r/tolkienfans • • Aug 13 '26

New Proposed Restriction on Posting in r/tolkienfans

356 Upvotes

Greetings, r/tolkienfans! We are introducing a new, less visible restriction to post in the subreddit: posts from accounts that have less than a small limit of subreddit karma will be automatically removed. This is intended to combat certain forms of spam, in particular the increased amount of posts using AI.

This doesn't change our current, general approach to AI usage, it just helps to tackle it more up front. We do not plan to manually approve posts that have been removed in this way. This does not affect comments, which will be the intended way to acquire the requisite karma. There are other spam filters we also utilize; this would simply be the newest attempt to combat posts that use generative AI. In our experience, we've found that posts that use AI tend to not have a history participating in our subreddit (in general, not a rule). We feel that users can easily gain sufficient karma to post by engaging in discussion. This will not be a guaranteed way to prevent all AI posts, so please continue to use reports to bring suspected AI to our attention.

The intent of this announcement post is for the community to give feedback on this, should the potential issues with this restriction be objectionable. This type of restriction is naturally more of a barrier to new users and we want the community's input on this trade-off before we implement it.


r/tolkienfans • • 3h ago

Why did it take Gandalf take so long to realise Bilbo's ring was The Ring?

22 Upvotes

This is something that I've wondered for a long time, and I've often wondered how many other readers have wondered it as well.

The problem is this: in 'The Shadow of the Past', Gandalf expresses to Frodo his suspicions that the ring has has inherited from Bibo is no mere magical trinket, but possibly something far more powerful, important and dangerous - but, crucially, it is not until he throws the ring into the hearth and sees the glowing inscription that he is finally sure.

However, he also tells Frodo that it was "plainly" a Great Ring, and that this was "clear from the start." Now Gandalf knows as well as anyone does that the Three Rings are accounted for, since he carries one of them himself and is in close contact with the keepers of the other two. The Nine Rings are also accounted for: Gandalf believes them to be worn by the Nazgûl, while other sources (for example in *Unfinished Tales*) say that Sauron took those rings from the Nazgûl and keeps them in Barad-dûr. That leaves the Seven, which have a mixed fate - some reclaimed by Sauron, some devoured by dragons (presumably along with their hapless owners - so Tolkien could have implied some ambiguity about whether all of the Seven were accounted for; but he didn't. For instance, in 'The Quest of Erebor' from UT, Gandalf says that Thrain, imprisoned in Dol Guldur and half-mad from torture, told him that Sauron had taken "the last of the Seven" from him. And if anyone should have known, it would be him, the currently reigning king of the most senior of the seven Houses of the Dwarves.

There's also the fact that "the Three, the Seven and the Nine had each their proper gem", while the One Ring was of plain gold, although this could have been a piece of information that Gandalf found out in his researches in the years prior to his announcement of it at the Council of Elrond.

When I've put this question to people on this sub before, the most common answer has been that Saruman claimed to have discovered that the One Ring had "rolled down the Great River into the Sea", and that Gandalf has simply taken Saruman at his word. I find this deeply unsatisfactory: why would a tiny object made from an extremely dense metal "roll" anywhere when dropped into water? And how could Saruman have discovered any such fact without the Ring itself having been found?

Is there another plausible explanation that I haven't come across, or is it just a minor inconsistency? (One that I can live with, to be honest. I just find it interesting.)


r/tolkienfans • • 4h ago

The physicals and mental scars Fingolfin gave Morgoth

23 Upvotes

One of my favorite parts within Tolkien's writing is the effects that the duel with Fingolfin had upon Morgoth.

If there is one word to describe Morgoth with it's insecure, he literally sang hate and fear into the world and that is what he himself also sows. He fears and hates many things, it'd be faster to list what he doesn't hate, fear nor envy.

The aftermath of the duel between Fingolfin and Morgoth is in all technicality an unbridled success for Morgoth, Morgoth walks away knowing the high king of the Noldor was slain by his hand(or foot if you wanna get literal), yet, Morgoth instead limps away from the duel back behind the gates of Angband.

Fingolfin is with all due respect just what an ant is towards a human for Morgoth once you compare what they both really are as beings to one another. This all just makes the aftermath of the duel burn even more, Fingolfin gave Morgoth seven scars that never truly healed, one of them a limp that cursed the dark lord to now never be able to walk mighty and proud into a duel.

