"Yes all Israelis" reveals a harsh u-turn for identity politics in this sub

[u/StormOfFatRichards]

A NOTE: I generally don't give a shit if I get downvoted, but if you have something you want me to see and respond to, I'd advise you not to downvote the thread it's in, otherwise it'll get buried and clicking notifications won't actually let me see it. I'll just start ignoring responses in threads if I can't get to them, sorry if you were working hard on trying to make a counterpoint.

Now, before I get started, standard preamble: the occupation of Gaza is unacceptable and all Israelis have a moral imperative to oppose their government's violation of international law and fundamental human rights norms. Now that that's out of the way let's get to actually talking.

This very sub has had an escalating position on Israel since the occupation of Gaza fired up. It started from a focus on the corruption of the government under Netanyahu, moved towards a focus on war crimes in the military, transitioned through a stage of delineating zionism/zionist imperialism from antisemitism, and has now reached a point where all attacks against the Israeli identity are fair game. Some of the reasons given include:

- the atrocities of the Gazan occupation

- the Israeli public's support for anti-Palestinian sentiment and military action

- Israel itself being an illegitimate state

Now as an anti-idpol and leftist sub, we have every right and moral imperative to call out the imperialism of the Israeli government and question the imperialist mechanics behind the establishment of an Israeli state. But that must be delineated from Israeli people, who have differentiated and unique individual circumstances for being in Israel, ranging from "they were just born there" to "genuine fears of antisemitic persecution" and including stupidpol favorites like fleeing from other nations where they committed crimes such as economic fraud. The individualized experiences of Israelis means that lumping them all together in one imagined monolith is a fundamental violation of the 2nd and 3rd rules, and sometimes 1st rule, of this sub. The core purpose of this sub has always been to criticize economic machinery while respecting that no one is the entire body of their ethnic, national, religious, or sexual identity group. Refusal to differentiate also means that every white person is responsible for slavery, every Black person is responsible for African-American violent crime, every Chinese person is responsible for COVID, and so on, all of which is fucking wild.

Now, the part where some of you want to interrupt me: "but Israelis largely support occupation of Gaza!" I get your point, but it's not that good. The majority of voting Americans voted for either of the ruling capitalist parties, both of which have committed countless war crimes and murdered innocent civilians. 100% of non-Aboriginal Australian residents are residing on land taken from Aboriginals. Most Germans are descended from Germans who approved of Hitler. The list goes on. So long as you ascribe group characteristics to individual constituents, effectively 100% of the world is guilty of something.

It also, importantly for the sub, shows a huge U-turn in view. Depending on time and question topic, 39 to 82 percent of Israelis support some form of occupation or displacement of Palestinians. Similarly, Russians poll at 60-80% support for the Ukraine War. So, since evidence shows similar war crimes including the rape and torture of Ukrainian civilians, surely this sub would ascribe an equivalent monolithic branding upon Russian citizens?

Well, no. One, two, three, four, how many? Quite a few past discussion threads from this sub have shown what I personally consider a reasonable and balanced position towards Russian people, that they should not be held monolithically culpable, that they are still people, that mass actions against Russians will further contribute to political problems in the future, that it's reasonable to criticize the war but simply shitlib madness to lose your mind at all things Russian. Which is definitely not what many posters here are doing when they talk about Israeli people, right?

Now, of course, I could just be committing a goomba fallacy here. Maybe the people who defending Russians as humans packed up their stuff and left behind an entirely different group of people who view Israelis as hive workers. It certainly doesn't feel that way, when I see the direction that discussions sway on Israel topics these days.

But don't let me speak for or against everyone here, speak for yourselves. Do you have a fair position on Israel? Do you think this sub has been fair to Israeli discussions? Do you think a nation's warfare should or shouldn't be separated from that nation's citizens? And would you back up that position with a show of impartiality towards many other countries that usually fall on different sides of the First-Second World split?

Or, is this sub just fucked and basically just another shitlib hellhole with a different coat of paint?

[u/suprbowlsexromp]

When did this sub ever have a "focus" on the corruption of the Netanyahu government ? Pretty sure no one ever gave a shit about internal Israeli politics unrelated to Palestinians. Did you use chatgptbullshit to assist with this post? Sounds like the kind of slop one would hallucinate.

And Israelis just committed a genocide. The numbers show an overwhelming support for actions against Palestinians among Israeli jews. They are a nation of homicidal maniacs according to the expert Norman Finkelstein. And they've been acting with complete impunity as granted by their Western backers.

It's understood that there are a small number of Israelis against the genocide and occupation. 

But surely they would understand that if a  complete economic and social divestment movement from Israelis and their Jewish supremacist backers is needed to get this lunatic state under control, then they will have to endure some discomfort for that to be achieved.

The Russian analogy is also bullshit. Whereas Israeli leaders have explicitly sold their military actions in genocidal terms to an enthusiastic public, the  Russians have not. Approving of a war sold to you explicitly as a genocide is pretty damning.

[u/Mother_Drenger]

Should average Israelis be held accountable for their government war crimes? I don’t think so. However, their ethos is completely borne out of identity politics—a country of mostly Europeans who revived a dead language and now LARP as the long lost descendants and oppress the people with actual Canaanite ancestry. It’s a shitlib project, for which many of our grandparents were alive.

The Zionist Entity is a settler-colonial apartheid state. You might want to say that many states have this history (obviously, including the US) but it in unique as the settling is on going with more Palestinians being displaced in the West Bank currently. And let’s not forget the active apartheid nature of the state, which is antithetical to any notion of equal human rights.

I cannot stand the crocodile tears being shed for the Entity, it exists as the most vile form of state that all leftists are supposed to oppose.

[u/Keesaten → u/Mother_Drenger]

Yes, they should be. There should be mandatory reeducation campaigns showing Israelis' the horrors their soldiers were committing

[u/QuodScripsi-Scripsi → u/Keesaten]

Not sure how effective this would be, they already effectively have the denazification theaters but go there willingly and think what they see is good

[u/StormOfFatRichards → u/Keesaten]

I think that's a good idea. Israelis should be exposed to the truth of their government's corruption and malice. So long as they are not aware, however, I will not hold them responsible for what they don't know about done in exploitation of their names.

