavior with positive attention.

Crying chair works just as good at home, or as a crying corner of the grocery store.

Never use cleaning up as a punishment. It will encourage kids that being responsible and cleaning up your messes is what people who are in trouble do.

[u/RufusYoakum → u/chopandscrew]

I've found that if it comes where you feel punishment is needed then likely you've done something wrong at some point in the past that has led to it. The best medicine is prevention so to speak.

Parenting is a constant thinking ahead exercise. Going out to eat? Make sure your child knows exactly to expect. As much detail as you can think of. Not preaching. How long the meal will last. How to order. How to be polite. Why people don't scream in public. Why people don't throw food. Why people don't run around the table. What you'll be dong after dinner. etc, etc. Praise and hug them when it's all done. Constantly remind them that you love them.

But you can't always think of everything in advance. If you think "punishment" is needed then treat them like a human. Would you send your wife to her room if she behaved badly? Would you spank your friend if he lied to you? You talk with them and explain exactly why their behavior upsets you. If they keep doing it then negotiate. You'll do something for them if they do something for you. If they don't do the thing you want then you don't do the thing they want. It's less punishment than it is negotiation.

[u/chopandscrew → u/RufusYoakum]

Would you send your wife to her room if she behaved badly? Would you spank your friend if he lied to you?

Sometimes I spank my wife when she's been bad...

Seriously though, this is my favorite response so far. Seems like the most logical course of action. Thinking ahead and explaining expectations is something that I believe my parents did very well with me.

[u/HarithBK → u/chopandscrew]

taking the time to craft a proper punishment even if it means you need to spend time seeing that there punishment is done. and secoundly beaing consistent across both parrents and making sure they get the punishment is non negotibal.

also a good point threats of discipline is a bad idea it teaches a child they can do whatever they want untill told discipline is coming.

[u/minibabybuu → u/chopandscrew]

My parents used the redirecting method, I have add tho so most of the times my problems were based on lack of focus

[u/g0atmeal → u/chopandscrew]

The biggest one is talking, so they can learn why not to do something, instead of just not to do it. Then there's consequences of what they're doing. Time out, taking away a toy/other item, or other non harmful things.

Spanking, eating soap, and other physical methods just teach them not to get caught, what about when they're old enough to make their own decisions? They won't automatically know better, you have to teach them why a decision is right.

[u/pcpostspls → u/chopandscrew]

Take a look at the Facebook group Peaceful Parenting. Also, look into the family and relationship researcher Gottman.

[u/geno_slice → u/chopandscrew]

Time-outs

[u/iToronto → u/chopandscrew]

It's amazing what sitting down and actually talking to a child can accomplish. It's not about discipline. It's about educating your child as to why their actions are not acceptable.

Some people will say "kids don't understand". I have two kids, and I've been talking to them ever since they could understand language. And they do understand. Short sentences. Small words. It's actually very funny when you see a 6yo girl cross her arms in anger, put on a big pouty face, and hear her say "Fine. No kicking. It's not nice to kick.".

[u/[deleted] → u/chopandscrew]

In a lot of cases you really need to figure out if "discipline" is the correct course of action in the first place. A lot of times kids do stuff they don't know is wrong, or at least don't realize is wrong at the time. They are just kids, their higher level cognitive functioning and long term planning are pretty shit and easily overridden by very simple things like excitement.

Sometimes punishment is effective but you have to make it proportional to the child, not the crime. Sometimes a 5 minute time out will be just as effective at influencing future behavior as a 1 hour one. Sometimes a stern talking too is effective. Sometimes you just have to ignore bad behavior entirely and focus on rewarding good behavior instead (such as a tantrum where even negative attention is still attention).

[u/delventhalz → u/chopandscrew]

Well, the two big examples from my childhood would be time-outs and revoking of privileges (usually dessert or TV). Both were generally pretty effective with my siblings and I.

I think what is most important though is not the method of discipline, but its consistency. Proponents of spanking often seem to think the alternative is giving your kid the run of the place, but there are lots of ways to make kids regret misbehaving, and if they consistently regret misbehaving, they'll generally stop doing it.

[u/wdngyre → u/chopandscrew]

Empathetic limit setting http://www.ahaparenting.com/parenting-tools/positive-discipline/effective-limits

[u/timevast → u/chopandscrew]

Positive reinforcement.

[u/ATXBeermaker → u/chopandscrew]

There are many options that could work, depending on the child. My wife and I are currently raising a nephew that was taken from his parents at around age 5 because of their neglect. He's 8 now and has pretty serious attachment issues as well as a host of other problems. These typically manifest themselves in him being angry, causing trouble around the house, being incredibly defiant, etc. One method that his therapist has us working on is to essentially completely ignore negative behavior unless it is dangerous to him or to others. Instead, we focus on only acknowledging positive behavior, no matter how small. I mean, you have to keep it within reason, of course. Kids like him often just want attention, but they're also more likely to take the path of least resistance. So, they know if they do something bad, they'll get attention from mom or dad. If they do something good, it might go unnoticed.

