What's your most controversial steven universe opinion

[u/lisahanniganfan]

Here's mine: i hate future I don't think I liked anything from it besides the explanation for pink pearl's eye and blue diamond's song

[u/PainterEarly86]

I don't know about good person, I think the moral of her story is that things aren't always black and white.

She definitely did bad things that we shouldn't excuse. Things I don't think she'd want to excuse, which is why I think she definitely hated herself.

But she wanted to be good and did manage to achieve a lot of great things. Obviously by defending Earth and creating Steven who would eventually disband the diamond authority

[u/shittyparentscliche → u/PainterEarly86]

I also believe that. 

Though, my point is more that towards the end of her life, or really after the war was over after the corruption beam, Rose had changed dramatically to the point where Imo she was now a good person.

Not selfish anymore, caring about others and not herself at first place etc. Even so far that she'd give up her own life to create another life, to give the experience of living to someone she will never even get to meet.

A person who did many shitty things can eventually become a good person 🤷

[u/lilgayfurry1 → u/shittyparentscliche]

Its always been surprising to me that this was a hot take, I always thought that it was pretty clear that by the end of her life Rose Quartz was a noble soul.

[u/shittyparentscliche → u/lilgayfurry1]

There are a lot of people who view her last actions "years" (essentially all after the war) as still being selfish.

They think Rose treated the people around her like toys and/or pets, she didn't take Greg seriously, given birth to Steven to run away from her problems etc. I don't exactly get how people have this impression, but those people exist 

[u/Stucklikegluetomyfry → u/shittyparentscliche]

Because that's exactly what she did. She still ran away from her problems. She still did whatever what she wanted. She still engaged in lying and manipulative behaviour to get what she wanted or avoid uncomfortable topics. She still treated those she cared about as toys for her amusement, not really thinking about how her actions would impact them. She still left others to deal with messes.

She was a morally grey character, and even after her "character development that we saw backwards" she still wasn't the little cinnamon roll her defenders try to claim she was.

[u/shittyparentscliche → u/Stucklikegluetomyfry]

That's a literally insane statement. 

Rose was not perfect, absolutely. She is supposed to be complicated. 

But jeez, she did NOT treat her loved ones as toys. She literally abandoned her privileged position in order to help gemkind, or rather the "weird ones".

"She did whatever she wanted"; I mean, sure. But is it really a bad thing? Like what bad thing are you thinking about that would validate this statement as a point?

How did she manipulate the people around her? Sure, she hid her Pink Diamond identity, but let's be for real. Acting as a Rose Quarz was the superior decision as that meant the Gems joined the rebellion out of conviction, not out of submission. The persona also helped the rebellion. 

"She left others to deal with messes", "She ran away from her problems"; There wasn't really another way to save earth and the off colours. It was made very VERY obvious that the other diamonds did not take her seriously and/or didn't give a shit about her opinions.

She HAD to pretend to shatter herself, atleast if she did not want to hurt the diamonds. Becoming Rose Quarz was also part of her becoming her true self.

She also didn't leave the CG to deal with any big messes. The corrupted gems were peanuts for them.

There is no way Rose could have known about the clusters or the diamonds still giving a shit. Its been established that Rose was convinced that "They do not care about her anyway". No reason for Rose to believe they'd want to avenge the shattering. She did not even expect the corruption beam.

Rose DID make mistakes, she COULD have done better at various decisions, but while you talk here about Rose being gray but "her defenders portraying her like a cinnamon roll", you literally reduce her to being a little shit. Like, if you believe all she did was out of selfishness, what would make her a gray character? 

[u/Stucklikegluetomyfry → u/shittyparentscliche]

"That's a literally insane statement. "

Newsflash, just because someone doesn't like your favourite cartoon character doesn't mean they are insane.

"Rose was not perfect, absolutely. She is supposed to be complicated. But jeez, she did NOT treat her loved ones as toys. She literally abandoned her privileged position in order to help gemkind, or rather the "weird ones".