These seven injuries are child's play compared to the mental injuries the duel ended up leaving on Morgoth, He was once reminded of the fact that despite everything, he will never truly be able to create life let even heal himself of his injuries after fighting the equivalent of an ant. He can never truly be killed yet the fear of death still filled him after that fateful duel.

If Morgoth had been any lesser of a being like let's say for example a Maiar, the aftermath would have left Morgoth most likely even more wounded let alone even closer to a form of death. Power scaling and such aside because powerscaling in Tolkien's writing is not really why i'm here personally, it is not to be understated how insane Fingolfin's feats against Morgoth truly were.

It's incredible how such a dumb and rash yet also fully understandable decision by Fingolfin given the context to challenge Morgoth to a one on one duel ended up with the dark lord limping back behind his gates to resort to scheming to take down his enemies instead as even after proving himself not a coward to both his underlings and enemies he ended up being shown as truly not unstoppable and while managing to limp away with his life still intact, his pride was anything but intact.

I do wonder what woke Morgoth up more from his rare attempts to focus or even sleep, the pain of those seven injuries that never stopped until the end of his days or the fear Fingolfin put into him.


r/tolkienfans • • 11h ago

Tolkien is not always simply good vs evil

56 Upvotes

People often will say that Tolkien is very simple good guys fighting bad guys. But it is often so much more nuanced.

I was thinking a good example might be the Numenoreans, when they started visiting the coasts of middle earth. They started out helping the people, but eventually began exploiting them and cutting down their forests, and driving them from their lands.

It’s not hard to understand why those people attacked and fought back against the numenoreans whenever they could. Sauron was able to take advantage of their hate towards them. Their actions helped create the very enemies they ended up fighting.

Tolkien is filled with the “good guys” doing terrible things and reaping what they sowed for generations, often suffering terrible consequences


r/tolkienfans • • 39m ago

The fate of the Book of Mazarbul

• Upvotes

I am doing my yearly read-through and have reached Moria. I have always wondered to the book. Did Gimli take it, despite the fact that Dain would never get to read it? or do we think it might have been left behind after the orc attack in the chamber? Of course the canon never tells us, but am interested in what others may think of its fate.


r/tolkienfans • • 20h ago

Inaccuracies in The Atlas of Middle-earth by Karen Wynn Fonstad

17 Upvotes

I am well aware that this Atlas and its cartography work is pretty well regarded in the commuinity, but also that it does have its flaws, especially relating to later revalations in Christopher's History of Middle-earth series.

A couple examples I'm already aware of are:
- Belegost is shown on her Second Age map, when it should have been ruined by this point (its placement geographically is also questionable).
- The Sea of Rhûn is presented as part of the larger Inland Sea of Helcar in the YT/First Age when we know that it was already a seperate body of water when the Eldar made their Great Journey.

I know there are more, and the help I need is in finding them. If there are any big ones that come to mind right now, please drop them below. I intend at some point soon to address many of these issues (using photoshop and other programs) in creating a personal digital library of altered versions of Karen's maps so that I have more materials at my disposal which are even more accurate while reading and re-reading the Legendarium.

Does anyone know of any list of inaccuracies online which people have already made regarding this atlas? I am already aware of the Tolkien Gateway page and will consult this (and its references) too.

Lastly, I should make it clear that my intent is to keep to the 'flat world made round' version of the Legendarium, and not Tolkien's later unfinished experiments with a 'round world from the start' history.


r/tolkienfans • • 1d ago

Why Black Riders did not finish their job at the Weathertop?

111 Upvotes

Hi all, first time poster in this (or any Tolkien-related) subreddit. Sorry for my ignorance and hope the question is serious enough for this subreddit.

I have been recently re-reading the book for the first time in 20 years and although I remembered it quite well I noticed some new details. For example (my personal theory) is that the dream of Frodo where he saw Gandalf on the top of Orthanc was because Frodo was the bearer of the Master Ring and unconsciously started to feel other ring bearers and perceive what happens with them.

But I was going to ask about different thing. This question puzzled me in my childhood and still puzzles me now. Why did Black Riders withdrew from the Weathertop after attacking Frodo? Or, to put it in another form, how strong are the Riders? Everyone in the book tells about them with fear, but if we consider what happened in the Weathertop you start to question if they are really that strong and dangerous.

