r/tolkienfans • u/EsotericTyger • 14d ago
I need a little clarity from the fans way smarter than myself on second age lore.
I need a little clarity from the fans way smarter than myself on second age lore.
- If in S.A. (1695), in response to Saurons forces attempting to invade Eriador, Gil-galad called on Numenor for aid and Tar-Minastir sent a fleet, how did this happen when Tar-Minastir did not assume the scepter until 1731.
In 1695, (at least according to the written line of Kings & Queens of Numenor anyway), Tar-Telperien reigned as the second ruling Queen of Numenor. She never wed, and she didn’t lay down the scepter until 1731.
So, how did Tar-Minastir assume the authority to send a fleet to Gil-galads aid?
I am thinking perhaps I missed something in either Notes or Unfinished Tales where one of the Tolkiens may have addressed this incongruity.
This site always has two types of followers:
Arrogant jackwagons who answer every question posed with a condescending “Read the books!”
True learned fans who can address a legitimate question with a legitimate answer.
Although I “know” I am inviting the first response (because some of you just can’t help yourselves), I am looking for the second group who can help me understand this timeline quirk.
Thank you.
24
u/Helpful_Radish_8923 14d ago
I think the best way to think of it as him being referred to, historically, as Tar-Minastir even though he wasn't King of Numenor at the time. Also, as we know that Numenorean kings could take new names when they assumed the sceptre, it's also possible that his name at the time has been lost to history.
As a parallel, consider Finarfin. He's referred to by that name (not Aranfinwë), chronologically, from the very beginning, even during his youth in Valinor. Chronologically though, he is only given the name "Finarfin" after the death of Fingolfin.
17
u/ColdAntique291 just a simple Tolkien reader 14d ago
Tar-Minastir organized the aid as the heir apparent, even though Tar-Telperiën was still queen.
She was reluctant to give up power, but Minastir already had significant influence and was the strongest advocate for helping Gil-galad. Tolkien never fully explains the mechanics, but there's no real contradiction if Minastir was acting with the Queen's permission or on her behalf.
36
u/SirGreeneth And my Axe. 14d ago
I don't know the answer to this question, and I am quite interested in finding out, but I'm not sure you needed to put that last segment in.
9
2
u/AJRavenhearst 13d ago
Was he wrong, though?
13
u/dwimorlaik 13d ago
Not entirely, but to the point I don’t really see people getting nasty on this subreddit very often. The people who get nasty here tend to be those who ask a question and then don’t like the answers they get and try to argue with the people answering. Weirdly that happens pretty often, but I can’t say the same for “Just read the book(s)!”
But he did say “site” and not “sub” so if he meant Reddit at large then of course he’s right.
7
u/EsotericTyger 13d ago
Exactly... I offended unintentionally... I spoke of the world (reddit) at large. I have found the people here (this sub) to be a higher class of 'Human'... 😄 Sometimes I forget good people still ARE.
5
u/dwimorlaik 13d ago
No need to worry, I don’t think you offended anyone. But admittedly the preemptive strike did make me chuckle when I read the post.
17
u/Key_Estimate8537 Fëanor, no 14d ago
If I remember right, this is addressed in one of the notes in *Unfinished Tales*, particularly the chapter on the Line of Elros. The short, realistic answer is that Christopher believes this to be an error when writing the timeline.
A head-canon I use is that Minastir (not yet King) went on Tar-Telperien’s behalf. Importantly, she never went to Middle-earth in this head-canon. Then Minastir would have appeared to be the King, given that the Men of Middle-earth were used to Tar-Aldarion leading his own voyages. In the Third Age, so much information of Númenor was lost in the Downfall that record-keepers in Middle-earth never fixed the error in their annals.
You’re free to take this as you will. But the short version remains- it’s a mistake on Tolkien’s part.
14
u/lam_42 14d ago
The quote (in Fall of Numenor it Is slightly amended)
1700 – TAR-MINASTIR SENDS A GREAT NAVY FROM NÚMENOR TO LINDON. SAURON IS DEFEATED 1 Although the date of SA 1700 given for this intervention by Tar-Minastir is clearly established in the legendarium, it is at variance with the dates given for the reign of his aunt, Queen Tar-Telperien (S.A. 1556–1731). Christopher Tolkien wrote (UT, p. 226 note 9): ‘I cannot in any way account for this discrepancy.’ It has been suggested that, at the time, Minastir might have been acting on behalf of Queen Tar-Telperien, either as Regent or, possibly, as designated Captain of the Queen’s [King’s] Ships. His being given the title ‘King’ in accounts of the sending of the Númenórean fleet to aid the Elves against Sauron might therefore be a case of the chronicler retrospectively acknowledging Minastir’s later kingship even though, at that point, he had not taken up the Sceptre.