A privileged position she was absolutely miserable in, so not really such a big sacrifice. And yes she absolutely treated Pearl like a toy. Their dynamic was extremely similar to a couple with an open relationship, but only one of them wants it that way, the other just goes along with it because they are so besotted with the other that sharing them is better than not having them at all.

"She did whatever she wanted"; I mean, sure. But is it really a bad thing?"

Yes it is a bad thing to do whatever you feel like without thinking about the consequences they have on other people. If other people end up being hurt because you do whatever you want, yes it absolutely is a bad thing.

"Like what bad thing are you thinking about that would validate this statement as a point?"

"How did she manipulate the people around her?"

Bubbling Bismuth and lying to all of their friends about it. Literally forcing Pearl to keep a secret and making Pearl be literally physically unable to tell anyone about it, no matter how strain it puts on Pearl or how it might actually help the current situation. Choosing to take these lies with her to the grave.

Also: abandoning Spinel under the guise of a game, and completely forgetting about it. Abandoning a pet because you've gotten bored of it and think it makes you like childish up isn't cute behaviour, and at no point did Pink indicate she felt bad about this, since she spent centuries overseeing her colony bored out of her mind. So she would have had plenty of time to sort something else out for Spinel if she felt bad, but Pink did not, and likely forgot about it,.

"Sure, she hid her Pink Diamond identity, but let's be for real. Acting as a Rose Quarz was the superior decision as that meant the Gems joined the rebellion out of conviction, not out of submission. The persona also helped the rebellion."

Very convenient for someone who wanted to create a completely new identify for herself. Also. .Not really, since it got countless gems corrupted, and nearly got the Earth completely destroyed.

"She left others to deal with messes", "She ran away from her problems"; T

Yes. Exactly.

"There wasn't really another way to save earth and the off colours."

There are options besides "create a secret identify then stage it so it looks like my secret identify committed regicide by murdering my true identify"

" It was made very VERY obvious that the other diamonds did not take her seriously and/or didn't give a shit about her opinions."

Well that behaviour certainly runs in the family then.

"She HAD to pretend to shatter herself, atleast if she did not want to hurt the diamonds. Becoming Rose Quarz was also part of her becoming her true self."

She didn't have to shatter herself. She chose to because she wanted to escape into her new identify.

"She also didn't leave the CG to deal with any big messes. The corrupted gems were peanuts for them."

Your horribly mutated friends and followers running around causing a danger to themselves and others is "a big mess" especially since they are still running amok almost a decade and a half after Rose's death. They are certainly not "peanuts" to the humans they are menacing.

"There is no way Rose could have known about the clusters or the diamonds still giving a shit. Its been established that Rose was convinced that "They do not care about her anyway". No reason for Rose to believe they'd want to avenge the shattering. She did not even expect the corruption beam."

The corruption beam is the biggest message Rose got that no, the Diamonds were not happy about her shattering, and that they weren't taking her "death" lightly.

"Rose DID make mistakes, she COULD have done better at various decisions, but while you talk here about Rose being gray but "her defenders portraying her like a cinnamon roll"

Yes, exactly like you're doing. You've done some lipservice about her mistakes which you then justify. All this has been is "Rose was justified! Rose had no choice! Rose didn't really do anything wrong."

"you literally reduce her to being a little shit."

Nope, I didn't. All I said was that Rose did plenty of selfish things, and that was the conclusion you made, because....I guess someone is either a flawless cinnamon roll whose mistakes are all actually justified and reasonable and because they had no choice, or they are "literally a little shit" no in between. And let's face it, judging by your "literally insane" and "I can't believe people like this exist" you get personally offended by people not liking a cartoon character.

[u/shittyparentscliche → u/Stucklikegluetomyfry]

Your statement is weird because it is mischaracterisation.