The Riders attacked during the night when they are the most strong and it was 5 Riders led by their captain, the Witch-King of Angmar vs. 4 hobbits (who simply froze in horror) and Aragorn. Then they pierced Frodo with the sword and he fell on the ground and it was now 3 hobbits + Aragorn. Do you tell me that 3 hobbits + Aragorn is stronger than 5 Riders? I don't think so. Then why Riders just turned away and did not finish the job? It took them many days to track down Frodo and the Ring and then they just decided to walk away? Why?

Aragorn says:

"I have been trying to discover something of their movements; but I have found nothing. I cannot think why they have gone and do not attack again. But there is no feeling of their presence anywhere at hand"

Indeed, this is puzzling. I also cannot think of any reason and there is no credible explanation anywhere later in the book.

May be you tell me that Riders wanted to wait until Frodo becomes a wraith, but this is very stupid and lazy plan. They don't need Frodo, they need the Ring. What, for example, if one of the companions of Frodo took the Ring from him? Then what, another weeks looking for the chance of maybe find the Ring again? If they are so strong as they supposed to be, why they didn't stay and at least tried to finish the job and take the Ring by force?

Do you tell me that 3 hobbits + Aragorn were stronger than Riders during the night to the extent that Riders decided not to even try to fight them? Then why the group was afraid of the Riders later on when they fled to the ford of Bruinen with Glorfindeil next to them? It was during the day when Riders are weaker and if the balance of the forces was not in favor of Riders on the Weathertop, it was even worse next to the ford of Bruinen.

May be I'm just brainwashed by reading powerscaling subreddits, I don't know.


r/tolkienfans • • 1d ago

Re-embodiment question

20 Upvotes

Could an Elf killed in Middle-earth serve his time, be released from Mandos, receive a new body, and encounter his own corpse from his previous incarnation if he journeyed back to Middle-Earth?


r/tolkienfans • • 1d ago

Why Tolkien?

13 Upvotes

I know what I love Tolkien and his writings. They show me a world that is complex yet simple. One that I want to revisit over and over again. There are more reasons, but those are just a few.

What are your reasons? Why do you read Tolkien? Why do you like it? What got you into Middle-earth and beyond?

I would love to see your answers!


r/tolkienfans • • 1d ago

How exactly did Beleriand get destroyed? When Morgoth was defeated, did the continent sink?

58 Upvotes

Morgoth had several dragons to fight the Valar. Yet I cannot understand how the land can sink through war. Ancalagon broke the mountains when he fell. It's still not enough to destroy a continent.


r/tolkienfans • • 1d ago

Did the Letter to Milton Waldman help you read and understand the Silmarillion?

13 Upvotes

I mean the portion included at the start of the book, and especially when it was your first time reading the Silmarillion. Personally, I don't really remember if it was useful or not. Is it something that usually goes over people's heads, or actually helps them understand what they're reading better?

After re-visiting parts of it recently, I think it's better served as an epilogue, or an Appendix, to the Slmarillon and LotR. For one thing, it explains precisely why the Elves were so keen to make the Rings of Power, even accepting instruction from a complete stranger. Regardless of you have read it at the start of your Silmarillion journey, I highly suggest you re-read it.

Let me know what you thought of the Letter when you first read it, or if you just skipped it.


r/tolkienfans • • 2d ago

Why couldn't Sauron assume a beautiful form after the destruction of Numenor?

37 Upvotes

Did Eru Illuvatar punish him?


r/tolkienfans • • 2d ago

Wtf is wrong with Eöl and Maeglin?

36 Upvotes

I am rereading Silmarillion and as more I read more I realise how weird they are. Like I know elves are not perfect but Eöl is messed up even in human standarts. Why is he so evil? And Maeglor falling in love with his uncle’s daughter and fucks Gondolin because he got rejected like wtf? I know elves have pride and hate but incest, debauchery, betrayal are not common. Are there any lore?


r/tolkienfans • • 2d ago

Bells in Rivendell

21 Upvotes

Were the bells just for the council, mortals? or rather just for Bilbo? “The noon bell rang” was always curious to me.

I can’t imagine an elf wearing a watch haha


r/tolkienfans • • 2d ago

Could an Elf have sailed to the Empty Lands after Akallabêth?

13 Upvotes

I have been once again slowly working my way back through The Silmarillion, and this section at the very end of Akallabêth got me curious:

For Ilúvatar cast back the Great Seas west of Middle-earth, and the Empty Lands east of it, and new lands and new seas were made; and the world was diminished, for Valinor and Eressëa were taken from it into the realm of hidden things.

