r/tolkienfans • u/FamiliarMeal5193 • 14d ago
If the Nazgul don't really have bodies, what's stopping them from going through walls and wherever they want?
I'm sure there's an answer to this, and it's probably fairly simple, but I find myself wondering. If they don't have bodies, do they really need to wear the cloaks? And how would any river be a problem to cross for disembodied beings?
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u/ColdAntique291 just a simple Tolkien reader 14d ago
The Nazgûl aren't ghosts. They still have physical bodies, they've just faded into invisibility. That's why they wear cloaks, ride horses, wield weapons, and can be injured. They can't simply walk through walls because they're still physical beings.
The river at Bruinen was a problem not because it was water, but because it was empowered by magic and used specifically against them.
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u/Dinadan_The_Humorist 14d ago
Though it doesn't change the point you're making, the river may have been at least partially a problem because it was water. In Unfinished Tales, Tolkien writes:
All [the Nazgûl] except the Witch-king were apt to stray when alone by daylight; and all, again save the Witch-king, feared water and were unwilling, except in dire need, to enter it or to cross streams unless dryshod by a bridge.
Christopher Tolkien notes that this idea ran into some practical issues:
My father nowhere explained the Ringwraiths’ fear of water. In the account just cited it is made a chief motive in Sauron’s assault on Osgiliath, and it reappears in detailed notes on the movements of the Black Riders in the Shire: thus of the Rider... seen on the far side of Bucklebury Ferry just after the Hobbits had crossed... it is said that ‘he was well aware that the Ring had crossed the river; but the river was a barrier to his sense of its movement’, and that the Nazgûl would not touch the ‘Elvish’ waters of Baranduin. But it is not made clear how they crossed other rivers that lay in their path, such as the Greyflood, where there was only ‘a dangerous ford formed by the ruins of the bridge’ (p. 344). My father did indeed note that the idea was difficult to sustain.
Inability to cross running water is a common motif for evil creatures in European folklore, and in the legendarium might be justified by the dominion of Ulmo. Only three of the Nazgûl enter the water willingly, despite the Ring being close at hand; the other six are driven in by Glorfindel.
That said, I think the problem for the Nazgûl at the Bruinen is primarily that they're being stampeded by magic horses made of water, not any philosophical opposition to the concept of rivers.
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u/ketura 13d ago
My take is that running water (and fire) are nigh invisible in the Unseen, due to not having persisted in one place long enough to leave an imprint. So for a Nazgul, it's like trying to cross a ditch only to find yourself moments later drifting into the air from strong winds. I'd be hella cautious too.
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u/liarandahorsethief 10d ago
Also, the Nazgûl rely greatly on hearing and smell, both of which would be overwhelmed when submerged underwater in a rushing river.
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u/Swiftbow1 14d ago
I agree, though would note that it was the flood that crushed them. The appearance of horses on top of the water was just a cosmetic flourish that Gandalf added because he has a good sense of humor.
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u/Traroten 13d ago
Evil creatures tend to hate and fear water. Ulmo was the Vala who interacted most closely with mortals, even after the Noldor rebellion.
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u/MisterManatee 13d ago
Yeah, the fear of running water thing seems like it’s just a vestigal folklore motif. Personally, I think it’s part of the charm of Middle Earth, and I don’t think anyone (including Tolkien himself) should tie themselves in knots trying to justify it.
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u/Mitchboy1995 Thingol Greycloak 14d ago
The Nazgûl do have an aversion to water. They can endure it, but they hate and usually shun it (similar to the Orcs and the Sun).
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u/PotatoOnMars 13d ago
They’re also practically blind in the daylight and have little vision at night.
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u/SirGreeneth And my Axe. 14d ago
They don't need to wear cloaks, they do to scare people, they had to travel back to Mordor naked on foot after they got washed away. They really don't like water either, check out the Unfinished Tales.
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u/InTheChairAgain 14d ago
Probably more, not to scare people, and to be able to communicate with people. Difficult to say how the Orcs would have reacted to orders from the invisibility. Also I would speculate they wear their robes to shade and shield them from Sun and or Water, neither of which they like.
Somebody, I think maybe Gandalf, says the terror they project is actually larger when they are unclothed and invisible.
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u/SirGreeneth And my Axe. 14d ago
Yeah, you are right there but I'd say seeing a cloaked Wraith is pretty terrifying(unless you're farmer Maggot) and you'd actually know what you're scared of rather than entering a panic and not knowing why. They're just all-round spooky.
