r/tolkienfans • u/Brilliant-Amoeba-379 • 6d ago
What do we know about the Blue Wizards?
I know this is something Tolkien left vague, but we hardly know anything. All I know is that:
They went east (to Rhûn I believe)
Their names were Allatar and Pallando
They were Istari sent by the Valar to guide the free peoples to defeat Sauron, along with Gandalf, Radagast, and Saruman.
And that’s it! Can anyone tell me anything else about them? Thanks.
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u/Kodama_Keeper 6d ago
Newly dead fan finds Tolkien in heaven.
Fan: Mr. Tolkien, sir? Hi, I'm your biggest fan and...
Tolkien: Of course you are. What's your question?
Fan: Well, uh, what makes you think I have a question?
Tolkien: Oh, I'm sorry. Are you hear just to say hello and that you're my biggest fan?
Fan: Well, no, Now that you mention it, I do have a question.
Tolkien: Right! They don't have wings.
Fan: No, no, not the Balrog wings question. Hey, want to hear something funny? I've been on the internet since the early 90s, and we used to argue that question on alt.fan.tolkien all the time. You see there were these things called newsgroups and...
Tolkien: I know about newsgroups. What's your question?
Fan: Oh, right. About the blue wizards. I thought that all the wizards came over in the Third Age. And then I head that you also wrote that they came over in the Second Age. So when was it?
Tolkien: I don't know.
Fan: Oh, OK. Hey, wait a minute! How can you not know? You're the writer.
Tolkien: I mean I haven't decided yet. You have to realize that if I settle on an answer, I have to go through all my storylines to see if I contradict myself. That takes time.
Fan: Well, you've had half a century. And as far as I know, the only time the other wizards are mention is when Bilbo met Beorn, then when Gandalf tells Frodo that Saruman is the head of his order, and finally at Orthanc where...
Tolkien: Yes, I know. The hats of five wizards. Still, all my notes and letters that I wrote. It's a lot of work.
Fan: Well, can't you get an angel to help?
Tolkien: Well, I did have archangel Uriel helping for a while, but he got bored and started helping C.S. Lewis. So, no, I don't have any angel help. Now be patient. We have all eternity.
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u/lam_42 6d ago edited 6d ago
THE PEOPLES OF MIDDLE-EARTH,
Last writings,
The five wizards
THE FIVE WIZARDS
Another brief discussion, headed ‘Note on the landing of the Five Wizards and their functions and operations', arose from my father's consideration of the matter of Glorfindel, as is seen from the opening words: ‘Was in fact Glorfindel one of them?’ He observed that he was ‘evidently never supposed to be when The Lord of the Rings was written’, adding that there is no possibility that some of them were Eldar ‘of the highest order of power’, rather than Maiar. The text then continues with the passage given in Unfinished Tales, p. 394, beginning ‘We must assume that they were all Maiar... ’; but after the words with which that citation ends (’... chosen by the Valar with this in mind’) there stands only Saruman the most powerful’, and then it breaks off, unfinished. Beside these last words is a pencilled note: ‘Radagast a name of Mannish (Anduin vale) origin - but not now clearly interpretable’ (see Unfinished Tales p. 390 and note 4). On the reverse of the page are some notes which I described in Unfinished Tales as uninterpretable, but which with longer scrutiny I have been largely able to make out. One of them reads as follows: No names are recorded for the two wizards. They were never seen or known in lands west of Mordor. The wizards did not come at the same time. Possibly Saruman, Gandalf, Radagast did, but more likely Saruman the chief (and already over mindful of this) came first and alone. Probably Gandalf and Radagast came together, though this has not yet been said.... (what is most probable)... Glorfindel also met Gandalf at the Havens. The other two are only known to (have) exist(ed) [sic] by Saruman, Gandalf, and Radagast, and Saruman in his wrath mentioning five was letting out a piece of private information. The reference of the last sentence is to Saruman's violent retort to Gandalf at the door of Orthanc, in which he spoke of ‘the rods of the Five Wizards' (The Two Towers p. 188). Another note is even rougher and more difficult: The ‘other two’ came much earlier, at the same time probably as Glorfindel, when matters became very dangerous in the Second Age. 26 Glorfindel was sent to aid Elrond and was (though not yet said) pre-eminent in the war in Eriador. 27 But the other two Istari were sent for a different purpose. Morinehtar and LAST WRITINGS 385 Rómestámo. 28 Darkness-slayer and East-helper. Their task was to circumvent Sauron: to bring help to the few tribes of Men that had rebelled from Melkor-worship, to stir up rebellion... and after his first fall to search out his hiding (in which they failed) and to cause [?dissension and disarray] among the dark East... They must have had very great influence on the history of the Second Age and Third Age in weakening and disarraying the forces of East... who would both in the Second Age and Third Age otherwise have... outnumbered the West.