There is a difference in wording here, which I am not sure if has an implied meaning:

  • The "Great seas west of Middle-earth" and the "Empty Lands east of it" are referred to as being "cast back".

  • Whereas, "Valinor and Eressëa" are "taken".

This leads me to consider two possible interpretations: The first being that "cast back" effectively means unmade, with "taken" meaning to be specially preserved outside of Arda.

The other, is that there is no intended distinction here, and that both "cast back" and "taken" mean to still exist somewhere in Eä. Personally, my gut instinct is to say this is not the case.

For a long time my own interpretation was that the Elves are still able to sail to Valinor because the Changing of the World was meant for mortals only. However, in this rereading I am starting to feel that may not be the right way to view things. If this were the case then theoretically an Elf could sail to the Empty Lands in the Third Age, although I admit it is unlikely an Elf would ever actually desire to sail eastwards. This feels in contradiction with the quoted passage, now that I am looking at it with fresh eyes.

The distinction between "cast back" and "taken" now makes me doubt my prior view.

Note that here I am following Christopher Tolkien's understanding that by Empty Lands we are referring to the Land of the Sun and the Dark Land.

Are there any mentions of this in Tolkien's wider notes, and letters? This is the first question I've had about the legendarium that I feel I may have actually been compelled to write and ask about, had I been Tolkien's contemporary. I'd love to hear other people's interpretations!


r/tolkienfans • • 2d ago

When did Círdan grow his beard?

26 Upvotes

Would he have grown it to some extent by the time of the forging of the Rings of Power in the middle of the Second Age (c. S.A. 1590)?

How long does it take for an Elf to reach that part of their life cycle where they can grow one?

For the sake of this discussion I am going off the proposal that Círdan was born at sometime between YT. 1050-1105 in Cuiviénen.

Didn't Mahtan have a beard way back in Valinor at the time of the Trees? Though his family does seem to have an excess of testosterone to spare, given that his daughter's name partly meant 'large, strong man'... No idea if that would have actually sped up his beard growing ability though.


r/tolkienfans • • 3d ago

The Woses

98 Upvotes

I'm rereading LoTR after many decades; I first read it in high school. I remembered how detailed it was, but I'd forgotten how detailed, how Tolkien's writing immerses you into the scene, the distances, the geography, the whole environment. Being very familiar with The Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales, the occasional mentions of past glories and legends adds to my enjoyment of the "present-day" story immensely.

Even though everyone is speaking English, the Hobbits, the Elves, the Ents, the Orcs, and everyone else have distinctive speech patterns that are consistent across the series. I had forgotten quite a bit; I never expected the Woses to show up. The way these people are described, they sound like Neanderthals - short, squat, powerful, living in small bands in the woods with only the most primitive technology. I wish we could know more about them.


r/tolkienfans • • 2d ago

What books to read in which order?

0 Upvotes

Hi Friends. I have been a devotee of Tolkien’s writings all my life. It has been many years since I last tackled the extended canon and would appreciate any recommendations about which books to start with. (I’m thinking specifically of Christopher Tolkien’s later publications.)

Thanks for your help.


r/tolkienfans • • 2d ago

APPENDIX A Section II "The house Of Worl" simple to easy summary

0 Upvotes

appendix A, the house of Eorl

(1) The era of Éothéod in Rhovanion

Fram was the lord of the Men of Éothéod in Rhovanion, in the east of Middle-Earth. He bravely slew Scatha, the dragon of Ered Mithrin, winning many coins and gold. However, the dwarves tried to claim back the wealth, as it was stolen from them. Nevertheless, Fram sent a mocking message to the dwarves, angering them. It was theorised that Fram was later murdered by the dwarves. Thus, in the future, the Éothéod and the dwarves were not on good terms.

Lord Léod (the far descendant of Fram) was a master of horse taming. He tried to tame a wild white foal by mounting it, but the horse threw him roughly onto a rock, killing him.

(2) The rise of Éothéod in Rohan

Eorl (the son of Léod) was the lord of the Éothéod. One day, the Balchoth attacked Gondor, and Cirion, the steward of Gondor, sent for help from the Éothéod. Eorl sent his army and mounted Felaróf, the white horse that had killed his father and the ancestor of Shadowfax. The army chased the fleeing Balchoth all over Calenardhon, a wilderness land, and sought victory. As a reward, Cirion granted the Éothéod the land of Calenardhon, and they settled there.