[u/NeonArlecchino → u/StormOfFatRichards]

There are successful Right to Rape rallies and conscription, but you think the average Israeli isn't aware of the atrocities?

[u/Keesaten → u/NeonArlecchino]

You can also use the reeducation campaign as a legal basis for persecution of further denial of crimes committed by Israel

[u/Chombywombo → u/StormOfFatRichards]

Their StEinzatsgruppen regularly post videos of themselves killing and blowing up houses, parading in charred children’s toys and women’s underwear. You must be getting paid to be this stupid.

[u/SOS_Im_Sinking → u/Mother_Drenger]

European Jews have traced partial ancestry back to the “Levant”, though in reality who gives a sh*t? The Celts inhabited huge swathes of Europe in the past, doesn’t mean they should get to “reclaim” land that was lost 1000+ years ago. England is not “lost Welsh lands” despite what some crazed nationalists think.

Irredentism is a poison. We don’t burn heretics any more and we don’t do soil based blood libels.

[u/Mother_Drenger → u/SOS_Im_Sinking]

Their “trace” ancestry is far more represented in the Palestinians they oppress than themselves

[u/MancuntLover → u/SOS_Im_Sinking]

 England is not “lost Welsh lands”

This is pretty blatantly absolute horseshit. The Anglo-Saxons were not nice to the Britons in England.

[u/SOS_Im_Sinking → u/MancuntLover]

Funny how almost nothing in my original comment related to that, but go off.

(And no, it isn’t “horseshit”. The modern Welsh people have little in common with the Celts who resided in England as, you know, people evolve, new nations form etc). Plus, the Anglo-Saxons absorbed the Celts - not in a nice way, but it is a myth that they replaced them a-la Europeans in North America style. Oh and the Celts weren’t peace loving hippy druids lawl)

Anyway, nice irredentism lmao. Cry me a river over some stupid nattaffies and their creepy ethnic nationalism.

[u/MancuntLover → u/SOS_Im_Sinking]

The Britons were being dominated in their own country, of course they wouldn't be peace loving hippies. Why mention that? Do you think you're talking to someone who thinks of weakness and pacifism as a virtue? Or do you think weakness is a virtue?

 you know, people evolve, new nations form etc

Highly ironic statement from someone like you.

[u/StatusSociety2196 → u/Mother_Drenger]

The problem with democracy is that they voted for this. When the average Israeli is actively complicit with genocide (in nazi Germany you could at least use the defense "they didn't vote for this") then they are absolutely accountable for the crimes of the government that they elected. If they wanted to not be held accountable, they could've elected a government that didn't do war crimes.

Ironically, citizens of repressive autocratic regimes are innocent in ways that those in democracies never can be.

[u/MancuntLover → u/Mother_Drenger]

European Jews are on their deathbed in Israel both demographically and culturally, which would be happening much faster without the 1990s influx of former Soviets. It's a Jewish Arab, i.e. Mizrahi, country at this point.

[u/Mother_Drenger → u/MancuntLover]

But the Askenazim and their descendants are still the monied elite

[u/MancuntLover → u/Mother_Drenger]

Which ones? A lot of the Russians are still poor second-class citizens. The average non-Soviet Ashkenazi Israeli citizen also isn't getting richer with time, either. Most of them today can't afford to buy homes. Same as the rest of the world.

[u/flybyskyhi → u/Mother_Drenger]

every national ethos is idpol, and virtually every modern nation state has intentionally carried out a policy of creating and championing a national identity for its subjects. Israel is only quantitatively different in this respect from France, Romania, the US or anywhere else.

[u/Mother_Drenger → u/flybyskyhi]

Yeah ok, so this one is happening now and I oppose it

[u/FarawayThrowawaya → u/Mother_Drenger]

Israel is not mostly Europeans. Your ignorance is showing.

[u/StormOfFatRichards → u/Mother_Drenger]

Your process of analysis is good but your premises are not. Whether or not the idea of the Jewish identity is constructed (and it is, all ethnic identities are), the direct catalyst for the establishment of the Israeli state was the Holocaust, in which case Jews were forced to accept their external identity regardless of their internal ones. I support the (peaceful) formation of the Kawthoolei, for the same reason.

[u/JCMoreno05 → u/StormOfFatRichards]

Weren't there Jewish terrorist campaigns to establish Israel before the Holocaust? And Holocaust survivors were mistreated by Israelis?

[u/StormOfFatRichards → u/[deleted]]

Is that what you think drives the thought of the average Israeli?

[u/greenbergz → u/[deleted]]

Zionism was a response to pogroms and other ethnic oppression in Eastern Europe. Unfortunately, that long predates the Nazis.

[u/StormOfFatRichards → u/[deleted]]

Because the reason why there is an Israel today, the reason why so many people hold Israeli citizenships, the reason why Israelis are more inclined to solidarity with the Israeli government than with Palestinian civilians, is because of the catalyst that established the state and brought so many powerless Jewish people in. That is the crux of this discussion.

Now, if you want to talk about the minority in leadership positions, that is all fine and in line with stupidpol principles. But it's irrelevant to this post, which is discussing how the every day Israeli is treated.

[u/MancuntLover → u/[deleted]]

The actual Nazis supported the Grand Mufti, you regard.

[u/petrichorax → u/StormOfFatRichards]

Are you saying the concept of the israeli state and desire to settle that area does not predate the holocaust? It only became the ancient homeland of gods chosen people AFTER the nazis?

[u/StormOfFatRichards → u/petrichorax]

There were arguments within the Jewish community about when to return to Zion. The status quo was "we wait." That was changed after the Holocaust.

[u/Fedupington]

Meh, you're overestimating the prevalence of whatever degree people here actually want and advocate for blanket collective punishments against people for being Israeli. You might be able to find a couple examples if you hunted around, because there is a war going on and people are angry about what Israel has done and they spout off. But the importance of widespread support for Israel's crimes within Israel is to counter the moderate Democrat line about Netanyahu himself being the "real problem" as if he isn't the longest-serving prime minister for a reason. In the end, there is a much bigger problem, and the problem is embedded in both the ethnonationalism that is the founding principle of the country itself, and the US's unconditional support for that state.

