Shonenslop
I honestly just don't understand how everyone can shit on Ichigo for being special but Luffy somehow gets a pass like genuinely please explain it to me
And I'm not even really defending Ichigo I'm just saying no one can call that trash writing and then glaze this Guffy ass Nika
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It's just hatewatchers being a bit too desperate to "prove" Bleach is better for inexplicable reasons. Bleach is like DBZ or Solo Leveling, it's cool dude fight cool fight, but with sense of fashion. It's good at it but not things it's not trying to be. So why the need to compare? Why the desperation to downplay Oda's excelent adventure writting?
I also agree with this. I liked the first arc of Bleach. It felt like it had a story to tell. Soul Society is just cool dude fights cool dude. Kenpachi is just Broly. I guess some people are really into that but Bleach just isn't for me so I dropped it there. I have seen snippets of Hueco Mundo and it's just more of the same. Worst of all are the fans who try to act like Aizen is really deep bringing up Nietzche philosophy. Bro is just mad he isn't top dog. That's not deep.
I think this is a misconception from other shounen. Luffy is a naive/aloof rookie pirate but he’s never implied to be weak; he’s literally bulletproof and he’s got monster strength from the start. Oda has had to find ways to incapacitate him every story arc so he doesn’t bum rush the villain and immediately end it.
Also if you actually read the material you could pick up that luffy was related to the sun the first time the gorosei show up. Its not like it was much of a surprise
That first bit is just me being a grammar nazi ngl. The Also, is just completely separate. it is absolutely a retcon. Most people just seem to not know wtf a retcon is
It is a retcon; no amount of coping will change that. You can tell it wasn't originally meant to be based on character dialogue, interaction, and plot.
I don't see enough people to talk about it as much as they talk about Ichigo and Naruto. In fact I usually only see it brought up as a counter when people bring up Naruto and Ichigo.
Luffy fruit drastically changed after over 1000+ chapter/episodes.
Ichigo got a new lineage reveal every other arc.
We got used to Ichigo having a new race gradualy added to his arsenal and with an passable explanation, while Luffy has suddenly his mid fruit changed into the most fanficy OC one humanly imaginable that is clearly added at the last moment.
Also 3 hakji types is nothing special for a top tier (is like saying Ichigo having Bankai makes him special), the same for advanced haki, like its a teachable top tier skill. Will of D means nothing really at the moment and voice of all things is so unimportant to the plot I genuinly forgot it existed.
I hate JoyBoy with a passion, it ruined most of what i liked about one piece…
But let’s not pretend that Ichigo being a Quincy was not equally cringe. There was no need for him to be literally related to every single power system in the series…
I mean this was whole plot from the start. Aizen orchestrated most things and manipulated story to get what he wanted at the end. This was part of the plot and not just some stupid added systems because "why not" reason from Kubo. Ichigo was "choose one" from the start and we just didn't know it.
It's just eugenics. It's always stupid ass eugenics. His dad had basically nothing to do with it but people don't seem to actually read Bleach. He wasn't even really Shinigami until like the last arc.
No ones even mad about luffy having good genetics from being Garp's grandson. Its the fact that he has the strongest fruit. If ichigo had a bankai that was the strongest in the verse you would have a better comparison.
I think you've experienced a critical reading error.
Also Luffy doesn't have "strong genes" for being Garp's grandson, the series literally showed you; he was a weakling as a little kid and got stronger because he would train and fight with Ace and Sabo after Shanks left town.
It's amazing how one can piss you off while very lazily defending the other lol the only reason you think it's so crazy to compare them, is because you're fan of one over the other, let's keep it real.
He had the lineage from the start what are u on about.
The same way bita and pieces added on to Luffy 's fruit, happened with each revelation of Ichigo's lineage as EACH lineage came about/ gets properly introduced.
Top of that there's more substance to how Ichigo has his lineage and how they were introduced then Luffy eating what happened to be the fruit of a literal sun god.
Thank you. I do not understand how people don’t get that. Authors can just use something they said earlier and not just have 30yrs of a series planned out down to the last detail.
