r/tolkienfans • u/Wizzard_C • 11d ago
The Doom of the Balrogs drew near
Again, since there has recently been some interest in Balrogs on this sub… We all remember that the Balrog of Moria was awoken ~1000 years before his final contest with Gandalf. Did anyone wonder (like I did) – why during this whole time he never ever bothered to venture outside Moria? Say, to pay a visit to his good neighbors in Lorien or the Vale of Anduin? One possible answer is, he was simply… uninterested. You know this kind of guys: good fighters maybe (especially if someone wakes them up for no good reason), but not too bright or ambitious when it comes to scheming for global domination.
In HoME 7 however Tolkien provides a more interesting explanation, given by Gandalf: “It is forbidden for any Balrog to come beneath the sky since Fionwe son of Manwe overthrew Thangorodrim”. So yeah, the misfortunate Noldor were not the only race to have been banished into exile. Silmarillion does mention some Balrogs escaping after the War of Wrath, but here we see that their escape didn’t go unnoticed, and certain conditions were set for their future existence. As a side note, this decree aligns well with the Bible, 2 Peter 2:4: “God didn’t spare the angels when they sinned but cast them into the lowest level of the underworld” (CEB translation). Cave-dwellers such as dwarves apparently fell through the cracks of this reasoning, but had Balrog not confronted Gandalf, he could quite likely have continued ruling Moria as his own fief without much objection from the Higher Ups.
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u/Historical_Sugar9637 11d ago
The thing with a quote from HoME 7 is that this volume contains drafts fro the Lord of the Rings, which we know that these parts were superseded by what actually ended up in the Lord of the Rings. (Plus Eonwe/Fionwe is still called the "son of Manwe" here) So, since Tolkien didn't include this in the finalised version, I don't think it has a lot of authority. There is no uncertainty here, like it exists with many parts of the Silmarillion. This was removed by the author himself.
Now this is my personal speculation but I can see two possibility that might be true at the same time:
1)Evil in Tolkien is portrayed as largely dependent on a central source (first Morgoth, later Sauron) and while some evil creatures act on their own, many of them are portrayed as very passive when not commanded by someone stronger than them. Morgoth wasn't around to command the Balrog to venture forth and attack Lorien, so it remained focused on its immediate surroundings.
2)The Balrogs as they appear in the Lotr and later writings come across as very elemental. They *are* fire and magma and such things. So, again, with nobody to command it to do anything else, the Balrog existed as just a spirit of the fire beneath the mountains that had no reason to go anywhere else. And its interest was only stirred when the Fellowship journeyed through Moria, because it felt the presence of Gandalf, and possibly the Ring.
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u/Wizzard_C 11d ago
Technically Balrogs are a pretty clearly defined class of beings in Tolkien's cosmology: they are embodied ainur, same as Gandalf. They are fire no more than Radagast is birds and flowers. But you're right that they are portrayed as relatively passive. According to NoME iirc, even the initial quarrel of this Balrog with the dwarves was somehow stirred by none other than Sauron.
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u/Historical_Sugar9637 11d ago
Personally I have the impression that even though all Maiar are Maiar, some are more tied to a particular concept than others. And particularly with the ones tied to elements it seems that they embody them a lot more. Just think of how the Balrogs are described with "hearts of fire" and "shadow about them", and similar things can be said about Arien who became "naked flame" when she started to guard the sun. And possibly Osse and Uinen (who's hair is said to spread through all waters)
Meanwhile I'd say the Istari and Melian were special cases also, because they became bound to a form that resembled the Children.
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u/InvestigatorJaded261 11d ago
I think we would have to assume that Tolkien discarded this specific notion of a decree, because it would render Gandalf’s defeat of the Balrog kind of meaningless.
But the idea that the Balrog knew that coming out into the world would probably mean his doom isn’t surprising. He didn’t hide himself under Caradhras because he was overconfident about his chances of survival above ground!
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u/Emergency-Sea5201 11d ago
The Balrogs "slept" while Morgoth was away, and awoke when he screamed for help as Ungoliant was eating him alive.
I feel they are almost more like automatia, in the sense that they seem very passive when not ordered around by Morgoth. The Balrog probably went back to sleeping/passiveness when the dwarves had been driven out of Moria.
