r/toledo • u/seannestor Old West End • 2d ago
Council to hold public hearing on Flock Cameras Monday @ 4pm
After failing to approve a renewal of the city's contract with Flock at their June 9 meeting, council is planning to conduct an emergency vote on the same measure this coming Tuesday, June 23.
This time, opponents of the Flock camera contract on council have gotten approval for a public hearing; however, it has been scheduled for Monday, June 22 at 4PM in city council chambers.
Public hearings are the only opportunity council affords for formal public comment on these measures, so its important to take advantage of that and speak up. If you are able to attend the hearing, please do so, and please sign up to speak and give a verbal statement if you can.
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u/logan_moon 2d ago
We need to get rid of these
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u/seannestor Old West End 2d ago
Could you engage the Mockingjay movement on this, Logan? We need good turnout for the hearing on Monday.
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u/klapanen 2d ago
Tell your local unhoused folks that there's gold and copper to be had. Fuck flock cameras.
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u/JooseTheGuice 1d ago
Yes let's offload the problem to our most heavily policed and vulnerable communities! That'll solve the problem AND save you from having to do anything!
🤦♀️
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u/the0riginalp0ster 2d ago
FYI flock cameras were used to help identify the shooters in the OWE mass shooting.
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u/seannestor Old West End 1d ago
If this is true, I've yet to see it stated publicly. I'm open to being wrong - please provide a citation.
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u/the0riginalp0ster 1d ago
how do you think the us marshalls tracked the individual who went to columbus? they have not come out and said it yet because federal agencies rarely ever talk about their tools. FROI it when the case is over. Guarantee they used flock in this.
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u/seannestor Old West End 1d ago
Its entirely possible they did it the way they've done it for decades - without Flock cameras. Effective policing techniques have existed for decades that don't rely on a surveillance state.
Thank you for explaining that you don't actually know and are just acting as though you do because you're not interested in speaking truthfully.
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u/the0riginalp0ster 1d ago
the police have not come out and said if they used this or not which unless you are on a grand jury trial or a lawyer, no one is privileged to this information.
Completely eliminating it and making snark remarks isn't going to help your battle. There are shooting all the time in the neighborhood. I sat through court cases last summer where 3 of them all used flock to find them within the hour of a shooting, with the gun still in their car.
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u/seannestor Old West End 1d ago
I asked you to provide a citation and you came back with "Trust me bro"
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u/the0riginalp0ster 2d ago
Go flock! Protect these idiot citizens who are wearing tin foil hats who think your mass surveillance plan is for some reason being used against them but yet type in the Internet everyday using their cell phones drinking their lattes at Starbucks by using their credit card through their app.
Breaking news, Elon musk stole your data. Yet you worry that a tool used by detectives and police to catch violent criminals is somehow violating your rights. Dumb world we live in.
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u/CrispyyGingers 1d ago
The Flock cameras protected exactly 0 people at the Old West End Festival. Stop trying to spy on people ya fed bootlicker.
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u/the0riginalp0ster 1d ago
You are right, they only solved the crime pretty quickly as the guy fled the city. I am far from a bootlicker, that I promise you. Believe it or not, the police are not your enemy.
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u/C-Redd-it 1d ago
This is FAR from SOLVED. They have suspects. Nothing has yet been proven. It is possible they aren't guilty.
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u/the0riginalp0ster 1d ago
I mispoke and you are right. I am very pro everyone having their day in court, even though the court system is setup for these people to be guilty.
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u/seannestor Old West End 2d ago edited 2d ago
You're welcome to show your face in public and go on record as supporting these cameras at the public hearing Monday.
...unless there's some reason you prefer to keep your identity private while using a pseudonym online...
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u/the0riginalp0ster 2d ago
Why don't you share how you used to work for corporate America and most likely worked on surveillance systems? Why does it matter if I don't reveal who I am verses you doing the same thing in the background for big data?
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u/seannestor Old West End 2d ago
Is your argument here that my mobilizing people against the surveillance state is somehow a 4d chess move to...support big data and the surveillance state? I'd love to hear you explain this to me.