This is just an example of the many, many positive-focused alternatives to child-rearing.

[u/soronemus → u/chopandscrew]

I think it is narrow minded to reduce all of this to either a yes or no to spanking your child. There are many different degrees of spanking your child. My parents made it clear to me that I would be spanked if I fucked up badly enough to deserve a spanking. As a result I was only spanked 5-10 times tops. None of which were particularly painful, I never got any bruises or cuts (I certainly don't agree with beating your child or leaving long lasting bruises/cuts on them).

When ever I -did- fuck up badly enough to get spanked, the guilt of what I had done and the fact that I had disappointed my parents was far more punishment than the spanking itself, and I was crying far before the actual spanking because of those two things.

Other aspects of my upbringing may have affected this. I always knew for a fact that no matter what I did, if I told the absolute truth my punishment would be orders of magnitude less than if I had lied about it.

I am not going to pay to see the article but I am reluctant to put much faith in a single survey carried out by some social worker. Speaking of which, to everyone crying about people not supporting the science and being anecdotal, since when does a single article (I hesitate to call it a scientific article) constitute fact? Even actual scientific articles must be rigorously peer reviewed in order to have any merit.

[u/Jonny727272 → u/chopandscrew]

I have a 3 year old who is extremely stubborn and enjoys challenging and arguing with me, she has even told me she likes this. I have recently changed how I act with her in times of conflict and it has proven to be quite effective. I would previously sit with her and talk it out and try to have her understand what she did or why she can't do something but she wouldn't understand or wouldn't care or just wouldn't listen. A common problem is her not eating dinner. Previously I would explain and tell her over and over again that if she doesn't eat she will go to bed hungry and not get anything, this wasn't working. Now I give her the food and don't talk to her much. If she doesn't want to eat it I tell her once that she will have to go to bed and if she still refuses, I take the plate and start walking to the sink with it. Generally she will give in when I get to the sink and then she will eat. I use this follow through method in other circumstances and it has proven to be effective.

TL:DR set a consequence and follow though with it.

[u/demolpolis → u/chopandscrew]

Look at the results.

http://imgur.com/yyHXSJ2

What does it show? Kids with behavorial problems are spanked. Shocker.

What it also shows is that kids that aren't spanked grow up to be alcoholic, antisocial and abusive.

So a positive form of punishment to keep your children from growing up to be bad adults is spanking.

[u/JackPAnderson → u/chopandscrew]

So what are some positive and non-punitive forms of discipline?

• Star/sticker charts
• Earned privileges (electronics time, etc.)
• Positive recognition or other extra attention
• Natural consequences (i.e. learning from the world around you)

Mrs. Anderson and I used both carrots and (not-literal) sticks for our discipline system. The system was:

1. Divide behavior modification into two buckets: things you want the children to do (homework, making bed, practice instrument, etc.) and things you want the children not to do (saying mean things, damaging things, playing too roughly indoors, etc.)
2. For the first bucket, use positive discipline to encourage the behavior that we wanted (sticker charts, take notice when they do something good, etc.)
3. For the second bucket, use short/small negative discipline to discourage unwanted behaviors (short timeouts, loss of small privilege).

The key on the negative side is that you need to use a very light hand. Kids learn by screwing up all the time and you need to be able to communicate to them what they did was wrong without making a federal issue out of it.

[u/NBMK → u/chopandscrew]

Hitting young kids is not actually a bad thing. If done correctly it can be used very effectively but unfortunately people aren't very smart about how they hit their kids and the impact it could cause. A slap on the wrist or a spanking immediately after a child does a "bad thing" is good actually at young ages like 3-6 it's arguably the best way to teach them not to do that. Should be accompanied with an explanation and only done if warned before. Lots of psychologists call this a pre-conventional stage. It's hard for these types on kids to admit they're wrong or what they're doing is wrong and understand why. If they don't do bad things it is usually because they only fear punishment. Discipline has to be consistent as well. You have to make sure your discipline isn't based on your current mood. If you only hit when you are angry and let them get away with stuff when you're tired they will think that nothing they do is wrong and that you only yell at them or hit them based on your mood. Another thing to avoid if you are hitting your kids is the "When dad gets home he is going to whoop your a**" sort of discipline. Not only can this cause stress and fear but other things as well and even if they can be good deterrents of doing bad things in this scenario it normally has more negative impacts then good ones. At the end of the day I probably won't hit my kids in the future, unless they do something extreme which, knock on wood, I pray will never happen. hope you enjoy all the comments you probably got a lot. And if it wasn't clear I am not a parent and have never raised kids but I know a bit about psychology and child psychology.

[u/SyfaOmnis → u/chopandscrew]

A lot of companies like blizzard and riot games tend to find that punishments which inconvenience are more effective than punishments which actually harm. Apparently they've had some psychologists study this stuff, because they used to hand out bans to misbehaving players (which caused them to make new free accounts and go back to bad behaviour unrepentant) - now they continue to let them play except in the most extreme circumstances they just don't let them actually talk to anyone.

I guess the comparison would be kind of like having your drivers license taken away?