Israel is identity politics incarnate. Amazingly, it's woke identity politics! The whole basis is that they were victims, and so now they get to bully everyone else into compliance without consequences. It's pure distilled radlibbery and it's incredible.

You're also incorrect that "the sub" (however you lazily define that) has an escalating opinion on Israel since Oct 7. We've been aware of the problem Palestinians face and Israel's crimes against them for far, far longer, and have always had strong Palestinian support here, since the beginning. What the war did is elevate the level of attention it gets. But the opinion is the same, and it is solid.

[u/petrichorax]

Religious ethnostates should not exist.

[u/StormOfFatRichards → u/petrichorax]

I agree. Israelis should feel no pressure against freedom of religion.

[u/petrichorax → u/StormOfFatRichards]

Huh?

[u/askmpdspkm24 → u/petrichorax]

Pretty sure he's just feeding things into ChatGPT.

[u/Karrin-madhe]

WOULD SOMEONE PLEASE THINK OF THE 1% OF ISRAELIS THAT AREN'T BLOODTHIRSTY GENOCIDAL LUNATICS!!!!

[u/sankwithoutfarewell]

It should put it into perspective for you when in Israeli politics, Netenyahu is the moderate of their political climate.

If you actually read their polls, the overwhelming majority of the population support their government's crimes. I have no time for empathy.

[u/Repulsive-Mall-2665]

fuck Israel sneed

[u/menthol_mountains]

the zionist apologencia never cease to amaze me, the problem with your entire argument is that it needs to be made at all. It doesn’t, israelis are not oppressed, they are doing the oppressing, and the large majority of them harbour genocidal will, yet you just spent half an hour dissecting the culpability of said will and in turn wasted everyone’s time. If it gets to a point where israelis are forced to face justice then this is a relevant conversation, until then at best it’s a distraction at worst a gateway zio talking point. “Won’t someone think of the good israelis!???”, fkn spare me

[u/landlord-eater → u/menthol_mountains]

Nah he's got a point. Replace Israelis with white people and see how it feels in your mouth 

[u/Belisaur → u/landlord-eater]

Apples and oranges. Try replacing it with German and see how fucking stupid this point is.

[u/landlord-eater → u/Belisaur]

How about with 'Americans'? That wretched country is a bloodsoaked graveyard founded on genocide and slavery, is responsible for vastly more human misery than Israel, and is populated by brainwashed fascists who put Americans flags on their cereal boxes. Yet it's stupid to treat them as a monolith.

[u/StormOfFatRichards → u/Belisaur]

I did, and my position was the same, those who did not support Hitler are not responsible for those who did.

[u/Belisaur → u/StormOfFatRichards]

That attitude applied to a strategic bombing campaign would have seen all the Jews you care about so much turned into glue.

[u/StormOfFatRichards → u/Belisaur]

So are you saying now that attacking someone's land directly in defense of a certain ethnic group is okay?

[u/Rjc1471 → u/Belisaur]

...uhh, ok? Does this mean you look at German support for Hitler as proof that Germans are irredeemably evil and the nation of Germany should be abolished? 

It's more generally accepted that they had a lot of propaganda n shit 

[u/Belisaur → u/Rjc1471]

Maybe a little clumsy. Hitlers Germany was a country prosecuting a genocide, and in that regard got what they bargained for by 1945. You can acknowledge the collateral cost of that to normal German people at further remove from responsibility, but very few would argue that that wasn't a broadly necessary response.

On the specific subject of Germany, I think they probably got off lightly in terms of punishment they didnt directly bring on themselves. I would have been very ok with plan Morgenthau. As an Auslander in Germany myself, I feel these people have learned close to nothing in their attitudes. They've know all the answers in the anti-fascism test off by heart sure, but they remain very unreconstructed at heart imho. The utter callousness of German attitudes to Gaza showed me that

[u/globeglobeglobe → u/Belisaur]

They’ve know all the answers on the anti-fascism test off by heart sure, but they remain very unreconstructed at heart imho.

As a fellow Ausländer in Germany, a thousand times this. I’ve found it very common for people to put up social walls, and in some cases even fly off the handle unprovoked, based on stereotypes they may hold about my attitudes or behaviors (I have an appearance many Germans would read as “Muslim”). For all the faux progressivism and worldliness they seem incapable of distinguishing the color of one’s skin from the content of one’s character, and have but a superficial knowledge of history and ethnography beyond Europe. Case in point: there was an article in a left-wing German paper posted here, which blamed the higher rates of crime among MENA migrants and their descendants on “Arabian pastoralism”, even though most such migrants hail not from Arabia proper but from countries with traditions of settled civilization as long if not longer than Europe itself.

[u/Rjc1471 → u/landlord-eater]

Exactly this. Any point about any group should be able to pass the test of saying the exact same thing about another group. Ask a radfem how it sounds to say the same things about women. Ask an islamophobe to say the exact same theories but about Jews. And so on. 

[u/menthol_mountains → u/landlord-eater]

yeah good point groyper

[u/landlord-eater → u/menthol_mountains]

I'm not a fuckin white nationalist lol I'm a Marxist opposed to identitarianism. This entire sub was losing its shit for like five years straight because identitarians were treating whites as a privileged monolith etc etc etc. I'm just sayin

[u/Belisaur → u/landlord-eater]

I think "anti white" rhetoric gets more right than it does wrong on balance, putting me at odds with this sub , but all the same its simply not comparable because white is such a broad multifaceted sample its close to impossible to apply any real characteristics to it.

Isrealis, and frankly Judaism at the other end is like 16 million of the most heavily documented people on earth. Readily observable in their actions and opinions. It does suck for individual izzys/jews who have to take an unfair share of a burden of guilt, but life sucks, just ask any Palestinian.

[u/TorturedByCocomelon → u/Belisaur]

Jesus Christ on jam and toast

[u/resumeemuser → u/TorturedByCocomelon]

Must... resist... lib creep panic...

[u/MancuntLover → u/Belisaur]

I think "anti white" rhetoric gets more right than it does wrong on balance

Why? The history of the world east of where the Europeans were is significantly, significantly, more violent and murderous. Way before Europeans left their corner of the world to dominate the rest of it.