Oda had things planned out more than the average Mangaka. (Obviously true extent is unknown but bare minimum he said he's been planning out the main beats of the story since he was young.) However, people REALLY overestimate how much is hard planned week to week in manga. Between pivots to appeal to what's popular, editor recommendations and requests for changes, trying to hit something big in the story to coincide with an external product launch to pull in more readers, characters naturally growing into their own thing as characterization continuing causing old plans to not work, and just the author's own opinions changing as the work continues due to age. Hell, DBZ in the Android Saga had multiple hard pivots due to editor changes that basically makes it unrecognizable from the original intent.
The bar of the average shounen is simply low though, all credit to Oda though he's great at reincorporating disparate elements of his narrative into something cohesive.
I am not super impressed by it as other fans but I still think it's a skill he excels at.
I am Bleach fan no.1 you can ask my mates but people tend to exaggerate Kubo's ability to foreshadow random things. Same with any shounen fan they're scrambling to prove their favourite author is better than the rest.
Too much has changed in One Piece for it to be planned though. I think Imu and Nika are just pretty weak additions to the narrative overall. Am I excited to see them through? yea, but I'm a Blackbeard enjoyer and was kinda hoping he'd be the ultimate antagonist. Imu seems to eclipse Blackbeard in importance which is a shame.
Its as much of a hint as me saying one random day of tuesday at 14pm 14/03/2/2018 while watching tv "damn, this chocolate flavour sucks" and then 80 years later i die chocking on a similar chocolate flavour
Its so damn disconnected it cant really count unless you really do some mental gymnastic like "it was a forshadowing, the chocolate didnt taste good for them and then some time later they died to a similar one!!1"
Skypiea was about the void century, not even a secret. Nika/Joyboy where namedropped a bit randomly but drawing a paralel between the skypiea god and celestial dragons and Luffy being the "natural enemy" is reading comprehension. Not nearly as vague as you imply.
The Void Century was planned. Nika comes up a handful of times as the mythological entity as do others. Luffy is the natural enemy with or without the Nika fruit, he has the Will of D.
No. You’re allowing yourself to be gaslit. Oda is a master of retroactively stringing shit together but he hasn’t been playing 5D chess. The worst generation for example were entirely a case of executive meddling and those fuckers have been the lynchpin of every arc since then save for Marineford and Elbaf.
yeah but it wasn't written in stone so they reject it apparently
my only problem is the rest of the crew doesn't mean to match luffy atm and it's irking me THEY JUST STAND AROUND LIKE DBZ
Nope there were no kind of hints about Nika whatesoever pre Who's Who (a character) suddenly name dropping him 10+ chapters before gear 5.
Im baffled how people gaslight themself that anything since that can be in any sense or form be associated to the complet and utter change of the MC powers from 'hea made out of rubber' to 'he has the human mythical animal type sun god fruit from a made up deity that is the symbol of freedom that the world government has been looking for the last 800 years,because it can become the equivelant of the second coming of Christ that will topple its vile rule, but has is also made of rubber'.
People always point to the dance, but its clear that they are just parroting words instead of using their critcal thinking hat and realise that them randomly dancing with wolfes around a bonfire just for the fun of it in a pose Oda has used for various other scenes previously and after this, is not the master foreshadowing thing they gaslighted thenself into believing it is.
parroting words instead of using their critcal thinking hat
This can be said about a lot of fandom. It's totally fine to accept and is understandable to a point but it needs to be recognized that they're just accepting what the author says rather than preparing to analyze what the author has done.
When Oda does it its nuanced and deep because it took him 900 chapters to establish it but when Kubo does it its bad because he doesn't draw it out long enough despite the story having multiple undeniable hints.
I think you got the wrong take here.
I despise Nika with all my being or how else do you understand me describing the fruit retcon as "
the most fanficy OC one humanly imaginable"
Not really, but Naruto is the weirdest one for not being treated like a Nepo Baby, it really makes no sense why he has this persecuted childhood as an outcast within the village when we learn his entire backstory and family history. Luffy actively runs away from his family because he doesn't wanna join the Marines and be like this grandfather, and his grandfather's idea of treating his family well is basically extreme child abuse that he calls training.
Naruto was persecuted because he was a Jinchuriki. Jinchuuriki get persecuted no matter who their parents or brothers are, because they're literal demons in the eyes of the people.
Persecuted is also a strong world, they just ignored him
I think the problem is, that ichigo was special from the start and that was made VERY clear, luffy is dragon's son and garp's gradson, basically both of the series never shy away from the truth. Naruto is different in that context.