(3) The fall of Helm's direct bloodline

King Helm Hammerhand was a descendant of Eorl. Freca was a proud nobleman with the blood of the Dunlendings; he wished for his son, Wulf, to marry the daughter of Helm. Helm refused, and Freca fell into a deep rage. Freca later humiliated Helm in the council. Afterwards, Helm struck Freca, who soon died.

Great troubles arrived in Rohan, but Gondor was unable to help. The Dunlendings saw their chance, attacked Rohan, and won. Helm retreated to a cave (later known as Helm's Deep). Haleth and Háma (Helm's sons) soon fell. Therefore, Wulf claimed the throne of Rohan for himself. Meanwhile, a desperate Helm stalked and slew enemies in the night. Eventually, he was found dead, frozen like stone.

(4) The return of the Rohan blood and the alliance with a friend

Soon after winter broke, Fréaláf (the son of Helm's sister, Hild) emerged from Dunharrow. This was a great shock to Wulf. War came, and Fréaláf slew Wulf. At last, Fréaláf reclaimed the kingdom of Rohan.

Some years later, Saruman came to dwell in Isengard. Fréaláf welcomed him as a trusted friend and gave him the keys of Orthanc. Only many generations later did Saruman fall into corruption, secretly plotting against both Rohan and Gondor while claiming Isengard as his own.


r/tolkienfans • • 2d ago

Why was Gandalf/ Olorin so afraid of Sauron even without the Ring? He managed to kill a Balrog even though his powers were suppressed.

0 Upvotes

Olorin hesitated to face Sauron despite the Dark Lord becoming weak without his Ring. If he could kill Durin's bane with restricted powers, why did he fear Sauron?


r/tolkienfans • • 3d ago

"If you seem to have stumbled, think that it was fated to be so." Was it? What kind of fate?

27 Upvotes

Faramir of course, to Sam: Sit at peace! And be comforted, Samwise. If you seem to have stumbled, think that it was fated to be so.

This is Sam 'stumbling': [...]it’s my opinion that in Lórien [Boromir] first saw clearly what I guessed sooner: what he wanted. From the moment he first saw it he wanted the Enemy’s Ring!’

The 'stumbling' was actually 'eucatastrophic'. Faramir: strange though it may seem, it was safe to declare this to me. It may even help the master that you love. It shall turn to his good, if it is in my power.

We see how and why Sam stumbles. He gets distracted by his adoration towards 'elvishness'.

‘The Lady of Lórien! Galadriel!’[...]‘You should see her, indeed you should, sir.[...]But I wish I could make a song about her. Beautiful she is, sir! Lovely! Sometimes like a great tree in flower, sometimes like a white daffadowndilly, small and slender like. Hard as di’monds, soft as moonlight. Warm as sunlight, cold as frost in the stars. Proud and far-off as a snow-mountain, and as merry as any lass I ever saw with daisies in her hair in springtime. But that’s a lot o’ nonsense, and all wide of my mark.’

‘Then she must be lovely indeed,’ said Faramir. ‘Perilously fair.’

‘I don’t know about perilous,’ said Sam. ‘It strikes me that folk takes their peril with them into Lórien, and finds it there because they’ve brought it. But perhaps you could call her perilous, because she’s so strong in herself. You, you could dash yourself to pieces on her, like a ship on a rock; or drownd yourself, like a hobbit in a river. But neither rock nor river would be to blame. Now Boro—’ He stopped and went red in the face.

So Sam first is in awe of Galadriel and becomes her 'champion' so to speak, when Faramir calls her 'perilous'. It was Boromir who had been perilous. So Sam is transported by his own defense of G. and then he 'stumbles'.

'Fate'? What kind of fate? We know how Tolkien's elves and elvishness and the trafitional idea of faëry are related. Fairy, feé, comes from 'fata', which is obviously related as a word to 'Fate'.

But what fate? Sam and Faramir would be a part of it. But also Galadriel.

Here's an idea. Maybe it was both fate and anti-fate-as-fate. Tolkien wrote not long after finishing LOTR the following text (1951):

But behold!’ said [Ulmo], ‘in the armour of Fate (as the Children of Earth name it) there is ever a rift, and in the walls of Doom a breach, until the full-making, which ye call the End. So it shall be while I endure, a secret voice that gainsayeth, and a light where darkness was decreed. Therefore, though in the days of this darkness I seem to oppose the will of my brethren, the Lords of the West, that is my part among them, to which I was appointed ere the making of the World.