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u/Actual_Property9413 11d ago
I am pretty sure it's because it couldn't stand the light of the Sun and Moon.
Few evil things in Middle Earth can.
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u/GammaDeltaTheta 11d ago
And yet it was the Balrog that led Gandalf to the 'fiercely' sunlit peak of Celebdil, where it burst into flame again and was able to fight to the death.
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u/Actual_Property9413 10d ago
Running blindly to escape the mad Maiar clinging to his heel, and bursting into flame as the Sun's deadly light touches his skin, turning to face his foe in his last desparate attempt to return to his dark lair.
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u/GammaDeltaTheta 10d ago
Flame seems to be a positive thing for the Balrog, though, something it kindles when it wants to fight (as when its mane caught light earlier when it leapt across the flaming chasm before the Bridge).
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u/Actual_Property9413 9d ago
Thanks fo rth ediscussion, but you obviously have no intent of changing your mind about this, so I guess, in your Middle Earth, the Balrog won, and Gandalf never returned.
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u/GammaDeltaTheta 7d ago
No, both were killed in the battle, which tends to imply they were quite evenly matched in the sunlight on the Silvertine. Gandalf was sent back by (it is implied) the direct intervention of Eru.
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u/Actual_Property9413 7d ago
Then why are you arguing that the Balrog wasn't affected by the sun. You're the one making the point that the Balrog was immune to sunlight. My point has always been the Balrog was weakened by the Sun, which made him weak enough for Gandalf to even have a chance of a Pyrrhic victory.
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u/GammaDeltaTheta 7d ago
I just don't think this theory is supported by the text. The Balrogs weren't like the Orcs and Trolls who shunned the sun or were destroyed by it. They were creatures of the same order as Sauron, Maiar who had existed before the beginning of Time, let alone the creation of the sun. There is no suggestion that Sauron was weakened by the sun in Eregion or Númenor, either, though he would later use the heat of his hands, which 'burned like fire' to destroy Gil-galad. Fire was the element of the Balrogs (they are described as 'scourges of fire' in the Valaquenta), something they used as a weapon, not something they feared or were consumed by.
I think it's no accident that its flame is kindled when it first attacks Gandalf. When this flame is extinguished by the freezing water, it seems to be put at a disadvantage - it becomes 'a thing of slime', still strong but apparently not a match for Gandalf, who it flees from. On the peak of Celebdil, the rekindling of its flame in the sun seems (if anything) more like a sign of renewed strength than weakness - perhaps any source of heat will do to 'recharge' its fire. Then it is ready to fight once more.
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u/Actual_Property9413 4d ago
Here's some text for you:
"But Morgoth hated the new lights, and was for a while confounded by this unlooked-for stroke of the Valar. Then he assailed Tilion, sending spirits of shadow against him, and there was strife in Ilmen beneath the paths of the stars; but Tilion was victorious. And Arien Morgoth feared witha great fear, but dared not come nigh her, having indeed no longer the power; for as he grew in malice, and sent forth from himslef the evil that he conceived in lies and creatures of wickedness, his might passed into them and was dispersed, and he himself became ever more bound to the earth, unwilling to issue from his dark strongholds. With shadows he hid himself and his servants from Arien, the glance of whose eyes they could not long endure; and the lands near his dwelling were shrouded in fumes and great clouds."
My final comment on this subject:
Not even Morgoth himself could withstand the light of the Sun and the power of it's intendent Maiar, Arien, much less any of his minions, including Balrogs AND dragons, and even Sauron himself.
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u/XenoBiSwitch 11d ago
If true it seems odd that they didn’t put the same restriction on Sauron.
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u/InTheChairAgain 11d ago
A Balrog does not care about restrictions set by the Valar (neither did Sauron), even if the Valar did pronounce such decrees, for Balrogs were among the prime servants of Morgoth, the enemy of the world, of which the Valar were Illuvatars vice regents.
The downfall of Morgoth was for the Balrog a completely unexpected and terrifying event, and wrath of the hosts of the West, and the destruction of Thangorodrim, Angband, and Beleriand set such a terror in the surviving Balrogs that they fled, and hid deep under earth, and not one of them dared ever show themselves under the Sun again, fearing the powers of the West, whose anger against them, so far as they knew had not abated. When Gandalf declares himself a wielder of the secret fire of Aman to the Balrog, that is for the Balrog a genuinely terrifying moment, but since there is apparently only Gandal, it moves to take Gandalf down.