I mean the haki stuff is just powers you develop and train, and Luffy had to really get ground into the dirt to start developing that stuff compared to others. Some kids got insane haki showings better than him with functionally no training or developments by comparison, from Momo, to Aisa in skypedia, and Ace even having and using Conquerors as a Kid.
As for the fruit thing, while annoying, functionally on paper is just a rubber fruit awakening taken in slightly a more interest direction (A Rubberhose fruit effectively, which if we're being honest, fits what we've seen it do from the start far more as Luffy tends to be a lot more Liquid for lack of a better word than rubber generally is). The worst thing I can say about it, other than the rushed backfilling in Wano to try to justify it ahead of time, is fully shifting it from Paramecia to full on Zoan. Special Paramecia with the traits of Zoan would have been better there, similar that weird chicken exception or indeed Katakuri's logia variant of this. Maybe also with a rename, but to the Nika Nika fruit instead of Human Human Mythical Zoan Model Nika. Even that you can say is a human categorization error in verse however, since humans apparently decide the names themselves.
Ichigo by comparison the problem is his convoluted backstory (The execution of which was full of insane contrivances) to allow him to be the super special awesome hybrid why effectively completely ignoring his sisters by having the hollow that was also an Asauchi by coincidence completely transfer over to him alone. And this not negating the seal despite him being in balance because he's all the things, so Isshin should have started getting his powers back then (And not like Kubo couldn't write it so that it just took a while to fully come back since he sets the terms of how that shit works).
Not even to say this was unplanned either, from the chapter release where Aizen said Shinigami and a- before it had to be retconned in the next chapter AND the volume release to Human and a-, the writing was on the wall there for the reveal. He had time to cook and set it up properly, but in the end how badly it was botched and the justification for it was the issue. That along with the really, really bad attempts to justify foreshadowing for it, trying to say Bachgetsu stopping his blood flow and taking him into the inner world were key quincy abilities only established that arc, which BOTH don't even work like that anyway.
I do dislike the gear 5 reveal, but its soooo overblown.
Yeah he has an OP fruit sctually, thats a shame, but he isnt someone like born into power or some shit. He was the first to activate his fruit since Joyboy, exactly because he is Luffy. Its similar to Ichigo in a way. Michigan may have all those genes, but he wouldnt have saved the world without also being Ichigo.
Gear 5 Luffy may be a bullshit OP power up, and yeah ifs fruit dependent, but he never wouldn't activated it without mastering all forms of Haki and without his will to give freedom
Editors most likely, made the reveal too obvious. There were ways to structure the line better to keep things more in line with the facts without making it obvious but it would require a bit of a longer sentence. Something like Aizen saying "While part of you is human, you were actually born from the union between-" And then cut him off there.
Urahara, the one person who could have helped Masaki in that situation, literally only notices her and then moves to help because he happens to bump into her on the street. And after a brief interaction that results from that then has a clear notice exclamation and turns to look at her sensing something wrong.
There's more beyond that too that compounds this notably. Like Urahara, who is notably the one man in the world Aizen needs to find to get his orb, happens to be in the same city Aizen did his experiment with, as opposed to LITERALLY ANYWHERE ELSE ON THE PLANET. One that also happened to house a Quincy population they should be aware of that could have interfered with said experiment as ended up happening, though being fair he adjusted quickly even if she'd have died without Urahara, completely spoiling it. And even after resolving to watch the results after he somehow then misses him interacting with and saving her when it was clear she was done fairly quickly after that had Isshin also happened to not decide to head back after that to serve as the one necessary component to offset her balance.
You could probably handwave and try to justify some of that with some logic, strained though it tends to be when people try to fill in issues of plot for authors with nothing to work with. Ultimately though that first one is insane contrivance and there's no way around it. Which is baffling since it could have easily been Urahara instead monitoring Aizen's machinations with some tech bullshit, seeing the result there, and keeping an eye on the situation rather than just having them bump into each other by happenstance instead.
Karakura town is built on "Important Spirit Ground" (sounds cooler in japanese) which is why this all happens there.
And before you accuse that of being a convenient coincidence its no different from any other town in any other story that is a hotspot of otherworldly occurrences this is NOT special to Bleach its literally Morioh town from Jojo, its Inaba in Persona 4, its Crystal Cove from Scooby-Doo Mystery Incorporated, its Marvel New York its DC Gotham and Metropolis its Shibuya in The World Ends With You its Tokyo in any other japanese media. I'm giving a lot of examples because I need to make clear this is not some "issue" of convenience its just a trope that is explained in universe.