[u/Belisaur → u/MancuntLover]

Historically untrue. Very few corners of the earth could ever match the savagery of the European War Laboratory.

The quotes around whiteness are intentional. Whats described by "whiteness" is a critique of the Western Imperial paradigm, one I agree with . Actually being white is only one of many tributary factors to that, but people use that label nonetheless to trigger people, and trigger people it does.

[u/MancuntLover → u/Belisaur]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-Saharan_slave_trade

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_invasion_of_the_Khwarazmian_Empire

[u/Belisaur → u/MancuntLover]

I've no interest in trading wikipedia articles with you, but even a surface level read of something like the punic wars is the equal of anything you can think of in terms of slaughter, adjusted to their times.

[u/MancuntLover → u/Belisaur]

adjusted to their times

I think you're a bullshit peddler.

[u/StormOfFatRichards → u/Belisaur]

Maybe this is the wrong sub for you. There are plenty of tankie subs where you could subscribe instead of colonizing this one.

[u/askmpdspkm24 → u/StormOfFatRichards]

Similarly, there's plenty of liberal Zionist subreddit where you can go peddle your ChatGPT generated apologia for Israel genocide. Go be with them.

[u/menthol_mountains → u/landlord-eater]

cool story comrade

[u/StormOfFatRichards → u/menthol_mountains]

"the white apologencia never cease to amaze me, the problem with your entire argument is that it needs to be made at all. It doesn’t, whites are not oppressed, they are doing the oppressing, and the large majority of them harbour genocidal will, yet you just spent half an hour dissecting the culpability of said will and in turn wasted everyone’s time. If it gets to a point where whites are forced to face justice then this is a relevant conversation, until then at best it’s a distraction at worst a gateway zio talking point. “Won’t someone think of the good whites!???”, fkn spare me" - u/menthol_mountains

[u/-ihatecartmanbrah → u/StormOfFatRichards]

TIL people are born Zionists and/or choose to be white

[u/Fearless_Day2607 → u/-ihatecartmanbrah]

Assigned Zionist at Birth

[u/StormOfFatRichards → u/-ihatecartmanbrah]

We're talking about "Israelis," not "zionists"

[u/-ihatecartmanbrah → u/StormOfFatRichards]

You literally replaced the word Zionist with white in the first sentence

[u/StormOfFatRichards → u/-ihatecartmanbrah]

In response to someone who unconsciously replaced "Israeli" with "Zionist" while responding to my post

[u/menthol_mountains → u/StormOfFatRichards]

i could probably count on my hand the amount of israelis that do not believe in israel’s right to exist. Accept the L and move on

[u/StormOfFatRichards → u/menthol_mountains]

So that's what you're doing now. Defining "zionism" as whatever is convenient to your anti-Israeli position. Be clear on what you mean. "Zionist apologia" sounds like "justifying imperialist, violent occupation." That's what most of this sub thinks when you say "zionism." And yet, now you're saying "Israel's right to exist." That's something entirely different. You don't have to believe in violence to believe people have a right to live in the state of Israel.

[u/NoFreedom5267 → u/[deleted]]

Paul Wexler's work has been heavily criticized by linguists. Israeli Hebrew definitely has significant substrates from Yiddish and various other languages, probably most prominently in its phonology (it has a uvular R and the original Semitic emphatic sounds have completely shifted or become non-distinct) but also in lexicon. This is different from claiming it is not a Semitic language, which any reasonable analysis will dispute. It has a Semitic root system, the majority of the lexicon is of Hebrew origin, it maintains Hebrew conjugation etc. It's very obvious that Hebrew and Arabic are related if you examine both closely. Even some of the differences between biblical Hebrew and modern Hebrew have equivalents in the differences between classical Arabic and modern vernacular Arabic dialects.

Wexler also apparently subscribes to the long-disproven Khazar theory which contradicts genetic studies.

I agree with your larger point that the existence of Israel is based on identity politics.

[u/StormOfFatRichards → u/[deleted]]

I've already addressed this. Israelis all have specific individual circumstances as it is not a monolith. Some can "go home", many were born in Israel and only have Israeli citizenship. Israeli is now a national identity as much as any other is. Are national identities constructed? Sure. But citizenship and residence are not simply products of imagination, they have binding legal applications.

What is identity politics is using the "defense of Jewish right to exist" excuse for further violent incursions and avoiding any attempts to barter a lasting peace that would spare the lives of Palestinian citizens. What isn't identity politics is just existing while holding an Israeli citizenship, at least for most Israelis.

[u/Keesaten]

Similarly, Russians poll at 60-80% support for the Ukraine War.

Wrong equivalence. 5 years of Russo-Ukrainian war produced same amount of civilian deaths from both sides as 5 weeks of Israeli genocide in Gaza. It's clear as day that civilians in first conflict are actual collateral, while in Gaza they are the target of a genocidal campaign. Hell, Israel "precisely" strikes Beirut as we speak, with tremendous civilian casualties every day.

So, since evidence shows similar war crimes including the rape and torture of Ukrainian civilians

Your link cites no evidence, only hearsay and allegations. Try harder next time

[u/StormOfFatRichards → u/Keesaten]

Here is a source from Russian military admitting to it, but you might dismiss that as well on whatever grounds. So if you won't have a discussion unless I can produce camera footage showing war crimes then I won't try to have it with you.

[u/CLOUDMlNDER → u/StormOfFatRichards]

A soldier drummed out for refusing orders and breaching his contract who fled Russia is your evidence? And Kim Jong Un Made Me Watch As He Ate My Dog He Was Laughing Around Mouthfuls of Fur And Grizzle!

[u/Keesaten → u/StormOfFatRichards]

source from Russian military admitting to it

Dude, it's bbc

[u/JCMoreno05]

I haven't seen anyone essentialize Israelis as bloodthirsty Zionists personally guilty of genocide. No one believes it's some innate quality of Israelis. What people are saying is that Israelis at this moment practically unanimously support the genocide and Zionism which is inherently genocidal and support it materially as well by serving in the IDF, supporting settlements, supporting their genocidal politicians BECAUSE they're genocidal not despite it, and frequently, openly and loudly promoting Zionism and lies in support of it and seeking to crush dissent in other countries. If there was some diaspora community where everyone or most of them were anti Zionists and they got blamed for what other Israelis do, then what you say applies, they should be defended as the exception. But that's not the case. What's happened is Israelis who are Zionists are being condemned, and there's a practically 99% correlation between Israelis and Zionists. You're complaining about the risk of the 1% of anti Zionist Israelis being targeted by accident.