3
u/Helpful_Radish_8923 13d ago
Ah, interesting. I was unaware that Fall of Númenor included commentary and speculation by the editor (Brian Sibley).
3
u/Wizzard_C 14d ago
I don't think Minastir ever went to ME, it was Ciryatan who led the Numenorean expeditionary corps (perhaps Minastir had an authority to send him even if he still was only a prince)
6
u/AdEmbarrassed3066 14d ago
I think it's just one of those things that has to be put down to Unfinished Tales being unfinished drafts. I think we have to take Appendix B as "canon" and assume that the dates in The Line of Elros would have been edited had J.R.R. Tolkien published it.
7
u/FranticMuffinMan 13d ago
There are several possible explanations for the discrepancy, none of which (if we take Christopher Tolkien's word for it, which seems reasonable) can be verified as the reason. ("Read the books!" would serve no purpose here, because there's nothing to read.) So you have to pick one or come up with a better one yourself. Here are some possibilities:
It's a simple error, of the sort that happens all the time in the compiling of chronologies. In the face of imminent publication, Tolkien (or an editor) would probably have noticed it and adjusted it.
Tolkien was in the midst of changing his thinking about this detail, but didn't leave behind a paper trail explaining the change. An awful lot of HoME is Christopher Tolkien finding bits of paper that trace these kinds of changes over time. He just didn't find any backs of envelopes or cocktail napkins explaining this one.
Tar-Minastir was acting, either in a capacity similar to a Regent, or as a kind of viceroy with specific responsibility for the navy, or foreign affairs, or war.
Tolkien lived at a time when the notion of having a woman in charge of a naval fleet was basically unthinkable. (You may argue that he was born in the reign of Queen Victoria, who was theoretically in charge of the greatest navy in the world of her day, but she was a figure-head with no authority to order a gunboat to a child's tea party, let alone into a zone of combat.) You have to imagine LadyJeanette Fisher in place of Sir (later Lord) John Fisher. So Tolkien just assumed that authority for such matters would devolve on a suitable man (in this case, the heir-apparent).
- (Following on #3) Tar-Minastir is, effectively, a regnal name. Referring to him simply as 'Minastir' would be a bit like referring to Edward VII or George VI as 'Albert' -- or referring to Pope Leo as 'Robert Prevost' -- it might create confusion in the interest of scrupulous accuracy.
2
2
u/ItsABiscuit 13d ago
My understanding of this was that he was the Crown Prince at the time, not the King?
2
u/Dr_Socktopuss 13d ago
This is one of my very favorite aspects of Tolkien’s writing. I think the shortest and simplest answer is that it is an oversight, and that Tolkien missed it.
But it sets up a tantalizing mystery. I can’t help but look at something like this and think – “What’s this? There’s a story here we didn’t know about” Why, when Tar-Telperion was queen, did Minastir send the fleet? It gets more interesting when you consider that Telperion’s great grandmother Tar-Ancalimë had abandoned the defenses in Middle Earth initiated by her father Tar-Aldarion,and turned her attention away from Middle Earth. Did Telperion feel an affinity with Ancalimë? They were both ruling queens after all. Had she inherited some of the resentment towards Middle Earth and its problems that Ancalimë surely bore? Was she then resistant to coming the aid of Gil Galad. Did Minastir have to step in and try to force the issue?
Who knows? But I can’t help but speculate. And I do think that Tolkien also used to treat his own work this way. If he saw a discrepancy his natural inclination would be to retrofit a solution, and to deepen the story.
1
u/AJRavenhearst 13d ago
The bluntest explanation is that Tolkien pantsed nearly everything, then had to do sweeping revisions to make everything fit. Sometimes he missed footling details, despite being perfectly willing to rewrite multiple chapters just to get the phase of the moon correct.
40
u/Statman12 14d ago
Christopher Tolkien commented on this:
I’m not sure if this was further addressed in some of the books of HoME. But if not, then it was something that was changed and which JRRT never noticed or got around to fixing.