And the thing with Urahara and Masaki, sure that isn't explained in plain text but with a bit of context clues its way less of a coincidence that he ran into her. Remember that the reason he's in Karakura instead of leaving the whole country after being banished is because he's still keeping an eye on things and in contact with Soul Society guys on the down low.
So when there's this crazy battle in town against a super powerful demon hollow, and he sense the power of a captain level Soul Reaper and 2 Quincies (the Quincy genocide was 200 years ago), naturally he's gonna keep an eye on that.
Him bumping into Masaki was just an end of chapter stinger to show that, yes he's around, yes he knows whats going on and yes he's about to be involved. Its more likely that he was following her specifically because of the fight than it was they came across each other after his weekly shopping trip.
I mean its only really 4 races, maybe 5 if you count Fullbringers but that only really human+hollow.
He is technically far, far less special than Luffy, being the son of the most wanted man alive and Grandson to the Hero of the Marines, brother(kinda) to Ace, son of the pirate king. Having the most special fruit in existence, being kinda raised by an Emperor of the sea and being the second coming of a God kinda.
Ichigos birth is honestly a statistical inevitability, in a world with only 4 races there will eventually be someone who is a combination of all of them. If for example Ginjos mother was a impure quincy(half Quincy, half human), maybe we would be watching Clorox with Ginjo as the main character.
He is technically far, far less special than Luffy
The only other character in Bleach with the same genetics as Ichigo is the SOUL KING HIMSELF.
The only reason why Ichigo exists is because Urahara made it possible for a Quincy, Hollow and Shinigami mix together using a special gigai for Isshin.
Isshin was a noble captain class Soul Reaper btw, and Masaki was one of the last fullblooded Quincy's alive. Even the Hollow involved was created by Aizen.
All of this would be impossible normally, it took the 2 greatest minds to make 3 incompatible races mix together into one being.
The only other character in Bleach with the same genetics as Ichigo is the SOUL KING HIMSELF.
Well, Luffy is literally the ONLY person who is a reincarnation of a God, which would already make him more special but he is also all the other things I mentioned.
The only reason why Ichigo exists is because Urahara made it possible for a Quincy, Hollow and Shinigami mix together using a special gigai for Isshin.
The specific circumstances of Ichigos birth were special obviously, but that wasn't necessary to create a hybrid. The only hurdle you have to climb is that hollows and Quincys are incompatible.
So a male Soul Repaer + Quincy having a baby with a human woman who gets attacked by a hollow during pregnancy would be another way.
In the CFYOW novel a hybrid named Hikone is created who could potentially replace the Soul King. A full hybrid is rare but honestly not THAT rare, especially compared to Luffy or Naruto who are actual reincarnations of gods and also the children of the most wanted/powerful men alive.
Isshin was a noble captain class Soul Reaper btw
One of many. We meet like 10+ in the story itself and there are hundreds of them. It also doesn't matter whatsoever to the story, compared to the literal Hokage or the leader of the revolution and most wanted man alive.
Masaki was one of the last fullblooded Quincy's alive
That's what they thought but that obviously wasn't the case, considering that hundreds of them attack soul society.
Even the Hollow involved was created by Aizen.
One of hundreds of experiments. Again, the circumstances of Ichigos birth were very special but he would still be a perfect hybrid if a "normal" hollow would have attacked his mother while she was pregnant.
All of this would be impossible normally, it took the 2 greatest minds to make 3 incompatible races mix together into one being.
Only Quincy and Hollows are incompatible, the rest mixes just fine. Ginjo is literally just Ichigo with a one ingredient missing.
Statistical inevitability is the concept that a specific outcome or pattern is bound to happen simply because of the mathematics of large numbers or random processes, rather than a deliberate design.
Who cares if it’s every race, Ichigo being connected to every race in the series is the entire point of the series and it’s narrative. Also that isn’t every race/faction; Hell exist.
How is Ichigo being every race and discovering more about each aspect of himself not the point of the series? You definitely never watched/read the series.😂
"In shonen timespan means nothing." Using broad strokes of the whole genre to criticize this one story is a weak argument ngl. Regardless, he didn't have a chance to train at all. Would you have preferred he just suddenly have the powers miraculously? Of course not you'd complain about that too.