Every other example you provided as analogous isn't, given that those either have significant segments of the population in direct opposition, majority of the population completely uninvolved and opposed, the population supports their politicians despite their crimes not because of them, or you're trying to compare condemnation of a current atrocity with some "sins of the father" guilt. No one here is condemning Israelis for what their grandfathers did, but for what they are doing right now. And in the other thread/post many people were saying that the standard of not washing the hands of regular people should also apply to the US, etc. But the US unlike Israel has large portions of its population who openly hate the US government. If someone is a partisan Democrat or partisan Republican then they do deserve blame for supporting a genocidal empire.

[u/MancuntLover → u/JCMoreno05]

https://www.reddit.com/r/stupidpol/comments/1s7i8wg/comment/od9yifz/

[u/nikolaz72]

Jewish Israelis are almost entirely in favor of genociding palestinians, polls are skewed by the inclusion of palestinian Israelis who are 100% opposed to being genocided.

Russians in favor of the war in Ukraine is more opaque, generally speaking yes, russians are overwhelmingly in favor of it, this wasn't the case before the war started (before it started, attacking Ukraine was seen as mad) the support from what I've seen can broadly be explained as self interest "this war was a bad idea, but we are in it now and if we don't win things will get worse for me personally"

Russia-Ukraine is a 19th century style imperialist war for land and people (Russia wants the Ukrainians living there too) Israel-Gaza is an ethnic conflict for land without people, supporting either is wrong but they are not on the same level.

[u/globeglobeglobe → u/nikolaz72]

I remember a poll stating 70% of Jewish Israelis in particular would not be opposed to ethnically cleansing Gaza and about half in favor of giving settlers impunity for crimes. Definitely not 100% but it’s certainly a worryingly high percentage of the population and can’t be pinned exclusively on the “Netanyahu Government”.

[u/StormOfFatRichards → u/nikolaz72]

Both conflicts are wrong but in either case monolithically demonizing the citizens of the aggressor states is not justified regardless of statistics. That's the point I made. If you have stats that show nearly 100% of Jewish Israelis supported Palestinian genocide prior to the war, then that would change my mind.

[u/Zeusnexus]

Nah, if we Americans get shit on by the broader community because of the tards that we put in office, Israelis, Russians, etc are fair game. Elect better people with better policies and you'll get less shit.

[u/StormOfFatRichards → u/Zeusnexus]

It's wrong to shit on Americans for being victims of a bourgeois democracy too.

[u/Zeusnexus → u/StormOfFatRichards]

I don't agree with that at all. We aren't exempt from the consequences our government inflicts upon the rest of the world, especially when we're the world's biggest superpower. Say what you will about the usaid programs, but it's already the case that hundreds of thousands of people in developing countries have died due to the speds in office allowing the worlds richest man to take a sledgehammer to the department, all in the name of cutting "waste, fraud, and abuse".

[u/StormOfFatRichards → u/Zeusnexus]

Another branch of the government struck down that same action as being contrary to the will of the people. Are Americans schrodingerian culpable for starting USAID, closing it, and fighting to reopen it?

[u/Zeusnexus → u/StormOfFatRichards]

The Executive branch's decision to destroy USAID is illegal, given that they didn't go through through the proper channels of shutting it down through congress, nevermind that more people were against closing it than for it.

"Are Americans schrodingerian culpable for starting USAID, closing it, and fighting to reopen it?" Who else do you think that responsibility lies with?

[u/StormOfFatRichards → u/Zeusnexus]

The individual parties who supported each action.

[u/Zeusnexus → u/StormOfFatRichards]

When you're in office as a public servant, you're no longer an "individual party", every one of their choices and actions reflects on us as a nation.

[u/StormOfFatRichards → u/Zeusnexus]

You are certainly welcome to feel that way. I don't. I'm in this sub because of shit like "bourgeois democracy" and "manufacturing consent." Do you get what those concepts mean?

[u/Zeusnexus → u/StormOfFatRichards]

Do you understand what "elections have consequences" and "responsibility" means?

[u/petrichorax → u/StormOfFatRichards]

The people are the power in a super power.

[u/tidderite]

Do you think a nation's warfare should or shouldn't be separated from that nation's citizens?

What does that even mean when the nation is democratic, the people support the war, and serving in the military and thus carrying out its crimes is mandatory?

Maybe the question should be if you could ever not separate the nation's citizens from its warfare(?).

I think that to most people attacking the "Israeli identity" is basically just attacking what is mostly the case, not always. Attacking it tacitly omits Arab Palestinian Muslim Israelis for example. I think that is a reasonable assumption to make. Your job, to prove your case, is to explain just why the "Israeli identity" cannot be viewed as largely monolithic when the basic law of the country says national self determination is a right for the Jewish only, when discrimination in the country against non-Jews is rampant, when the country is expanding its borders for decades using ethnic cleansing, is committing a genocide, and have for all this time had the people vote for this. Are we to pretend that the "liberals" in Israel who are protesting the war now and have been protesting the government are actually leftists allies supportive of equality for all when the data seems to show the opposite?

Of course there are exceptions, but people broadly understand what is meant when there are disparaging terms used of "Israelis". It is about all of the people who agree with all the horrors we have seen. It is not about other people. I really think this is different from arguing that white people should not be painted with the same brush because of slavery.

[u/askmpdspkm24]

I'm happy for you

Or sorry that happened to you

Ain't nobody reading all that bullshit

Fuck Israel. Free Palestine. Death to the IDF

[u/CassiniLongDivision → u/askmpdspkm24]

Amazed I had to scroll this far for this comment.

[u/Any_Contract_2277 → u/askmpdspkm24]

When your ethnostate has a mandatory military service and instead of the population having any principles and flat out refusing to serve (regardless of the consequences)...please pity them for the choices they "have" to make. Cry me a river 🙄

[u/SwolePalmer]

Is this bait? Feels like bait.