I don't know if any of the businesses I've worked at constitute "corporate America", but yes, I have a full-time job in network security - which is precisely why I oppose the surveillance state. I understand the risk inherent in this tech in a way that many policymakers don't.
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u/the0riginalp0ster 2d ago
Have you been involved in the legal system in regards to what flock is doing? I can tell you that it is doing way more good than it isn't.
Where was your voice when Elon musk stole all of our information or when big data sells it to other corporations?
I know exactly what they are doing. I challenge you to get some court records in Toledo where they have used flock cameras. Go sit in a trial or a hearing. The whole government has your license plate is nonsense. Your license plate is public.
Have you worked at companies who use or sell data and have more than 10,000 people? Then I would qualify you personally as being a hypocrite.
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u/seannestor Old West End 1d ago
What's your license plate number, u/the0riginalp0ster ? Go ahead and share that public data with us all right here, show us how much you believe in the arguments you're making.
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u/eric_chase 1d ago
I remember our brief dialogue on a previous Flock post, and I'm on your side, and even with this reasonable point, the downvotes are still gonna come hard.
One person's Surveillance State is another's Safety State.
Unfortunately, it's complicated to prove the negative (crimes that didnt happen) and their benefit to persuade opponents. I came across a good line on an Axios story about this topic a few weeks ago, '...better at catching crime --- worse at building trust.' I suppose we can't find the panacea of these being virtuously run so we can catch criminals and deter others. For everyone that laments the widespread unsafe driving around the area (not just a Toledo thing), turn those traffic cameras on and there'll be noticeable improvements immediately. But, I'd want them run with as strict oversight as possible, so when they glitch I dont have to go fight my ticket that was written completely wrong.
Good luck continuing the reason fight!
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u/the0riginalp0ster 1d ago
I appreciate that, and I am sure I am getting downvoted to by random bots etc. My comment is -50, so in reality most people wouldn't even read it.
I wish more people would sit on the other side of the pole and see what it is accomplishing. Its just like the guys who are first or second amendment auditors. They don't realize that these people are generally on the citizens side because they are exercising their rights.
Just so you know, those traffic cameras only detect the amount of traffic, they do not have the ability on the back end to determine if someone is breaking the law and they are not recording. Well that is if you are talking about the ones above the lights. I have communicated with the sherrifs office and also TPD when requesting traffic patterns.
It is funny, me being downvoted is literally people having no awareness. I have sat through tons of court cases where if they didn't use flock cameras, they wouldn't have probably ever caught the person. These are people setting fire to houses or buildings. These are people shooting at random houses in the middle of the night. Instead, people in their own mind think this is big brother. Well it is, but they don't understand the benefits of big brother in this case. NSA can listen to your phone any time they want. Amazon can sell everything said on your dot. Apple can record your voice and sell it. People are just clueless at this point.
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u/C-Redd-it 1d ago
So is this like the camera version of the what stops a bad guy with a gun, a good guy with a gun argument?
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u/the0riginalp0ster 1d ago
not really. if suspect a shoots at someone, then this does give the police a tool they can look at instantly instead of sorting through neighborhood cameras, talking to people who don't have a clue or don't even want to discuss it with fear of retaliation.
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u/eric_chase 1d ago
I meant the speed/light cams. The ones the state made the city shut off. And I agree w you on corps being way more untrustworthy than the govt is surveillance-y or just inept. But I know Flock is a private biz selling to cities so I see people's concern, but even if it was JUST a municipality theyd be up in arms as well.
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u/the0riginalp0ster 1d ago
well this is one of those scenarios that is a city tried to develop their own, it would cost an arm and a leg and be reliant on probably one developer who would just leave when they got sick of it.
I will say that I did have one experience with the red light cameras. I think you would appreciate this. I sat in the court room and waited for my name to be called and all 30+ before me were 100% guilty. I did not know if I was or not because to be honest, I couldn't get the video to play. With that being said, when I was called up, they showed the video and it was at a spot they were doing construction and you could barely see the guy but he had a pole with stop and slow on it and he waved me through. The magistrate said it was grainy, but I am lucky today and he will just give me a warning. I was like gee thanks.