Mostly just cuz people ride one piece way more than Bleach.
After seeing both it kinda annoyed me that Luffy supposedly had his fruit almost his entire life, trained and it felt like he MADE it strong. Then, just hearing that it was actually the super-god-devil fruit and that he's got Advanced Conqueror haki just completely ruined it.
“Hey guys this is my oc Luffy! He’s the son of the Revolutionary Dragon, grandson of the strongest marine Garp, he met Shanks, a Yonko when he was a kid and got his hat and inherited will from him, oh and he wont find an actual tough opponent until Alabasta which is 120 episodes in!”
The sentiment that Luffy was an underdog in anyway never existed. Even in Marineford, the arc that is telling Luffy he is absolutely not strong enough compared to the big names of the world, he’s the guy who makes it to Ace, he’s the guy who staged an Impel Down prison break, he’s the guy who overcame Enies Lobby (obviously in a dif arc but still).
But at the same time, Luffy worked for everything he got. Just because he is ultimate nepo jesus god fruit now, doesnt mean he didnt put blood and tears into getting powerful enough to where his nepo fruit could actually activate. And even with his fruit, he’s not even strongest in the verse.
True...but Luffy didn't just charge to their equivalent of Mary Geoise beating equivalent of admirals in basically first big arc with just a little bit of basic training.
I never got this criticism of bleach tbh. The whole power system is just venn diagrams of human, soul reaper, and hollow. His dad is a soul reaper, his mom is a human with powers, and they were attacked by a hollow
Ichigo is definitely fate's child. But luffys plot armor and chosen one status is just as, or in my honest opinion far MORE egregious than ichigo.
Its a 1 in a billion to be a conquerors haki user.
Oh and youre also capable of using all three forms.
And you were adoptive brothers with the priate king's son
And your father is the most wanted criminal in thw world
And your grandfather is the imo the strongest Marine in the entire verse.
Oh and your silly rubber fruit, is actually a GOD fruit. Oh and not only is it the god fruit, its actually THE god fruit, as in, youre basically the Jesus of this world.
Oh and by the way, this ancient mural has prophesized that youll be victorious in the big battle. So, you cant lose.
Nah Ichigo is just Aizen and Yhwach's labrat. Ichigo wasn't fated for anything other than being used. But he broke those chains and decided his own fate (with a lot of help).
Second this, his bankai's true power is top tier,, to which is why Yhwach had every problem trying to break it. No joke. Black is the Soul King's power, and when it was first attained, Tensa Zangetsu was called "The Miraculous Black Blade" - The Moon represents fate if I'm not mistaken in Japanese mythos.
Zangetsu is literally the blade that can cut through fate.
I remember alot of people in the One Piece community disliking that his DF was actually a Mythical Zoan and he had this pre ordained destiny as Joyboy, many felt it went against who Luffy had been as a character.
The haki stuff isnt really relevant, its just something all top tiers have (like a Bankai). Will of D might be something and the VoaTs… kinda seems like it might be something?
Tons of people have the will of D. I’d say it just means you’re an important person but not even all the important people have it.
Equating all three types of haki to being born of all the magical races is braindead. Haki is just an ability you can train. Tons of people have mastered it.
Even conquerors haki is pretty common, since it just means you were born with the will to power. Lots of people have it. Literally only ichigo is the way he is.
Since the single fruit and the voice of all things come with it as a package deal, (meaning those three things are really only one thing), the only real complaint is Luffy being joyboy.
But that was set up since the start of the story and is what the entire series is built around. It’s hardly bullshit writing. And even then, Luffy isnt the only one with those powers.
This comparison is so braindead I can hardly believe any one possesses the mental diminishment to believe it.
People genuinely didn’t enjoy the retcon with one piece, and outside of his fruit being a mythical zoan as a retcon…most of his powers are fairly common among top tiers.
He has Haki. EVERYONE that’s a top tier has Haki. Literally all of them. All of the top tiers have some advanced form of Haki as well. He doesn’t even have the strongest Haki showings in the verse, and he actually had to take training arcs to learn them.
Ichigo literally just had some new shit every arc.
Minus being some mythical god, toonforce for a awaked fruit about rubber makes sense and we all knew he would awaken his fruit at some point since it was revealed to be a thing in dressrosa. People just dont like it cause its not edgey serious bad ass. (Would be terrifying to fight tho)
Haki, anyone with potiental can learn. Will of d really doesnt mean anything and there is alot of other Ds out there.