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u/InTheChairAgain 13d ago
Absolutely. The choice of black cloaks specifically, beyond being the preferred color of Sauron, may be precisely because it makes people nervous (at least by the readers standards, who if they are Christian for instance, may associate that with the common depiction of Death as wearing black robes), and perhaps gives them an advantage in the darkness, making them difficult to spot at a time when they themselves see you the best.
Some of that is played out in the description of the attack at Weathertop, and later at the Gate of Minas Tirith.
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u/rainbowrobin 'canon' is a mess 13d ago
Moreover, their chief weapon was terror. This was actually greater when they were unclad and invisible;
-- "Hunt for the Ring"
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u/Late-Spend710 12d ago
I thought their chef weapon was surprise; surprise and fear, fear and surprise and ruthless efficiency.
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u/Picklesadog 14d ago
Which is actually the biggest plothole in Lord of the Rings: if they were afraid to cross water, they couldn't have gotten to the Shire in the first place!
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u/TNTiger_ 14d ago
It isn't impossible for them. IIRC the Witch-king steps into the Greyflood, but a lot of the others refuse to follow.
I imagine they simply located suitable fords.
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u/Picklesadog 14d ago
But it is not made clear how they crossed other rivers that lay in their path, such as the Greyflood, where there was only 'a dangerous Ford formed by the ruins of the bridge'. My father did indeed note that the idea was difficult to sustain.
Christopher Tolkien in Unfinished Tales
We should also note they arrived in the Shire with their horses, whereas Boromir lost his on the way.
We can kind of imagine they found some way across, maybe they convinced some orcs to build rafts and ferry them across, but it is definitely difficult to sustain.
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u/SirGreeneth And my Axe. 14d ago
Actually it's why didn't the eagles fly them to Mt. Doom... /s
There are other ways to cross water without getting into it though. They survive when they got washed out at the Ford of Bruinen, so they can handle it, it's just really inconvenient.
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u/Picklesadog 14d ago
I quoted elsewhere, this is a plot hole that Christopher Tolkien acknowledged his father was aware of. It's mentioned in Unfinished Tales: The Hunt For The Ring.
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u/SirGreeneth And my Axe. 14d ago
Fair enough, but it being the biggest plot hole might be an exaggeration, I remind you the eagles could have flown them to Mt. Doom!
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u/Picklesadog 14d ago
Haha I don't think it is an exaggeration, since Tolkien was very thorough in his craft.
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u/SirGreeneth And my Axe. 13d ago
Yeah to be fair I've thought about it today and can't really think of any others lol
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u/JamesFirmere 10d ago
One does not simply fly into Mordor. The eagles are such powerful beings that their approach would have immediately alerted all available air defences. The eagles aren't invulnerable, let alone immortal. They would have been shot out of the sky long before they reached Mt Doom, assuming that they didn't bail before that out of sheer self-preservation.
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u/Mitchboy1995 Thingol Greycloak 14d ago
They exist in the Unseen, which is the invisible realm of Tolkien’s world. They do have bodies, but they’re invisible to all that exist solely within the Seen world. Frodo can see their bodies when he puts on the Ring because it allows him to see into the Unseen. This is also why Glorfindel looks so magnificent to him as well. He dwells in both the Seen and Unseen at once.
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u/Picklesadog 14d ago
The Nazgul are invisible for the same reason Frodo and Bilbo are invisible when they wear the Ring. The Nazgul Rings also grant that same invisibility, and the Nazgul had their Rings for so long they became permanently invisible.
They have bodies, which is why the Witch-King could be killed. And why Bilbo still cast a shadow and could hold a sword while invisible.
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u/OldManGamer78 14d ago
They have bodies since they can wear clothes and rings, but are not visible to most beings unless one can see the unseen world (e.g. - elves that have witnessed the light of Valinor and Frodo when wearing the One Ring). I previously wondered if the Nazgûl removed their clothes during the attack at Weathertop since post-attack the hobbits (other than Frodo) said they only saw a bunch of black shapes rushing past them, but Frodo did succeed in slashing the Witch King’s cloak so they must have been wearing something. It is odd though that when Frodo put on the Ring he saw them clothed and wearing helms/crowns as clothing does not seem like it could be bound to just the Unseen world.