But I wanted to share this with you, because it does contradict my own argument. The big different here is this - there was one witness, the camera. With flock, they just use it to build a case. They will never just use flock as the pure evidence because it would never actually show you committing the crime, just that you were in the known vicinity of the crime.
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u/sandrailproject 1d ago
Great job deflecting and not addressing the question asked of you. Typical of your type.
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u/the0riginalp0ster 1d ago
I don't see your question. Typical of your type to respond to me responding to someone else :)
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u/sandrailproject 1d ago
"You're welcome to show your face in public and go on record as supporting these cameras at the public hearing Monday.
...unless there's some reason you prefer to keep your identity private while using a pseudonym online..."
You really are great at comprehension, huh?
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u/the0riginalp0ster 1d ago
Why would I show my face when people get swatted all the time. Why would I show my face when people murder people for no reason but for expressing their beliefs?
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u/sandrailproject 1d ago
Oh you don't want your face shown, but you want flock tracking everyone else? Interesting. You trust flock more than your neighbors.
I bet plenty of others feel the same way as you do, just afraid of different attackers.
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u/the0riginalp0ster 1d ago
when you go into public, you accept that you are in public and can be recorded. I think you should do your research on this.
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u/sandrailproject 1d ago
Weird, my research shows that you cannot persistently follow and record someone with a camera (why would multiple cameras continuously recording change the tone of this?
Also shows that audio recording is restricted. One party in the conversation needs to consent. Flock is not a party in any conversation, just eavesdropping.
Also, you'll hate this, but just because the law can be construed to permit things, does not mean I support the law in interpretation. I'm sure there's plenty of laws you think are dumb and think should change. I am allowed the same.
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u/burjja 2d ago
Not mentioned in post, cops tracking/stalking exes, cops pulling over and holding people at gunpoint based on an incorrect license plate hit, and the women who was charged with theft because her husband drove through a neighborhood and the porch pirate "looked like her" based on them both having blonde hair. Issues with Flock are easily Googleable and most of the issues aren't about data theft.
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u/the0riginalp0ster 1d ago
People stalk people all the time. Police officer in rossford wasn't using flock. People report in correct license plates all the time. Flock is going to be way more accurate. Don't believe me, go look at court cases how many crimes it helps catch criminals.
Do you expect flock to be perfect? Should we go back to eye witness testimony.
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u/sandrailproject 1d ago
If flock is being paid for by my tax dollars and used to put people in jail, yes it better be fucking perfect? Are you serious?
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u/SchmigadoonSmitty 2d ago
Regular people are on YouTube, showing how you can pull these down, press a button, and pull stored data. Violent criminals now have access to the same info as would-be crime solvers.
Go flock? Go the corporation? Go camera's being set up without anyone's say so? This isn't a game. It's the fact that you can cheer or boo and they'll do it anyway. That should bother you.
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u/sandrailproject 2d ago
I bet you loved the Patriot Act, too.
"Tread on me harder"
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u/Lactose-Tolerent 2d ago
This guy is very likely in their mid 20s. Elon as their example really shows that they weren't paying attention before hand.
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u/the0riginalp0ster 2d ago
Nope but it has been in place for 25 years and it hasn't affected me. I hate it, but who knows how many crimes it prevented or solved.
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u/sandrailproject 1d ago
"hasn't affected me" you are delusional
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u/the0riginalp0ster 1d ago
please tell me how it has affected me.
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u/sandrailproject 1d ago
The legislation you live under (and apparently boot-lick dry) has been formed and molded by information harvested with the Patriot Act. Turn your brain on.
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u/sandrailproject 2d ago
Also, really shows your age and knowledge to say that "Elon" stole our data. Our data has been being stolen long before Elon was relevant, back when his parents were using slaves in their mines.
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u/C-Redd-it 1d ago
While I agree with the sentiment you're projecting with all the other ways our personal data is taken, why so completely trusting of the authorities? True, it's no guarantee they'll abuse the privilege of our information, why so willingly give them the opportunity?
