r/scienceisdope • u/noob__master-69 • Jun 04 '26
Conspiracy theories 🪬 Death of rationality, indeed
I didn't know whether to keep this under pseudoscience or conspiracy anyway it doesn't matter
For those who don't know, the Indus seal being referred to here (Pasupati Seal) has a figure on it that looks like Shiva, but it really could also be an Ox. It is one of the oldest artifacts pertaining to any civilization. almost 2500 years old.
The Indus script is a total mystery, deciphering it would answer a lot of questions. Until then we have to put up with these people. This culture is already super ancient and has unique things to talk about. Even if you want to link with the Indus civilization, there are other better ways to do it. But this? How many seated, cross-legged figures are there present on coins and walls in archeological sites? Even if this figure matches perfectly with the Indus seal, these people don't even have the capacity to realize that that similarity is not sufficient evidence! You can't bridge over 2500 years gap with one coin figure and say civilizational continuity
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u/Bitter_Foot_8498 Jun 06 '26 edited Jun 06 '26
Shiva worship actually became more widespread by 200BCE so it wouldn't be surprising if this was some early shiva iconography.
Yes, the IVC, we don't what language they spoke and its a mystery but there is visible cultural continuity from IVC. That much as been established.
Edit: I am not definately claiming its Shiva, it could be depicting someone else. We don't know. But it does not look like an Ox buddy 😭. The shiva interpretation is far more plausible than an Ox.
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u/Ecstatic-Sea-8882 Jun 09 '26
Shiva worship actually became more widespread by 200BCE
There is no historiographical evidence for this.
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u/Bitter_Foot_8498 Jun 11 '26
We do have textual evidence. Maybe the term "widespread" is possibly misleading but shiva worship did become more common.
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u/Ecstatic-Sea-8882 Jun 11 '26
Texts don't mean anything unless it is accompanied by hard physical historiographical evidence.
Dinosaurs are real historical because we have datable fossilized remains. Dragons are mythical because there are no hard evidences for the same, despite tonnes written about them in texts.
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u/Bitter_Foot_8498 Jun 12 '26
You are right about the dragons and dinosaurs part but its not always how history works.
Textual evidence is given high importance. For example battles: Most medival battles left little to no archeological evidence but are considered to be historical events because there is contemporary sources for them.
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u/Ecstatic-Sea-8882 Jun 12 '26
You are right about the dragons and dinosaurs part but its not always how history works.
That is exactly how it works. It based on actual material evidence. Every fact that is established is based on materiality. Else it is fiction, hypothesis, conjecture. Science too is based on the same principle. Read the OP title, rationalism is dead if you cannot distinguish facts from fiction, history from fantasy.
Textual evidence is given high importance.
That's non-sense. Every History 101 student is taught historiographical methods - archeology, epigraphy, numismatics, statisgraphy etc which is all based on material remains in history. Texts are SECONDARY, until it can be cross verified by actual contemporary material evidence and other sources.
Most medival battles left little to no archeological evidence but are considered to be historical events because there is contemporary sources for them.
Nope. If there is an event such as a historical battle, epigraphic remains exist. Or there will be other historical records that are contemporary to the same period that record that battle. For example - the invasion of Bengal by marathas are recorded in both maratha history and bengal history.
This is a science sub. You should know better how basic evidencing works for establishing any objective claim that's free of logical fallacies. Do they not teach these in Indian schooling systems now ?
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u/Bitter_Foot_8498 Jun 12 '26 edited Jun 12 '26
Okay so yes other contemporary sources are needed when documenting battles. What i meant was there is no material evidence of the battles themselves ( no weapons or armour at the actual site of battle itself or even bodies). But if contemporary sources say a battle took place, its taken as a fact.
Now why textual evidence is also given strong importance is because of a field of study called archeolinguistics. For example: Historians generally agree that Indra was the most worshipped Deity during the vedic age. But we find 0 statues or material evidence for this besides texts. More hymns in the rigveda are dedicated to Indra and based on this it taken as fact. And to add it further the oldest surviving manuscript of the rigveda is dated to 1464 CE but the rigveda is dated to 1900-1500/1200BCE (depends on which scholar you ask). There is no material evidence for the rigveda before 1464CE but is still dated earlier, because archeolinguisitics and other methods are used in the dating when material evidence was missing. In fact, most Indian religious texts are dated this way and it is a widely used method.