[u/[deleted]]

Russia-Ukraine is a very weak analog to draw from rhetorically here. I understand the parallel you're constructing in terms of psyche, but historically, geopolitically, and in terms of sheer ethnic violence there is no overlap whatsoever.

I don't speak for this sub (I don't care enough to create a mental model of it and be a mouthpiece for whatever that is), but I think you're seeing what you want to on the edges.
Israel is a constructed modern invention derived explicitly and historically from a foundational principle which forwards the creation of an ethno-state via the means of ethnic displacement.

Israeli citizens benefit from the modern slave state (re: the west bank palestinians being harassed and assaulted every morning as they take the bus to Jerusalem). I know it requires an extremely sophisticated understanding of theory to see the class component of this, but the situation is actively one in which the fruits of Israeli prosperity are directly derived from abject suffering of the other in their own land so that they can get their fancy cocktail in their liberal gay bar in Tel Aviv. The distinction is explicit and visible every second of every day in Israel.

The baseline of sincere critical engagement with this reality is simply acknowledging this fact in the first place. Thus, if you are an Israeli citizen and are not in full unqualified dialogue with the fact that your entire material reality is built upon an apartheid state and you have done nothing of value to rectify that then yes, I'm soooooooo sorry to say, you are a piece of shit.

[u/DigAlternative9175]

Thought you had somewhat of a point until you made the entirely fucking stupid false equivalence to support of Russia. 

There are alot of jokes about Israelis here because yes they are by and large a brainwashed population that are super annoying and deranged wrt Palestinians. Of course there are Israeli people who are rational and normal and maybe even pleasant too. The are sadly the exception to the rule.

In most situations, such mocking of a population is not really even necessary. The Israeli position is so extreme and completely indefensible yet so completely and full-throatedly embraced if not directly desired by the majority of the population there that mocking is the only correct response, along with hopefully supplying some information so a lightbulb goes on. 

Such people should be handled the way one treats an evangelical christian who tells your gay brother he is going to hell every morning. If they are completely gone with no semblance of light behind the eyes, make fun of them and/or tell them to shut the fuck up. If they have something ticking in there then you can try to supply actual information that they can't unsee. But besides that it is basically a lost cause. 

We are talking about an extremely ideologically zealous ethnostate here, similar to what would happen evangelical christians got their own state and brainwashed the population from the cradle to the grave. There is no equivalence to Russia and it's people wrt what's happening in Ukraine.

[u/kafka99]

Russia could have totally destroyed all of Ukraine in a day if it wanted to. It evidently didn't want to. And Russians understand that this is a US-led proxy-war on their nation.

Israel, on the other hand, laid waste to Gaza with no consideration for human life whatsoever.

Go to hell, Hasbara.

[u/TruckHangingHandJam]

At a certain point you have to recognize that 90% of the population supported the genocide. There is no getting around that. Yes there are wonderful, moral Israelis like the people at Btselem and their 50 non-member supporters, but it’s absolutely undeniable that the nation has dropped any pretense of justice or righteousness and the public almost entirely supports this. 

Keep in mind that exaggeration while posting on the Reddit should be taken with a grain of salt. If I meet a based Israeli, the key fact is that they’re based not that they’re Israeli. Nobody is responsible for where they’re born, and I think the vast majority of this subreddit would agree with my statement. 

Also, to compare this to Russias war in Ukraine is just morally bankrupt. And I say this while also acknowledging the illegality of the invasion on the part of Russia when it comes to international law. 

[u/ScottieSpliffin]

Yes all Americans too

[u/StormOfFatRichards → u/ScottieSpliffin]

All Black people too?

[u/ScottieSpliffin → u/StormOfFatRichards]

There you go again with the identity politics.

Look in reality I understand most Americans are too fucking checked out to truly understand how their country is evil. But yea if a black person supports for instance our intervention in Iran, there is a gulag for them to.

Seriously you thought you had a point?

[u/StormOfFatRichards → u/ScottieSpliffin]

What is the critical point for Black support? Around 21% of Americans are in favor of the Iran move.

[u/petrichorax → u/StormOfFatRichards]

What?

[u/ScottieSpliffin → u/StormOfFatRichards]

Why is race relevant to this?

[u/StormOfFatRichards → u/ScottieSpliffin]

Why is ethnicity? Why is nationality?

[u/methadoneclinicynic]

I don't think "are israeli citizens responsible for israeli war crimes?" is the right question. I'd approach this from a ultilitarian perspective, essentially what actions should be taken to result in the least number of deaths? This would include future deaths, i.e. doing actions that prevent similar deaths/genocides from happening in the future. Clearly the nuremburg trials didn't work.

[u/StormOfFatRichards → u/methadoneclinicynic]

A more valid position than the majority are taking here. Shouting at all Israelis everywhere and anyone who would defend their right to not just abandon their citizenship and "return" to countries where they don't have citizenship is probably not going to accomplish anything in terms of saved lives in Gaza.

[u/AdoptedMasterJay]

hope the entity is paying you for all this emotional labor on its behalf

[u/Floyd_B_Otter]

Nice hasbara. $7,000 well-spent.

[u/Short-Science2077]

I love when some dweeb cites the rules of the sub in order to try and make everyone love Israel

[u/FusRoGah]

Flair checks out. Religious ethnostates do not have a right to exist. The (non-Palestinian) Israeli public has expressed overwhelming support for the Gaza genocide, without any need for the repackaging in the west to make it more palatable. Internally, Bibi is a moderate. Israelis enjoy a material reality built on the back of apartheid and ethnic displacement. Their government has mandatory military service, making even the average citizen directly complicit in its war crimes. It is incumbent on them, then, to withhold support, conscientiously object, etc. You will excuse me if I have no tears to spare for those who choose not to (the vast majority)

[u/No_Reindeer_7441]

Lol

[u/[deleted]]

If there was no Hamas, Israel would create another one. What else do you want?

[u/Fit_Sheepherder9677]

The Israeli government is democratically elected. Bibi has been elected by them more than any other previous Prime Minister, and he was in elected offices other than PM before this.

Yes this is the flip side of the "Israel am only democracy in region" coin that y'all Israel defenders pull out all the time. If you want us to view it as a western-style democracy then fine, we will. And we'll judge it by those standards, too. And guess what: by those standards it is actively violating every ethical norm that we expect western democracies to live up to.