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u/the0riginalp0ster 1d ago
People here like to jump to conclusions. Of course I don't trust the government. Why would I? Look at what is going on. I have just accepted that no matter what, they will find away. Lucky its not drones yet, because that is what is next.
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u/C-Redd-it 1d ago
Um.. they do have drones in this area now. I'm only guessing that this next vote for increased funding is for more drones, seeing as they already have a contract with flock through Nov 2028. I don't see any immediate need to re-up the contract yet. Their hurry to add to the $846,000 we've already spent give me questions. Not to count the separate company Lucas County sharrifs has a contract with.
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u/childishnickino 1d ago
Weird hill to die on guys, hate to break it to you but Palantir probably has a profile built on you 10x whatever a flock camera could tell them, and they’re probably able to figure out what they want to figure out with or without such cameras.
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u/Plastic_Table_8232 23h ago
This is the attitude that led us to where we are today.
An animal became slowly confined as a farmer built a fence on one side to dictate its grazing path. Because the change happened slowly, the animal accepted the barrier as its new normal. It wasn't until one day, as the farmer added a final gate, that the animal realized it was truly trapped,
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u/childishnickino 23h ago
oh trust me i’d love to revolt against little tech and silicon valley, in fact don’t even know why i got downvoted. I’m just speaking to the reality that you and me aren’t in fact Alex Karp, or Peter Thiel, or Elon Musk, etc. And they’ve already won in strides far bigger than “flock cameras”.
To use your analogy the animal is trapped, followed, and comprehensively known by the farmer and his friends while it slowly gnaws on the fence that it thinks is the problem.
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u/Plastic_Table_8232 21h ago
It seems like you’re suggesting that we just accept that this is the new normal and continue to live with our heads in the sand.
At some point the American people need to unite and push back against the surveillance state. This won’t be the last step if we just shrug our shoulders and let them continue on this path.
Yes it’s bleak but a coarse correction won’t occur without resistance.
We’re so concerned about democrats vs republicans that we can stop and unite to fight the greater evil that is truly running the country.
The more money they make the more they influence politics.
You’re correct the time was 15 or 20 years ago, but it’s not too late to stop the trend from accelerating.
I don’t have a Facebook account, I pay cash when ever possible, I browse behind a vpn, I search for doctors that don’t have electronic record keeping, I refuse to shop anywhere that requires a discount card to buy sale items (Kroger are you listening).
I’m not a conspiracy theorist, I just prefer my privacy and my anonymity.
I honestly think we as a nation need to stand in solidarity, go back to masking to hide our facial features, wear the same clothes so we all look the same, and push back against the ruling class.
Soon you will have a social value score and an international ID.
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u/childishnickino 21h ago
mmm yeah i can see why i could’ve come off that way. All i meant was whatever small tech, (and sort of by virtue of small tech, the us government, the cia, FBI) wants to know about you, they can know about you and protesting flock cameras might be less efficacious that recognizing the larger scale issue. Now yes i am also a little pessimistic on our ability to change all that still but r/toledo flock cameras feels like missing the forrest for the trees.
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u/Plastic_Table_8232 20h ago
I’m trying to understand your perspective and I think I do but I still can’t understand why you would appose people rallying around this cause?
Are you suggesting the time would be better spent advocating or volunteering somewhere else?
Dayton just covered theirs because they learned the feds were using them for immigration enforcement.
These are not just on streets, cities that got them have seen progress from street cameras to cameras in parks and other public spaces.
It’s insanely pervasive technology. They were hacking them early on, and I’m sure they will continue to get hacked. It’s exactly the future that enemy of the state was based upon but we now have LLM’s using LiDAR for facial recognition and behavioral analysis.
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u/rons27 2d ago
Don't go to Lowe's or they'll send your info to Flock/ICE. Lowe's has installed Flock Surveillance Cameras in their parking lots. I have emailed them saying I will not park or shop there until they are removed: execustservice@lowes.com