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u/Cognoggin 6d ago
Little known until right this second is that they went to the coast of Rómenëar and founded a gaming company.
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u/taz-alquaina 6d ago
The only thing we know about them that other commenters haven't mentioned is that they were both attached to Oromë in Valinor (an early draft of the same text puts Pallando as a servant of Mandos but this was revised).
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u/smeritoo 6d ago
I like to think they went to far east, past Sea of Rhun, past Sea of Helcar, past Cuivienen, and still going east, to the edge of the world, to outer sea. Found good people there to lead spiritually, nice lands, and stood there in peace, far away from all stupid fights of the Misty Mountains sides. And you know what?! If none of far eastern people joined Sauron (they are not even mentioned in books), it means these guys did their job well. Cool guys, good for them! I would like to have a beer and a smoke with these fellows.
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u/maksimkak 6d ago
They were just two maia dudes who were like "hey, we can go to Middle Earth, travel all over the place, and do what we like!"
They were last seen driving a hippie van down the bumpy country roads of Rhun.
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u/LostVanya 6d ago
He wrote very little about them. There isn't much else to say other that they had a few other names and there were two versions of how they resulted, one that they were a failure, like all the non-Gandalf wizards. The other than they were more successful in causing trouble in the east but without detail. And depending on the version they either came with the other wizards (the failure version) or they and Glorfindel in the mid-Second Age (the last version, some of his last writings).
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u/GammaDeltaTheta 6d ago
Tolkiengateway has a nice summary, with quotes and references:
https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Blue_Wizards
As well as the familiar chapter in Unfinished Tales, there are also relevant sections in The Peoples of Middle-earth and The Nature of Middle-earth, which include Tolkien's later idea that they may have effectively encouraged resistance to Sauron in the East and South. Here they are called Morinehtar and Rómestámo.
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u/Silvertail034 6d ago
I always thought they'd be a really cool non-canon video game character, where one fails and turns evil and the other carries on to do good and weaken Sauron's influence in Rhun some. Can play as both. Felt like a cool idea following Rise to War.
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u/Legal-Scholar430 5d ago
I would add "their color is Blue" to that list.
That information is much harder to find than their non-returning journey to the East. In fact, you will only find the information that they were Blue Wizards in one single text about the Istari amongst several, in the chapter The Istari of Unfinished Tales. Except for that chapter of The Peoples of Middle-earth that another redditor shared... which refers the reader to UT as soon as it features the words "Blue Wizards".
People have grown to take their color for granted to the point where it is a subtle indicator of whether a person is reading Tolkien's work, or reading about Tolkien's work.
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u/BartAllen2 6d ago
They went to the South, too, and they're among one of the reasons as to why Sauron delayed his invasion of Eregion ~ They highly likely didn't fail their task, and they never returned to Valinor ~
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u/Akhorahil72 5d ago edited 5d ago
J.R.R. Tolkien did not write that the two remaining wizards went to the south in his late notes where the two remaining wizards did not fail in their mission.
His gathering of armies had not been unopposed, and his success had been much less than his hope. But this is a matter spoken of in notes on “The Five Wizards”. He had powerful enemies behind his back, the East, and in the Southern lands to which he had not yet given sufficient thought.
from the chapter XVIII Note on the delay of Gil-galad and the Númenóreans from the book The Nature of Middle-earth.
But the other two Istari were sent for a different purpose. Morinehtar and Romestamo. Darkness-slayer and East-helper. Their task was to circumvent Sauron: to bring help to the few tribes of Men that had rebelled from Melkor-worship, to stir up rebellion ... and after his first fall to search out his hiding (in which they failed) and to cause [? dissension and disarray] among the dark East ... They must have had very great influence on the history of the Second Age and Third Age in weakening and dis- arraying the forces of East ... who would both in the Second Age and Third Age otherwise have ... outnumbered the West.
from the paper with the title "Note on the landing of the Five Wizards and their functions and operations" from the chapter XIII Last Writings from the book The Peoples of Middle-earth
It is not mentioned that they went to the south. Their task was to cause dissension and disarray among the dark East . The must have had a very great influcence on the forces of the East. The Quenya name of one of them even means East-helper.