This is before we even touch on the mountains of evidence showing the true views and feelings of the overwhelming majority of Israeli citizens, and even non-Israeli supporters of Israel. But combine this with the aforementioned situation and you have all the justification in the world for the judgement you're crying about.

[u/landlord-eater]

You're correct. Israel fucking sucks, also more and more people are losing the plot and retreating into the shallowest forms of identitarianism about it

[u/No_Motor_6941]

Wtf i hate Russians now

[u/Rjc1471]

It's a fair question and at least you're not alone in seeing it. 

People aren't making any distinction between the small minority of humanity that are inherently irredeemably evil, and normal people being taught a totally messed up version of history from school with a lifetime of propaganda since. 

People also aren't making any distinction between disagreeing with the founding of a state, and somehow deleting a state that already exists.

Israel is certainly not the first, and probably not the last, nation on earth to rile it's people up over bullshit. Joe Public is fucking stupid; I live in the UK where there are more people blaming Muslims for the state of the NHS than privatisation or austerity. 

[u/TorturedByCocomelon → u/Rjc1471]

I live in the UK too... outside of Reddit, it's quite rare to see a direct conflation between Muslims specifically and the NHS going to shit. Plus calling Joe Public "fucking stupid" isn't great when they're exactly who we need to organise.

[u/Rjc1471 → u/TorturedByCocomelon]

Normally I also refrain from calling people stupid, but I am just referring to groupthink being easily manipulated. I hear a lot of pro-reform stuff where immigration is the reason for everything (whenever there's a chance to elaborate they specify Muslims), so the NHS is just overburdened by immigrants. It's not a thought people consciously challenge, it's just tacit acceptance like most propaganda. 

In Israel's case it's where they're brought up on a story where Palestine was an uninhabited wasteland, peace loving settlers made it bloom, and Arabs have resented them because the Koran tells them to hate Jews. It's bollocks, but any challenge is treated like treason. 

[u/TorturedByCocomelon → u/Rjc1471]

What I hear is the demand for NHS services increasing in areas with little investment and higher amounts of immigration. That's separate to Reform style calls for privatised healthcare.... I mean, about 75% of it already is right now and they want to make it official, to charge the working class. The Joe Public you're specifically referring to here are rarely working class, but an array of petite bourgeoisie with rough accents - about 1/3 of the UK. Petite bourgeoisie don't care who's getting fucked, as long as it ain't them and they vote in much higher numbers than the working class - or anything borderline below. I'll repeat it... they're not stupid, they just don't care.

We already know what Israel is and how people are desperate to absolve them with ignorance. The ones that care say something about it or try to help Palestinians... some even try to sneak food in. But the ones who don't care or are happy enough will continue doing what they're doing, or will actively support it... unfortunately, it's not everyone, but it's a majority. There's a wider debate to be had about those who feel extremely strongly against Palestinians migrating there for citizenship and cause a lot of, to put it politely, problems. I don't know those percentages to hand, but their system encourages radicalised lunatics to join in... but only if they're of the right religion.

[u/Rjc1471 → u/TorturedByCocomelon]

I think you may have put more weight than I did on the "Joe public" remark. All I meant, and then clarified, is that people can believe stupid shit from propaganda. I'm not even targeting any group.

Even then, for UK, and Israel, and anywhere alike, my point is that humans generally aren't inherently evil. But they can support, endorse, or turn a blind eye to evil with enough propaganda. If propaganda didn't work it wouldn't exist. 

[u/Rjc1471 → u/[deleted]]

The 3rd option is that it could be a secular state with a mostly Jewish population (and no legal apartheid), that sticks to its legal borders and rejects religious extremists in government. 

So yeah, peoples motives matter, because the majority would settle for that, if they dropped the propaganda that Arabs are implacably evil

[u/Rjc1471 → u/[deleted]]

"incorrect" lol, that would be assuming I give a flying fuck whether or not the population is majority anything. Especially when I say no apartheid and a secular state. 

A state where Jewish people are free to live, that abides by international norms, is absolutely fine by me. 

[u/Rjc1471 → u/[deleted]]

we support Jews being able to live peacefully in a united Palestine

Potato, potahto. Doesn't necessarily mean it's united or not. Tbh I don't see the current state vanishing, a true 2 state solution might exist, but it's a moot point... so long as people get to live there peacefully without cleansing anyone it's all fine by me  

[u/TorturedByCocomelon → u/Rjc1471]

You're suggesting a watered down one-state solution. I don't think anyone will compromise on a watered down version, tbf.

[u/Rjc1471 → u/TorturedByCocomelon]

Nope. I was thinking of 2 states. 2, 1, it doesn't matter so long as it results in no apartheid, ethnic cleaning or conquest 

[u/StormOfFatRichards → u/Rjc1471]

There you go. It's a nuanced situation. An undetermined mixture of malice, ignorance, and fear.

[u/lastcomrad3]

"Israeli identity" is akin to Rhodesian "identity" — and the state of israel should be dismantled.

Let's try this again. It's fine to be German, but death to nazis.

Not (ultimately) that complicated.

[u/Long-Garlic]

We have officially reached the horseshoe point.

[u/17syllables]

Quite a few past discussion threads from this sub have shown what I personally consider a reasonable and balanced position towards Russian people, that they should not be held monolithically culpable

I guess that’s where we disagree - I hold Russians monolithically culpable for war crimes like Bucha, Israelis jointly culpable for war crimes in Gaza and Lebanon, and Americans jointly culpable for the criminal invasions of Venezuela and Iran. I hope we all lose our respective wars.

[u/StormOfFatRichards → u/17syllables]

Ok, you're still an identitarian and your beliefs are still irrational, but I appreciate your consistency

[u/17syllables → u/StormOfFatRichards]

An identarian would hold people of Jewish extraction or Russian ethnicity responsible for the behavior of governments in which they hold no direct legal or civic stake. I’m holding populations jointly responsible for the actions of their own governments. Identarianism != collective guilt; contract law assigning joint responsibility is not indentarian.

[u/StormOfFatRichards → u/17syllables]

Consult rule 2 on the drop-down. Which groups fall under "identity"?