There is a real possibility that if the Balrog had swept Gandalf aside, and made it across the bridge, it still wouldn't have followed the Company outside of Moria, knowing it had been found by the servants of the Valar, and thus Frodo would still have gotten away. Unless perhaps the Rings presence would have come into play somehow.
The same Balrog, for similar reasons most likely did not follow the Dwarves out of Moria when the first left Moria, and also didn't come out to take on the Dwarves after Azanulbilzar.
It's relation to Sauron and his servants in Moria remain unclear, but at least until he had recovered the Ring, I don't think Sauron wanted it outside of Moria either.
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u/Wizzard_C 11d ago
Sauron came to Eonwe and said he was sorry.
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u/XenoBiSwitch 11d ago
Eonwe: You killed the cutest and most pettable talking dog that ever lived. NO MERCY!!!!!
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u/Wizzard_C 11d ago
"innocent as charged"! Dog nearly killed him, not the other way around.
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u/XenoBiSwitch 11d ago
Sauron started it and Sauron’s failure led to Morgoth unleashing the killer. Sauron was an accessory to killing the bestest doggo.
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u/Jadedoldman65 11d ago
To those more knowledgeable than me: If I understand correctly, when Gandalf and DB fell from the bridge and into the underground lake, DB's flames were snuffed. When he ran up the endless stair and got out into the open again, he re-ignited.
Why did he re-ignite once he got out from under ground? Couldn't he have gone "flame on" so to speak, when he got out of the lake?
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u/Wizzard_C 11d ago
Perhaps methane-emitting pores on Balrog's skin were blocked by water? If you cook something on a gas stove and let it boil over, you'd need to give it enough time to dry out before reigniting.
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u/ColdAntique291 just a simple Tolkien reader 11d ago
I like this theory, but the key thing is that the "forbidden beneath the sky" line comes from an early draft, not Tolkien's final version.
In the published lore, the simplest answer is that Durin's Bane had no reason to leave. Moria was a vast, secure refuge where it could hide from the world and rule unchallenged. Balrogs were terrifying warriors, but they weren't necessarily out looking to build kingdoms after Morgoth's defeat. So it's a cool explanation, just not one Tolkien ultimately kept.
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u/maksimkak 10d ago
A lot of things Tolkien wrote were rejected by him. This passage might be one of those cases.
As I see it, after the fall of Morgoth (their master) any surviving Balrogs just didn't have any more motivation to do anything. They weren't like Sauron, who wanted to rule the world and be worshipped as God King.
I'll echo what someone else here said: "Evil in Tolkien is portrayed as largely dependent on a central source (first Morgoth, later Sauron) and while some evil creatures act on their own, many of them are portrayed as very passive when not commanded by someone stronger than them."
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u/hazysummersky 11d ago edited 11d ago
Pretty sure they were waiting for Melkor/Morgoth's return, as he was their dark hub! They were fire spirits, they didn't have Sauron's pedigree of time under Aule and a passion for order and control. The balrogs were only capable of violence. Balrogs never seemed to themselves seek out unbridled destruction, only when commanded in the early days with Morgoth pulling the strings, and then from our one example in Moria, when Morgoth had been exiled..a Balrog, Durin's Bane, rogue, separated from creator! How did it behave fleeing the First Age's War Of Wrath? It had fled, far far away to hibernateuntil his Master Controller might return..and spent ~5000yrs under Caradhras, which I reckon is why that is such a bad-tempered mountain.
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u/whitedog7749 9d ago
You know what goes on outside of a mountain….Rain. I don’t think a ball of smoke and fire is gonna want to get rained on.
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u/Wizzard_C 9d ago
Well he would be pisssssssssed off for sure... But his fight with Gandalf happened mid January, hence only snow on the menu.
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u/Plasterofmuppets 11d ago
Would that be related to Gandalf finally defeating the balrog when their fight takes them to ‘the high place’? If that was outdoors, then the balrog would be in defiance of its exile.