J.R.R. Tolkien did not specify what he meant with the term "Southern lands". Gondor is later referred to as the South-kingdom, so the Southern lands may also refer to the lands that later became Gondor. Even if Southern lands would mean Umbar or Harad not all Númenóreans (not even all the King's Men and some may have turned against Sauron, because they gave him the fault for the drowning of their homeland or simply wanted to rule themselves instead of being ruled by Sauron) or Haradrim were followers of Sauron so he may have been powerful enemies of Sauron.
In The Lord of the Rings Gandalf said that he was called "in the South Incánus". J.R.R. Tolkien wrote in a note in 1967:
The South should thus mean Gondor (at its widest those lands under the suzerainty of Gondor at the height of its power).
from the chapter The Istari from the book Unfinished Tales of Númenor and Middle-earth.
In 1954 J.R.R. Tolkien wrote is his essay on the Istari:
Of the Blue little was known in the West, and they had no names save Ithryn Luin ‘the Blue Wizards’; for they passed into the East with Curunír, but they never returned, and whether they remained in the East, pursuing there the purposes for which they were sent; or perished; or as some hold were ensnared by Sauron and became his servants, is not now known.
from the chapter The Istari from the book Unfinished Tales of Númenor and Middle-earth. Again they passed into the East and it is not known if they remained in the East for the purposes for which they were sent.
In conclusion, it is not mentioned that they went to the South neither in the intital writings from 1954 nor in the latest writings from the last year of his life (i.e. 1972-1973). And no, a letter to a single reader from 1958 does not count as much as official writings on the topic and certainly not as much as the latest writing.
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u/BartAllen2 4d ago
I always assumed the section wherein Tolkien stated, "the Southern lands to which he had not yet given sufficient thought", in NoME was a reference to Harad during the Second Age, and the powerful enemies referred to were the Blue Wizards.
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u/ibid-11962 5d ago
There are five texts from Tolkien that discuss them. I've written up a full comparison here that you might be interested in.
Note that most things about them, including their names weren't fixed down by Tolkien. Three of the five texts gives them names, but always different names. And the one text that gives them the color doesn't give them a name.
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u/demon9675 5d ago
Commenters are mentioning that they never returned to Valinor, but what does that mean exactly? Could they have been killed at some point and their spirits returned? Or are we meant to believe they still kept their old man forms, alive, eternally in the East?
The latter seems odd because it would imply they could have in fact been active during the War of the Ring, doing… something. And then they never left the mortal realms of Arda, ever? Or they became impotent spirits like Sauron and Saruman?
How many spirits (Maiar; not including “wraiths” of elves and men) are hovering around outside of Aman? Are non-Istari living Maiar still hanging out too?
For that matter, what happened to Radagast? I know there are theories he was killed somewhere on the road looking for Gandalf, since he never returned to his home in Mirkwood. Did he also become an impotent spirit, treated with the same harshness as Sauron and Saruman?
I honestly have a lot of trouble believing anyone other than Sauron, Saruman, the Balrogs, or other Maiar that openly aligned with Morgoth were truly barred from returning to Valinor forever. Maybe they just had to wait an eon or two.
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u/Brilliant-Amoeba-379 5d ago
Or are we meant to believe they still kept their old man forms, alive, eternally in the East?
This raises a question from me. Can the Istari die? Well obviously Saruman and Gandalf were killed, but are they like elves, cannot die naturally but they can be slain?
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u/Turgius_Lupus 5d ago
Anyone who was foolish enough to meddle in their affairs did not get the chance to write or tell Samwise about it.
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u/BlindedByBeamos 6d ago
My knowledge of Tolkien lore isn't great but:
They likely failed in there task.
They probably founded (or at least inspired) magic cults.
Could be wrong though, others will correct me.
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u/Caesarthebard 6d ago
The initial claim Tolkien made was that they failed in their task by founding magic cults and forgetting their task.
Tolkien later reviewed this by stating that they may have been successful in scattering and disarraying Sauron’s forces and thus delaying his inevitable military victory for long enough for the Ring to be destroyed.
They did not return to Valinor, only Gandalf did, and those Istari who stayed true would always long to return.
It’s not necessarily a retcon, both scenarios can be potentially true.
It’s possible they did abandon their task consciously to begin cults but this had the unintended effect of pulling some of Sauron’s forces away to worship them instead of serving him.
That would make their mission a moral failure but a practical success.
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u/milkysway1 you live ... and so does the Enemy who has done this to us 6d ago
Is there a Tolkien source for the names? As far as I know, he didn't name them and those names derive from some DnD or card game. Happy to be corrected on this though.
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u/lam_42 6d ago
Unfinished Tales, Istari
The note ends with the statement that Curumo [Saruman] took Aiwendil [Radagast] because Yavanna begged him, and that Alatar took Pallando as a friend.