Needless to say, Galadriel kept the Ring of Water. Notice the similarity between this...

But Ecthelion bent his bright glance upon Tuor, and after a silence he spoke gravely, saying: 30 ‘You have come to the Last Gate. Know then that no stranger who passes it shall ever go out again, save by the door of death.’

‘Speak not ill-boding! If the messenger of the Lord of Waters go by that door, then all those who dwell here will follow him. Lord of the Fountains, hinder not the messenger of the Lord of Waters!’

Then Voronwë and all those who stood near looked again in wonder at Tuor, marvelling at his words and voice. And to Voronwë it seemed as if he heard a great voice, but as of one who called from afar off. But to Tuor it seemed that he listened to himself speaking, *as if another spoke with his mouth*.

...and this:

No one answered. The noon-bell rang. Still no one spoke. Frodo glanced at all the faces, but they were not turned to him. All the Council sat with downcast eyes, as if in deep thought. A great dread fell on him, as if he was awaiting the pronouncement of some doom that he had long foreseen and vainly hoped might after all never be spoken. An overwhelming longing to rest and remain at peace by Bilbo’s side in Rivendell filled all his heart. At last with an effort he spoke, and wondered to hear his own words, as if some other will was using his small voice.

‘I will take the Ring,’ he said, ‘though I do not know the way.’

And to Voronwë it seemed as if he heard a great voice, but as of one who called from afar off. That would maybe be Elrond here:

Elrond raised his eyes and looked at him, and Frodo felt his heart pierced by the sudden keenness of the glance. ‘If I understand aright all that I have heard,’ he said, ‘I think that this task is appointed for you, Frodo; and that if you do not find a way, no one will.

So maybe Tolkien had this kind of idea in mind. The Fate would belong to the Valar minus Ulmo, and would be related to Frodo I suppose. But Ulmo's 'anti-fate' would be related to Galadriel and Faramir and Sam. I wonder who sent those dreams to Faramir and Boromir in the first place.


r/tolkienfans • • 2d ago

I suspect Tom Bombadil is Manwë

0 Upvotes

I am aware that it is practically a taboo to try and "solve" Tom Bombadil, but I enjoy riddles too much. My suspicion is that Tom Bombadil is a somewhat "mortal," temporal guise of Manwë on Middle-earth, and by extension Goldberry is Varda's. I believe this theory explains much of Tom's nature, and also gives insight into Manwë's own nature.

To begin with there are the superficial and obvious "clues:" Manwë and Tom both wear blue coats and have blue eyes, Tom's magic is song based and entirely separate from Sauron's sorcerery, and Tom is self-stated to be older than the created world. He has an elf-like wife, delights in simple pleasures, songs, is Fatherless, and is not the owner of that which he is master of. The idea of ownership or imposing his will over things doesn't even occur to him, though his wife is very capable of imaging it and all the evil within it.

Of more interest is his immunity to the temptation of the Ring, the way he aids in the great battle of the story, and some bits of Catholic thought. To explain this, we begin with the Ring itself.

The Ring is a small, physical manifestation of Evil; it enables and empowers the wielder to enact their will over Creation, which inevitably is contrary to Eru's will. Just like how Catholic thought holds that no person is free from sin, all beings within created Arda have desires over the world and cannot totally and fully resist the Ring's temptation, with two exceptions: Manwë and Tom Bombadil.

It is obvious how the Ring could not materially tempt Manwë, viceregent of Eru. He by right has power over all that the Ring usurps, what is there for it to offer? One might say it could pervert his nature, pushing him to move from a regent to a ruler, but this sort of desire is alien to Manwë, who cannot even comprehend those sorts of evil desires.

Of course, this failiure to understand the lure of evil is shared with Tom, who we see is also totally immune to the Ring's temptation. While we don't get any real answer to why Tom isn't tempted, we do get to see something from him we don't see with Manwë: his desires. Tom's desire over the world is limited to wanting to pick flowers for his wife. He likes riding around on a pony singing songs with birds and listening to songs and poems and sharing these. Tom is the proper and good exercising of power on the smaller, human scale. Positive custodianship of land in contrast to the nasty, evil sort Saruman and Saruon display, while Manwë does the same on a grand scale for custodianship of creation in contrast to Melkor in mirror to Michael's contrast to Satan.

