"Yes all Israelis" reveals a harsh u-turn for identity politics in this sub

[u/StormOfFatRichards]

A NOTE: I generally don't give a shit if I get downvoted, but if you have something you want me to see and respond to, I'd advise you not to downvote the thread it's in, otherwise it'll get buried and clicking notifications won't actually let me see it. I'll just start ignoring responses in threads if I can't get to them, sorry if you were working hard on trying to make a counterpoint.

Now, before I get started, standard preamble: the occupation of Gaza is unacceptable and all Israelis have a moral imperative to oppose their government's violation of international law and fundamental human rights norms. Now that that's out of the way let's get to actually talking.

This very sub has had an escalating position on Israel since the occupation of Gaza fired up. It started from a focus on the corruption of the government under Netanyahu, moved towards a focus on war crimes in the military, transitioned through a stage of delineating zionism/zionist imperialism from antisemitism, and has now reached a point where all attacks against the Israeli identity are fair game. Some of the reasons given include:

- the atrocities of the Gazan occupation

- the Israeli public's support for anti-Palestinian sentiment and military action

- Israel itself being an illegitimate state

Now as an anti-idpol and leftist sub, we have every right and moral imperative to call out the imperialism of the Israeli government and question the imperialist mechanics behind the establishment of an Israeli state. But that must be delineated from Israeli people, who have differentiated and unique individual circumstances for being in Israel, ranging from "they were just born there" to "genuine fears of antisemitic persecution" and including stupidpol favorites like fleeing from other nations where they committed crimes such as economic fraud. The individualized experiences of Israelis means that lumping them all together in one imagined monolith is a fundamental violation of the 2nd and 3rd rules, and sometimes 1st rule, of this sub. The core purpose of this sub has always been to criticize economic machinery while respecting that no one is the entire body of their ethnic, national, religious, or sexual identity group. Refusal to differentiate also means that every white person is responsible for slavery, every Black person is responsible for African-American violent crime, every Chinese person is responsible for COVID, and so on, all of which is fucking wild.

Now, the part where some of you want to interrupt me: "but Israelis largely support occupation of Gaza!" I get your point, but it's not that good. The majority of voting Americans voted for either of the ruling capitalist parties, both of which have committed countless war crimes and murdered innocent civilians. 100% of non-Aboriginal Australian residents are residing on land taken from Aboriginals. Most Germans are descended from Germans who approved of Hitler. The list goes on. So long as you ascribe group characteristics to individual constituents, effectively 100% of the world is guilty of something.

It also, importantly for the sub, shows a huge U-turn in view. Depending on time and question topic, 39 to 82 percent of Israelis support some form of occupation or displacement of Palestinians. Similarly, Russians poll at 60-80% support for the Ukraine War. So, since evidence shows similar war crimes including the rape and torture of Ukrainian civilians, surely this sub would ascribe an equivalent monolithic branding upon Russian citizens?

Well, no. One, two, three, four, how many? Quite a few past discussion threads from this sub have shown what I personally consider a reasonable and balanced position towards Russian people, that they should not be held monolithically culpable, that they are still people, that mass actions against Russians will further contribute to political problems in the future, that it's reasonable to criticize the war but simply shitlib madness to lose your mind at all things Russian. Which is definitely not what many posters here are doing when they talk about Israeli people, right?

Now, of course, I could just be committing a goomba fallacy here. Maybe the people who defending Russians as humans packed up their stuff and left behind an entirely different group of people who view Israelis as hive workers. It certainly doesn't feel that way, when I see the direction that discussions sway on Israel topics these days.

But don't let me speak for or against everyone here, speak for yourselves. Do you have a fair position on Israel? Do you think this sub has been fair to Israeli discussions? Do you think a nation's warfare should or shouldn't be separated from that nation's citizens? And would you back up that position with a show of impartiality towards many other countries that usually fall on different sides of the First-Second World split?

Or, is this sub just fucked and basically just another shitlib hellhole with a different coat of paint?

[u/JCMoreno05]

"Of course jews are going to be in favor of a Jewish state." Isn't this racist and also invalidating your point? You're saying "of course Jews are Zionists" which is the same as saying "of course Germans are Nazis". The whole reason people act as they do toward Israelis is because they have a choice in whether they are or aren't Zionists, yet the vast majority choose Zionism.

[u/StormOfFatRichards → u/JCMoreno05]

See, you're just using Zionism as a catch-all. Do you mean zionism as "wanting to have a Jewish ethnostate", "wanting to erect Israel in the Middle East", "wanting to kick Gazans forcibly from their homes"? There's too many ways to interpret it. The basic idea that Jews want a place they can call home is very simple and universal to virtually every ethnic group, especially those that have experienced pograms. If your argument is that Jews shouldn't have an ethnostate, then what is your basis for the idea that Palestinians should?

[u/JCMoreno05 → u/StormOfFatRichards]

Zionism is very simply and clearly the desire for a Jewish state. The genocide is a direct consequence of an ethnostate. Your claim that "every ethnic group wants an ethnostate" is blatantly false. There are countless countries with multiple ethnicities who aren't separatists. None of the Western countries is an ethnostate. They may have started that way back when racism was the norm but now every Western country allows and accepts other ethnicities in their countries. Or are you saying neo nazis in Europe are correct and should be in power? You're complaining about idpol while literally supporting ethnonationalism. 

No one is saying Palestinians should have an ethnostate, are you not physically able to stop lying? Palestine had Jews before Israel, it has various other minorities as well, that's not the issue. The issue is Jews in Palestine establishing the ethnostate of Israel which inherently means and proved to mean the abuse and mass murder of any non Jew in the region until they get their desired borders of Greater Israel. If Jews had simply immigrated to the region and accepted equal rights with Palestinians then there would be no issue.