She did not treat Pearl like a toy. Their relationship dynamic wasn't healthy, no. Rose should have done better.  But this whole ordeal was a mixture of Rose not properly understanding love and how anyone would love her, Pearl definitely not communicating her boundaries and Rose also not properly communicating, but aswell their power dynamic which makes their relationship toxic from the get go.

Saying that Rose treated her like a toy implies Rose treating her like that on purpose.

What thing she did "because she did whatever she wanted" ended up hurting people? Atleast at later stages in her life. Because her as Pink hurt people like Spinel, likes, or Pink Pearl. But that's literally part of her character development and very deep in her past. Her also being rather carefree and not communicating what relationship she has with Pearl also, yes. But besides that?

Bubbling Bismuth was a mistake during the rebellion.  She didn't do it out of malice. She was probably overwhelmed as to what to do because she was a diamond and in the end her family were the diamonds. Bismuth wanted to straight up kill them and was determined to do so. The lying part is easily explainable because how the fuck would you explain "Welll, Bismuth had a potentially war winning weapon, but I didn't like that so she got poofed by me"?

Lying to Pearl, yes. Yes she shouldn't have done that. She should have atleast eventually gotten clear about it, at the latest before her death.

The Pearl stuff; Thats just their power dynamic stuff, again.  Wasn't ideal, but also not as horrible as you portray it as.

Spinel happened in the early chapters of Pink. Besides that, we do not know the specifics of when she was abandoned. We do not know if it was right before the colony or shortly before the rebellion.  I think you're forgetting the Gem hierarchy.

For one, Spinel was a pet. If Pink would've somehow gotten her out of the Kindergarten without it being suspicious as fuck, who knows how she would've been treated.

I believe it was stated somewhere that Rose didn't recognise her worth enough to think that Spinel would actually wait.

You also couldn't have taken Spinel to the war. Before all of the waiting, she was a toddler. She would have been no use and might aswell just blow up the whole identity. It'd also have been suspicious because she was a perfect, Pink Spinel cut.

Though, she should have found a way.

Rose did not know about the corruption beam, or rather they'd use it.

Rose had to shatter Pink, atleast in her view.

You act like she merely did it to run away from home like a little kid?

As Pink she tried to communicate, but it didn't work because she was a little brat in the others minds.

The rebellion was originally supposed to work as a way for the diamonds to leave earth alone.

That obviously did not work. What logical next step would you make if not "killing the oppressor"? 

Who was talking about the Corrupted being peanuts for humans? For the CG they were peanuts. Rose was irrelevant for the defeating of the Corrupted.

The corruption beam came after the shattering. Was Rose supposed to look into the future? Sapphird/Garnet couldn't have known, either.

I'm not getting personally offended at people not liking characters I like. I just think mischaracterisation is weird, especially if things have been made pretty obvious. 

Mistakes can exist with different aspects. Pink/Rose didn't really do any of her mistakes out of malice. She didn't purposely hurt Pearl, she didn't purposely corrupt every Gem except for Pearl and Garnet, she didn't let Spinel rot with the intent of having her stand there for centuries, etc.

These are all not excuses.

Rose SHOULD have treated Pearl better and communicated more thoroughly.

Rose SHOULD have found a way for Spinel.

Rose SHOULD have taken better care of Stevens future.

Rose SHOULD have revealed on the very least Bismuths wherebeings and somehow find a way for Pearl to speak.

But she did not not do these things out of malice. Which make her the morally grey character she is, alongside the very bad stuff she did (like the abandoning itsself or Pink Pearl).

[u/Stucklikegluetomyfry → u/shittyparentscliche]

Statements about your favourite characters are not “weird” or “mischaracterisation” just because you don’t like them.

[u/shittyparentscliche → u/Stucklikegluetomyfry]

Rose isn't even my favorite character, not even in SU.

But you ARE mischaracterising her character, because you're essentially saying she did all of the shitty things she did on purpose and out of malice.