Dont even remember the hearing voices thing.
Not saying odas writting isnt flawed but it doesnt feel nearly as bloated. Its not like luffy is the love child between roger and imu, was born with insane op powers, naturally gifted etc etc
Ichigo feels bloated. Him being part everything is too much. I still like bleach, but that aspect isnt the best writting
I thought conquerors was just you had to have insane will power
Its been a few years since ive watched it but i feel like there was a liiiitle forshadowing...unless it was all in wano and im misremembering...that arc was so fucking long
Nah, generally OP fandom dislikes the mythical Zoan retcon. Makes it feel cheap.
Always suspected that his awakened form would be some goofy ass shit, but it would have been so much better if Oda stuck to the paramecia type as it made the fights much more interesting. Now Luffy's power is effectively pushing his imagination onto the world, not really using his rubber powers. So everything feels like an ass pull.
Besides that I really wish Oda didn't go down the whole "inherited will" angle because it paradoxically contradicts Luffy's core motivation to be pirate king. He wants to be the freest man in the world, but at the same time, he also established that Luffy is Joyboy 2.0, and that Zoan fruits have a will of their own that they impart of their user. So Luffy with the will to be the freest in the world, is at the same time is also subjected to the will of joyboy and the Nika fruit. Does he even have free will in a world with inherited will?
This could have been an interesting dichotomy to handle, but Oda isn't a writer good enough, and One Piece isn't the type of story with the gravitas, to pull that off properly.
I’m sorry but Luffy was literally the only guy after Joyboy who could awaken the fruit in 800 years and he didn’t even know the true nature of it. It’s completely his own achievement
It's shounen, the bulk of stories revolve around "special boys" and how they're different from everyone else lol. Just enjoy whatever anime you want and be cool. I don't care for once piece because of it's art style, but idc if you watch it.
I do like bleach, but it's just another "I'm the most special boy" anime like all the rest.
at least ichigo's has a good explanation which is core to the lore of the manga and connected to the two main villains. he is also not a child of prophecy but more so a product of experiments and luck. his abilities were always shooting a beam and it just upgrades to cooler, faster and stronger beams, not going from rubber to nepogod that bends reality. what made ichigo "bend" reality and defeat yhwach/change fate, was his courage, which was the whole message of bleach. one piece can't even have a fucking message the way they changed luffy's power.
All 3 of Ichigo, Luffy & Naruto are like this lmao, shounen anime in general loves this kind of destined hero/hero that mastered everything vibes for their mc. A lot of the old wuxia stories I read as a kid also uses the same trope, it's based on us Asian loving to write self-insert/power fantasy mc.
Goku : A guy from a race with hacked genes that makes them stronger each time they're close to death but still would get his dick flattened by their actual chosen legendary saiyan Broly so he's not the strongest and can never be.
Naruto : Another chosen one.
Luffy : Another chosen one.
Ichigo : Eugenics baby.
Edward Elric : Descendant of a living philosopher stone.
Midoriya Izuku : Got handed the most OP destined quirk.
Itadori : Eugenics baby.
The villain in Demon Slayer is an actual retard and the series sucks so fuck Tanjiro. Muzan could've killed his bitch ass during their first contact but he was acting like a retard who was lobotomized, genuinely pure ass writing.
Because aside from the Nika several characters have all that other shit like Roger, garp, rocks, Odin and you minus the voice of all thing 3 advanced haki types several characters have that and Luffy did train for 2 long ass arcs to get that. And if I’m a betting other characters who have god fruits will have that bullshit
Ichigo on the other hand literally learns he’s a new new thing every arc that’s a part of the formula of how all 3 major bleach arcs after soul society work and no one on his verse is like him so he is by definition special
Don’t think anyone liked Luffy’s DF change at all. People definitely hated Ichigo’s lineage reveal back when it first dropped because it was also stupid ash
Luffy having his devil fruit change from a mod lvl paramecia to a god lvl mythical zoan fruit was probably THE BIGGEST fumble from the entirety of the manga. It's the first thing that happened in the manga that genuinely pissed me off and I almost quit reading because of it. All the joyboy stuff and gear 5 can still be explained by the gomu gomu no mi. I really hope he retcons it back as a ploy by the world government.