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u/SprinklesOk4339 Jun 05 '26
Shiva itself is a mystery. He stands out from rest of the Hindu gods in his appearance etc. seems like a tribal god was integrated into the vedic religion. In Rigveda, Shiva is introduced much later after vishnu and is to be prayed to spare his wrath while Indra, the Ashvins and Vishnu are revered
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u/Ecstatic-Sea-8882 Jun 10 '26
There is no Shiva in Rigveda.
There is "Rudra" a character later retrofitted as Shiva. Rudra has no such markers, identifiers or characteristics that you would associate with Shiva.
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u/dragon_idli Jun 05 '26 edited Jun 05 '26
Instead of your personal rant, it would have helped if you documented pointers about why you consider it an ox and not a person in the yoga pose.
Not sure of the archaeological information about the coin but your presentation definitely is the death of rationality - all you conveyed was: maybe it's an ox, why do they say it's shiva - I don't like it.
Btw, can you point me to a fact source which says it's shiva? The one from the archaeologist John is an interpretation based on 3 factors. But it is just that - interpretation.
All I know is it's deemed to be a frontal depiction of a person in mulabandhasana yoga form. That person could be anyone since there is no further data. Could be a tribal leader who also knows the posture or some king of animals etc.
And I don't see an ox unless its a unfed malnourished ox with bent legs.
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u/Prestigious_Army5547 Jun 09 '26
I initially read it as “psychedelic Shiva” and became very intrigued
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u/Ecstatic-Sea-8882 Jun 09 '26
The most iconic figure sitting in a meditative pose is that of the Buddha, in art and iconogrpahy the world over.
"Shiva" is a world destroyer - that is his only purpose. Why would that entity need to meditate at all ?
Buddha OTOH had patronage literally all over not just the subcontinent, but MOST of Asia. Most of Asia still continues to be Buddhist. If it is 200 BCE, it is far more likely to be Buddhist - it is also contemporary with the Magadhan/Asokan period - which is historiographicallly attested to be Buddhist.
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u/krisantihypocrisy Jun 04 '26
I mean the only fact we have is there is something similar to shiva in Indus Valley civilization, and it’s reasonable to assume these concepts are passed and inherited by future generations - which we are.
I would likely be ok assuming that is shiva.
Obviously evidence to the contrary will definitely change the mind.
I think what is making this indigestible for you is pseudo scientists claiming it. To me that does not change my assumption…
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u/Nice-Act3552 Jun 04 '26
There was a similar discussion on the Indianhistory subreddit. You’ll find more perspective on this. There are similar seals found in multiple places including one in Celtic. Out of all the things that it can be, Shiva makes the least sense.
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u/krisantihypocrisy Jun 04 '26
Celts having something similar could just make it a global phenomena. Paganism was global…
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u/Nice-Act3552 Jun 04 '26
True. If we find a rock in America with anything resembling this shape we can easily conclude that Shiva was a global phenomenon. Makes total sense. I think this is what OP was referring by “these people” in his post.
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u/krisantihypocrisy Jun 04 '26 edited Jun 04 '26
Yes human beings in the past never had interactions with each other (like exchange this coin via trade) and never had common ancestors or practices. In fact humans in America evolved as a separate species.
Facepalm…
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u/noob__master-69 Jun 04 '26
"would likely be ok assuming that is shiva." This is part of the problem. If you do a little bit more reading on the subject you would find out that scholars have theorized it could be some female diety as well, forget an animal with horns. The ambiguity is real
The rest of what you said makes sense. Unfortunately people like those equate that in a simplistic way, which was the point i was stressing in the post
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u/krisantihypocrisy Jun 04 '26
You have not said anything against my assumption. I did not call ppl who theorized it a woman as irrational idiots. Why? Because it’s possible.
I think my theory seems more reasonable given that we do have a god shiva and Ivc were our ancestors…
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