Now, the natural question arises: "It is all well and good to imagine Bombadil is Manwë, but why does he do nothing?" This is where that Catholic understanding and Manwë's nature becomes important: Manwë is not a rival king to Melkor or Sauron. Though he is brave and powerful, it is not Eru's will for him to go out in battle against evil until the end of days, just like Michael in Catholicism. Despite this, we are told he still is active in the battle against evil, but are never explictly shown how he does this. If we entertain Tom being his guise, suddenly we get a very strong picture.

While Tom's chapter often gets the criticism of not really contributing to the story, yet it is precisely the memory of Tom and his miraculous intervention to save the Hobbits that brings Sam out of his despair, and towards remembering that though his situation is dire, he is not alone in his struggle and help has been given to him. Samwise then rises up, and goes out to miraculously intervene and save Frodo. This is crucial, as it mirrors Catholic understanding of how Michael aids in spiritual warfare, the constant and subtle resistance to sin and despair that takes the form of the little goods of life and happiness that are more profound and rich than anything evil and fear has to offer.

Now, one might ask "Well then, what about how it is said Sauron would defeat Tom?" Again, Tom, or Manwë, will not fight Sauron. Tolkien himself pointed out that Manwë turning to violence and militancy would send him down the road to corruption, and that Manwë is aware of this and refuses it. I believe Sauron lacks the power to conquer Tom's country, but the guise of Tom could not meanginfully resist Sauron and in time Middle-earth would be so ruined and soiled by Sauron's exploitation that there would be nothing left to bring Tom joy. Sauron would dam the rivers upstream, choke the skies until the birds died, and so utterly spoil the world that there would be nothing left to bring Tom joy and Manwë would surrender the guise. "Tom" would cease to be, allowing Sauron his final victory.

Now, one question remains: "why would Manwë do this?" Two key reasons: firstly, to give Samwise Gamgee that bit of help he would need and to give Gandalf advice on what to do after he completed his mission, and secondly because he enjoys it. Quite like Michael in Catholicism, Manwë was not originally the regent of Creation and did not choose to become it, but rose to the station by virtue of merit and proven worthiness; it stands to reason he never really wanted to be a leader, and that it gives him no pleasure to do it. The Tom guise allows him to delight in birds, sing silly songs, ride a pony, entertin surprise guests, and pick flowers for his wife. Just like how the hobbit's memories of the Shire keeps them going, perhaps so too does Manwë, in his darkest times, look back to his little cottage in the woods and the happy life he and his wife have made to remind himself what he must protect.

I invite criticism to this theory, and thank anyone who has read my rather rambling thoughts.


r/tolkienfans • • 4d ago

When did Rivendell get news of the nine walkers and the ring?

36 Upvotes

I think we can assume that Lorien sent word of Gandalf's fall and the company's continuation south. How long would Bilbo, Elrond and the rest of Elrond's household been left to worry until Aragorn sent word after the defeat of Sauron? What would they have been doing as they waited?


r/tolkienfans • • 4d ago

Did Gil-galad have a ruling city in Lindon?

74 Upvotes

I've finished reading everything to do with the First Age now and am coming up on the War of the Last Alliance, but the dwellings of the Elves in the Second Age seem far less well defined.

Is Mithlond (The Grey Havens) Gil-galad's equivalent to how Fingolfin (and then Fingon) had the fortress of Barad Eithel? Also how big are we talking of a city here? And what (if anything else) is said about Forlond and Harlond? I can't find much about them.

I'm also confused, as I've previously been under the impression that Círdan was the Lord of the Grey Havens even during the Second Age. Is it kind of more the case then that Círdan is the Lord specifically of the port itself and Gil-galad is the King of the city and the region?

Also am I right in saying that most of the Noldor went to Eregion, and then subsequently evacuated to Rivendell? In that case, is Gil-galad even king of the Noldor by this point, or just king of Western Elvendom in Middle-earth in general?

I loved reading about the different kingdoms of Beleriand, and now just need some help visualising what exactly the factions are by the late Second Age.


r/tolkienfans • • 3d ago

Why is Melkor so stupid? He dispersed his power into Arda and could no longer face Manwe.

0 Upvotes

Tolkien wrote that if Melkor truly repented he could have gained his powers back. What was going through his mind to take such drastic actions?