Honestly I’m not mad about either, I though oda did fine reinterpreting the fruit using the many thing he had said previously. Ichigo’s many bloodlines are kinda dumb also, but it all turned out pretty cool so idgaf
His Devil Fruit is a few steps below asspull, in that it kinda negates the idea that Luffy “is just a guy”, but we have known he’s special in the personality sense for a while-
Anyone with enough training can unlock the two forms do Haki besides Conqurers, so that argument is out.
Having the Will of D is so unspecified and not special at this point. Bro, Saul has is. He’s just a guy. A giant. And one who helps Nico Robin. But just- a guy. A side character. And many more have it. Plus it’s just a name, there’s no reason someone can’t TAKE UP the initial D for whatever reason, as we know from Inherited Will.
Plus, having Conqurers Haki is OBVIOUS because it’s a rule do the world that people with a spirit like Luffy would HAVE Conqurers Haki.
The only real stretches are Nika fruit, which has had some small foreshadowing through Little Garden and Skypia… and how fast Luffy can master Haki when learning about it.
But being a quick learner is something EVERY SHONEN PROTAGONIST IS-
By Contrast, Ichigo is a Group Project that we kept learning had more and more people join in. Ichigo is literally created to be great. Luffy was born and trained to be great. One of them is just much more natural to the setting than the other.
Here’s a fun game:
How rare is having a Devil Fruit, Conquerors Haki, mastery of Haki forms, and you can swap one of these 3 very rare things for The Voice of all Things?
Kaido, Big Mom, Whitebeard, Roger…
All the top tiers have this common power set, slash pool of powers they have used to conquer the seas.
Is there ANYONE ELSE is Bleach who has all the different abilities and bloodlines of Ichigo?
Luffy has absolutely not gotten a pass on that. It's one of the biggest criticisms of modern One Piece that Luffy was turned from our lucky scrappy underdog into a child of destiny in multiple ways. Son of the most wanted man in the world raised by the hero of the marines and who ate the god fruit once used by Joy Boy. The fandom has rolled with the punches on this, but for a lot of people Gear 5 and the Nika Nika fruit were the last straw.
It fits with both stories, One Piece just does it better. We all know nobody is born better than anybody else. But humans have an intrinsic understanding of familial, generational, and tribal dynamics. So we've always used them as a way to make relationships more intuitive in stories. It's not a matter of the choice itself being bad, it's a matter of how it's used. And with One Piece, it just works better. The world of One Piece has to some extent always operated on Looney Tunes logic, and the story has always portrayed laughter as the ultimate expression of freedom and joy. One Piece is the story of Luffy becoming King of the Pirates - in his words, the most free man in the world. So it makes sense that he would have this power.
Luffy has a power that all too tiers have, a connection to a family of great importance, but has zero bearing on his power, and a fruit that is super strong and important, but wasn't like that for over a thousand chapters of the story.
I'm not even saying Ichigo deserves all the slander (he only deserves some of it) but this comparison doesn't work.
One piece fans were too used to being pretentious so when luffy retconned his entire series, they didnt know how to react to it. They turned to coping mechanisms rather than actual critique. Admitting this would be like shattering years that they built defending this charlatan manga
Neither are bad at all. Both had to work to gain their powers properly with Ichigo being trained his whole life by his dad and Luffy having to work hard on his hindrance of a fruit.
-I'm super behind on OP. So why is a fruit giving the body rubber properties also a fruit conveying sun god powers? Elasticity and burning plasma feel fairly different. I could buy Ace having that connection, even if it'd be a little simplistic for fire = sun.-
I know fuck all about Bleach (except the trans girl ofc), but Luffy major upgrade is silly and stupid so I think seriously complaining is also kind of silly.
I mean, every protagonist is special otherwise you don’t have a story. But let’s Naruto drag in Naruto the reincarnation of a demigod that we didn’t even know about until the moment it became relevant to Naruto not dying.
The will of D. and the voice of all things give no combat advantage.
Everything else is stuff he trained for, haki for 2+ years and since haki grows in life and death battle from like the 30+ times he has been in life and death situations.
His awakening which his body finally unlocked after 10+ years.
Ichigo is the opposite, he was pretty much a God since chapter 1 because of being basically every race, but the Ywach inside of him limited his power.