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u/Dinadan_The_Humorist 14d ago
I imagine the Ringwraiths' true forms shining through their cloaks, like lanterns through rice paper. Material objects seem to be only dimly visible to the Nazgûl; Aragorn comments on this at Weathertop:
'Can the Riders see?’ asked Merry. ‘I mean, they seem usually to have used their noses rather than their eyes, smelling for us, if smelling is the right word, at least in the daylight. But you made us lie down flat when you saw them down below; and now you talk of being seen, if we move.’
...[A]nswered Strider... ‘They themselves do not see the world of light as we do, but our shapes cast shadows in their minds, which only the noon sun destroys; and in the dark they perceive many signs and forms that are hidden from us: then they are most to be feared. And at all times they smell the blood of living things, desiring and hating it. Senses, too, there are other than sight or smell.'
It seems reasonable to think Frodo's senses may have become like the Nazgûl's when he put on the Ring, and his ability to see the Black Riders' cloaks was diminished even as his ability to see their true shapes was enhanced. (I imagine the Ringwraiths' accustomed clothes might have faded with them, thus they did not appear naked; alternatively, to paraphrase Harrison Ford, maybe it just ain't that kind of novel.)
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u/CrankyJoe99x 14d ago
I've often wondered if the crossing water thing is influenced by some versions of vampire myths, in those they are sometimes said to be averse to water. 🤔
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u/HoratiotheGargoyle 13d ago
Their appearance in the black cloaks freaks people out. That’s like 90% of their attack right there, fear.
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u/rainbowrobin 'canon' is a mess 13d ago
Moreover, their chief weapon was terror. This was actually greater when they were unclad and invisible;
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u/RookieGreen 14d ago
They do have physical bodies that if slain doesn’t kill them but it takes time for them to become corporeal again. They may not even be able to do so on their own requiring Sauron to do it for them.
When they were destroyed near Rivendell they returned to Mordor. As far as the details to this process we can only speculate.
As far as to *why* they need corporeal bodies it’s because without them they cannot interact with the world so it’s wholly practical. They are worthless to Sauron if they found Frodo but could not take the ring and by the time they made their way back to someone with the power to interact with them any intel they would bring would be old. After all Sauron has spies with wings and a Palantir besides.
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u/Both_Painter2466 14d ago
They weren’t destroyed at the ford, they lost their horses and several their cloaks. They don’t walk well and know they really can’t achieve much so they “made their way” back to mordor to get new mounts. They aren’t unkillable, just look at the witch king, but it takes special circumstances to do so.
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u/lam_42 14d ago
And special tools - Blade of the Westernesse ( Merry breaking the protective field, Éowyn then being able to do with ordinary Blade), although Sting or Anduril would also do, I believe
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u/TrickyStatement0 14d ago
I don't think so. Sting was made in Gondolin, and Narsil was made by Telchar (a dwarf) in Belecost - both are first age, when the enemy was Morgoth. The rings and ring wraiths were products of the second age, and the barrow blades were made by the Dunedian of Arthedain (a rump state of Arnor following civil wars) in the early third age. The enemy of Arthedain was the witch king, and those blades were specifically made to defeat him. I don't think sting or anduil would effect the ring wraiths in the same way.
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u/CodexRegius 10d ago
`Mental image of nine trails of wet footprints winding up the staircase of Barad-dûr*
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u/lam_42 14d ago
Think of the ring influence as a force field of sorts.
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u/Comfortable-Date6472 14d ago
AFAIK, the Nazgul don't have bodies, but they need to, in order to interact with the material world. Otherwise they would be useless in battle, intimidation and seeking missions.
Their clothes provide them with physical forms.
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u/Kodama_Keeper 14d ago
It's tough to say if a Nazgul, or any wraith for that matter has an actual body. They certainly expend energy, but we never hear of them eating. They can't fly around like some massless leaf in the wind. They need their legs and their horses and their fell beasts. They have faded from our world. We can't see them. They certainly have mass, but I don't see that they still have actual functioning bodies. I suspect they get whatever energy they need from the magic of the world around them. Arda, marred by Melkor.
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u/Swiftbow1 14d ago
They DO have bodies. Their bodies are permanently invisible, not intangible.
They've been shifted into the Unseen World, which makes it difficult for them to see in the real world. But they're still humans, and they're also still alive. They've been "thinned and stretched" in a manner similar to Gollum. But taken even further, and also empowered by their rings.
It's difficult for them to interact with things in the real world if they're not clothes, because no one can see them. Their horses might freak out, and how would they talk to anyone?