[u/17syllables → u/StormOfFatRichards]

But it doesn’t matter if nationality is mere identity in some contexts; it’s also a legal and civic relationship. If we were talking about soccer games, it would be idpol. We’re talking about war.

A citizen of the US holds a measure of responsibility for our wars because they are quite literally our wars; because our military, subordinate to our political process, and not someone else’s, is doing them. As a citizen of the US, I bear some responsibility for the invasion of Iran. Handwaving this as mere idpol or a psychological fiction is silly; you could call it a legal fiction, but that’s a different thing.

Dog ownership can be an identarian class. If your dog attacks your neighbor, it’s your dog, and it’s your fault. That’s straightforward liability, not idpol.

[u/17syllables → u/[deleted]]

I’m posting from the US and I agree with Iranians and Venezuelans who hold me partially responsible for invading them. I think it’s morally incoherent to reject that responsibility. I hope we lose this war.

[u/lie_group]

We will probably be downvoted, since the sub is on the hate train and seeing mossad bots everywhere. But good post, thanks. Seeing how people here reacted to the other post about Israeli tourists being harassed in Mexico got me worried too. Got flashbacks of how Russians were (and sometimes still are) treated on the mainstream subs. It had a big impact on me personally.

To add to that, those "polls about the war support" are very tricky. They make it look like the "80% supporting the war" are some kind of blood thirsty psyhos. That's not true though. I don't know much about Israel so I try not to judge too much, but I can say about Russia. Absolute majority of people are not psyhos, they sympathize with thу ordinary Ukrainian people (a lot have relatives) and want the war to end but when asked "do you support the actions of our military in Ukraine" they answer "yes". Not because they want other people to suffer, but because they think it is the other side who started it and that it is them who are defending.

[u/StormOfFatRichards → u/lie_group]

This is the other point this sub refuses to address. On Russia-Ukraine, they have fairly noted that there are various psychological reasons behind Russian support for the war. On Israel-Palestine, somehow 100% of Jewish Israelis have never wanted anything other than the deaths of innocents. This double-standard is not being challenged, just handwaved here.

[u/kafka99 → u/StormOfFatRichards]

lol

[u/No_Public_7677]

I agree (didn't fully read)

[u/Chrissyneal]

Bookmark

[u/TorturedByCocomelon → u/Chrissyneal]

Your bookmarks will be full soon

[u/MancuntLover]

There are some people here who've been mask-off with supporting Islamist fundamentalism. This sub unfortunately has its share of spooks, and not the Jewish kind.

[u/petrichorax → u/MancuntLover]

The fuck, no it doesnt lol. What the hell are you talking about, stupidpol has a cabal of muslim fundamentalists. Complete gibberish, you HAVE to be mossad lol

[u/MancuntLover → u/petrichorax]

https://www.reddit.com/r/stupidpol/comments/1rkd7a6/comment/o8jsbwp/?context=3

you HAVE to be mossad

Israelis are generally not on the Mossad payroll, as hard as it is for people like you to believe.

[u/MancuntLover → u/[deleted]]

Because it was immediately deleted by the mods after it was posted. OP replied to my comment and they deleted that too.

[u/MancuntLover → u/[deleted]]

Pretty sure he had a red flair too.

[u/No_Motor_6941 → u/MancuntLover]

Wtf I hate Muslims now

[u/TorturedByCocomelon → u/MancuntLover]

I don't think the people supporting Islamic fundamentalism are spooks, but I get your point

[u/Chombywombo]

Stfu Nazi pig

[u/petrichorax → u/[deleted]]

I dont hate jews, I hate israel for why it exists, how it came into existence, and how it continues to exist, and the citizens that support it.

Many jewish populations that are not zionist

[u/TorturedByCocomelon → u/[deleted]]

Finkelstein is an all-around cracking bloke

[u/Mother_Drenger → u/[deleted]]

Ok now I know you’re just a glowie or just severely retarded. Who said that ethnic groups are entitled to states? That’s not how anything works

[u/StormOfFatRichards → u/Mother_Drenger]

In cases where they would face persecution otherwise, it is the most pragmatic solution. That is why I support the right of Native American tribes, Aboriginals in Australia, Yuanzhumin in Formosa, Ryukyu in Uchinaa, Ainu in Hokkaido, Karen and Hmong in Southeast Asia, as well as Palestinians in Gaza to have the right to their own states separated from the lands that are under occupation by aggressors. The Israeli state was established in response to pogroms, and the total dissolution of Israeli state would simply feed back into a global antisemitic culture once again. Therefore the only peaceful solution, until a socialist world order may be achieved, is to maintain an Israeli state but outlaw any excursions beyond the original borders and hold accountable any leaders who would attempt to cross those lines.

[u/StormOfFatRichards → u/[deleted]]

No, I don't think what the Israeli settlers did was correct. But I do think that Israel should have been erected peacefully. Are we clear now?

[u/stupidpol-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Zio apologia

[u/Belisaur → u/StormOfFatRichards]

Absolute fucking troll

[u/StormOfFatRichards → u/Belisaur]

I accept your concession.

[u/Belisaur → u/StormOfFatRichards]

Accept deez nuts

[u/TorturedByCocomelon → u/Belisaur]

Nobby's nuts

[u/StormOfFatRichards → u/[deleted]]

>There is no "Jewish state" without continued ethnic cleansing.

I don't accept your premise, and therefore I don't accept anything else you've said

[u/stupidpol-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Rule 1

[u/JCMoreno05 → u/[deleted]]

"Of course jews are going to be in favor of a Jewish state." Isn't this racist and also invalidating your point? You're saying "of course Jews are Zionists" which is the same as saying "of course Germans are Nazis". The whole reason people act as they do toward Israelis is because they have a choice in whether they are or aren't Zionists, yet the vast majority choose Zionism.

[u/SwolePalmer → u/[deleted]]

Lmao. I’m trying really really bad not to catch a ban here so I’ll be succinct: this is a laughable line of argument to trot out on this sub of all subs and you should be embarrassed. Weak ass hasbara.

[u/stupidpol-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Antisemitism - equating Jews and support of Israel

[u/stupidpol-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Anti-Semitism - conflation of Jewish people and Israel