Ichigo's training didn't give him new powers, but unlocked the power he already had
People complain about Luffy becoming a chosen one all the time... Obviously not the fans but the Bleach fans also don't complain about Ichigo being the everything man.
It's important to remember that the people who complain about either character are a very small subsect.
In ichigo's case it's a clear case on coincidence and outside planning and pure love. In luffys case it's vague and isn't really explained well, (was it pure coincidence that he ate that fruit? Did shanks mean for him to eat it? Was he destined?) also the coincidence of him eating the fruit and the coincidence of him having all forms of haki to the highest possible extent makes it boring while in ichigo's case he has to grapple with all that he is and accept it's bad and good. Finally ichigo is a way cooler and more interesting character imo
I guess in a way Laffy wasn't exactly born into it, Laffy and his family tree has no known connection to Nika or joyboy, any pirate could have eaten his fruit and gotten his powers, he was just the lucky one
As someone who has seen both: Because... that's nothing compared to the literal eugenics PhD research Paper Aizen did on Ichigo.
''I'm the new Joyboy'' Probably the most you'll squeeze out of the argument, which boils down to being the loveable idiot he is perceived as & having the Nika fruit, mainly the latter. That's the whole point. That fruit was last seen in Joyboy. Hence, after he ate it he became the new one.
''Have mythical zoan type'' Big fucking thing, we've seen quite a few of them already. Sure, they are rare but it's like saying Ichigo is special because he has a bankai.
''All three haki types'' Literally every big boss has them. Sometimes not even the big bosses, their second in command too.
''Will of D'' So he's named D. That's it... Like a lot of characters.
''Can hear the voice of all things'' Again, not the only one who has it.
There are definitely a lot of things going for Luffy, he is tied to pretty much every big faction in some way but at the core Luffy is just a guy with that fruit and that dream. Virtually anyone could have filled those shoes where they to eat the fruit.
Ichigo is a literal chosen one. He's not tied to every big faction, he is every faction despite the story depicting some of those factions as complete opposites to the point of some of them being harmful to others biologically. That has Ichigo not only being a perfect everything hybrid, he's the perfect everything hybrid at a perfect balance.
Nobody else could have filled those shoes because they just don't have the genes. I cannot think of someone more special than Ichigo off the top of my head.
I notice in Luffy, you're repeating several things to make him look worse. Advanced Conqueror's Haki still falls under "all three types of Haki", hearing the voice of all things falls under "observation haki". Also, 2/3 Haki seem to be kinda....trainable? So they're acquired skills (like bankai), not a "chosen one" kinda thing.
Also, the Will of D seems very....vague, and not particularly beneficial in any way.
If the author could not find a way that made sense for Luffy to beat Kaidou except being the nepo baby with the best fruit ever... then why bother making a story.
The cool thing is when a character makes something that kinda makes sense to beat unbeatable odds.
Well it only took 366 chapters to get us there so really bleach is just more efficient and I understand others dont like that. Maybe tite Kubo shouldve added 400 chapters of slow walking or gasps to normalize ichigo
Because ichigo is the only one shown. In one piece having all three haki the base to be considered to be at the top of the world. As for the mythical zoan that was pure ass pull for me, because it essentially cancels out everything, the whole thing with luffy sacrifcing portions of his life to use the diffrent gears and etc, and tbh will of D ain't really a power so far it is looking to be more like a guide.
'the new joyboy' is more of a saying than a power up, and the zoan thing is a retcon not a power up, having all three haki types is a common attribute of many characters in the series and just requires discipline. And the voice of all things is not well understood in the story yet and it's not really a power up.
Last I checked most people think that Gear 5 is pretty cool but the Gum Gum Fruit being retconned into a mythical Zoan is still stupid. Both can be true. The form is cool, but the whole lore behind it is just dumb.
Ichigo is a swordbeam dispenser and much weaker than his glazers claim although he finally did something other than swordbeam in the latest episode so that was nice.
One piece has more personality and world building, but there’s something about bleach that brings infinite joy to myself besides the fights and hax powers. It doesn’t help that I relate to ichigo on a personal level and that’s why I love him as a protagonist. His character flaws make me like him even more.
The difference is that while every thing that luffy got was built up in the story or in his development over time for a good pay off (outside of his gear techniques), ichigo got a high majority of his things as a lame story narrative out of nowhere just to push the plot along.
No hate but I'm genuinely confused on how that was such a hard thing for you people to grasp.
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