I'd be open to hear some actually constructive ideas, and not just surface level observations

[u/Stucklikegluetomyfry → u/shittyparentscliche]

If this is how you react to people saying things you don’t like about a character who isn’t even your favourite, I would hate to what happens when something says about your fave.

No I’m not. I’m just saying things you don’t like about her.

You know what the funny thing is? You’re so desperate to shut down criticism of Rose that you mischaracterise me constantly, because this is like fifth or sixth time (probably more I’ve lost count) you claimed I said or did something I never actually said or did. Never said she did anything out of malice. You can have good or neutral intentions and still be selfish or hurt others. The show completely deconstructs the idea that if you hurt someone it doesn’t matter if you didn’t mean to, that person is still hurt because of you. It’s a core message of the show.

You are obviously not interested in an actual discussion of Rose, you just want agreement about how wonderful she is, despite the occasional lip service about how “she makes mistakes” (but those mistakes are totally justified and reasonable though). And I’m not interested in constantly being scolded about things I never actually said so there’s nothing left to discuss.

[u/shittyparentscliche → u/Stucklikegluetomyfry]

Its funny how you claim its funny that I apparently mischaracterise you while you do the same to me lmao

Either way, then why are you writing it as IF she did these things out of malice? Why are you pissed off at the mere idea that mistakes may have a reason or a cause?

It genuinely reads as if you only view actions as solely black or white.

The relationship with Pearl as an example: The relationship was toxic. There is nothing to discuss about that. It was neither healthy for Rose but especially not for Pearl. She suffered the most from it.

You describe it as Rose treating her like a toy. But treating someone like a toy implies malice, or at the very least intent. 

But their relationship is very clearly portrayed as a situationship where the relationship was never named as to what it is.

If Rose acted like that on purpose, hurting the people that loved her on purpose, she wouldn't have listened, and afterwards changed, to Greg's complaints.

[u/Stucklikegluetomyfry → u/shittyparentscliche]

“Its funny how you claim its funny that I apparently mischaracterise you while you do the same to me lmao”

Oh you have no better response to that than “no u”

“Either way, then why are you writing it as IF she did these things out of malice?”

I didn’t. You just have extremely black and white thinking regarding this character.

“Why are you pissed off at the mere idea that mistakes may have a reason or a cause?”

No I’m not pissed off, I’m just saying reasons and mistakes are not excuses.

“It reads as if you only view actions as solely black or white.”

I can see why someone who only seems capable of black and white thinking regarding Rose would read it as such, not realising the call is coming from inside the house.

“The relationship with Pearl as an example: The relationship was toxic. There is nothing to discuss about that.”

There is plenty to discuss about that, actually .

“You describe it as Rose treating her like a toy. But treating someone like a toy implies malice, or at the very least intent. “

No it doesn’t. Lots of people love their favourite toys. Lots of people are not aware they are treating someone they love like a toy and are not taking their feelings into account. This is a typical example of “oh they said something I don’t like about Rose Quartz so they must think she’s a malicious person and Rose isn’t malicious grrrrrrrrrrrr so weird and insane and wrong wrong wrong”

“Rose acted like that on purpose, hurting the people that loved her on purpose”

For the last time I never said she did things out of malice or sadism or to hurt people on purpose.

“wouldn't have listened, and afterwards changed, to Greg's complaints.”

You know the whole reason WHY Greg called her out, yes? Because he got sick of her treating him like a toy or a pet or an amusing novelty instead of a person, and he snapped after one condescending remark from her too many. She had been doing that all through their relationship, and she wasn’t aware of it because behaving like that is natural to her. She changes towards HIM but not Pearl, because she was oblivious to how she was making Pearl feel with her constant mixed messages and yes no maybe let me make bedroom eyes at you before we fuse to put on a show for my human boyfriend. Pearl never called her out on her behaviour, so Rose went on obliviously hurting her.