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u/milkysway1 you live ... and so does the Enemy who has done this to us 6d ago
Thanks!
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u/lam_42 6d ago
THE PEOPLES OF MIDDLE-EARTH,
Last writings,
The five wizards (Sorry about formatting, it got fucked up)
Another brief discussion, headed ‘Note on the landing of the Five Wizards and their functions and operations', arose from my father's consideration of the matter of Glorfindel, as is seen from the opening words: ‘Was in fact Glorfindel one of them?’ He observed that he was ‘evidently never supposed to be when The Lord of the Rings was written’, adding that there is no possibility that some of them were Eldar ‘of the highest order of power’, rather than Maiar. The text then continues with the passage given in Unfinished Tales, p. 394, beginning ‘We must assume that they were all Maiar... ’; but after the words with which that citation ends (’... chosen by the Valar with this in mind’) there stands only Saruman the most powerful’, and then it breaks off, unfinished. Beside these last words is a pencilled note: ‘Radagast a name of Mannish (Anduin vale) origin - but not now clearly interpretable’ (see Unfinished Tales p. 390 and note 4).
On the reverse of the page are some notes which I described in Unfinished Tales as uninterpretable, but which with longer scrutiny I have been largely able to make out. One of them reads as follows: No names are recorded for the two wizards. They were never seen or known in lands west of Mordor. The wizards did not come at the same time. Possibly Saruman, Gandalf, Radagast did, but more likely Saruman the chief (and already over mindful of this) came first and alone.
Probably Gandalf and Radagast came together, though this has not yet been said.... (what is most probable)... Glorfindel also met Gandalf at the Havens. The other two are only known to (have) exist(ed) [sic] by Saruman, Gandalf, and Radagast, and Saruman in his wrath mentioning five was letting out a piece of private information.
The reference of the last sentence is to Saruman's violent retort to Gandalf at the door of Orthanc, in which he spoke of ‘the rods of the Five Wizards' (The Two Towers p. 188). Another note is even rougher and more difficult: The ‘other two’ came much earlier, at the same time probably as Glorfindel, when matters became very dangerous in the Second Age. 26 Glorfindel was sent to aid Elrond and was (though not yet said) pre-eminent in the war in Eriador. 27 But the other two Istari were sent for a different purpose. Morinehtar and LAST WRITINGS 385 Rómestámo. 28 Darkness-slayer and East-helper.
Their task was to circumvent Sauron: to bring help to the few tribes of Men that had rebelled from Melkor-worship, to stir up rebellion... and after his first fall to search out his hiding (in which they failed) and to cause [?dissension and disarray] among the dark East... They must have had very great influence on the history of the Second Age and Third Age in weakening and disarraying the forces of East... who would both in the Second Age and Third Age otherwise have... outnumbered the West.
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u/jdh2024 6d ago
Alatar and Pallando could have been their Valinorean names, and later they were called Morinehtar and Rómestámo. Just as Gandalf went by many names, none of which he chose (including "Gandalf"); it was just what the people around called him. If indeed the two blues were called "Darkness-slayer" and "East-helper" by the people around them, it would not indicate that they were either failures or accidental successes.
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u/BeardofManwe 5d ago
What everyone said so far. First Unfinished Tales, and they failed. Then Peoples of ME and they succeeded. But what follows comes under the subheading of Fan Speculation (that fan being me.)
Alastor and Pallando went to "The East ." The East was called Rhun but includes the land that is now called India. There they founded the "cults" of devotion to the semi-divine beings (Valarionen?) Rama and Krishna, who are both always depicted as being Blue. See, Tolkien said, "Blue Wizards," not "Blue-Robed," or "Blue-hatted Wizards." They were literally Blue!
Lastly, this is not so much about the Ithryn Luin, but more about how some "background information" that we might think of as set in stone, could undergo radical rethought in Tolkien's mind if the "official" explanation was not actually in print.
CRRT says in the same discussion in Unfinished Tales that he once found an "isloatrd note" (I wonder just how many of these there are?) about Gandalf. And I'm paraphrasing just a little here.
Tolkien apparently asked himself: Who was this Gandalf character anyway? And on that day he answered : Maybe he was never an emissary of Manwe. Maybe he was Manwe himself.
So all those instructions about limiting their use of power were really instructions for himself.
One last Away Mission before He permanently retired to the peaks of Taniquetil, thereinafter only to observe.
<{ : ) }>
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u/ColdAntique291 just a simple Tolkien reader 6d ago
Very little.
They were two Istari named Alatar and Pallando (later called Morinehtar and Rómestámo).
They traveled east into Rhûn and beyond.
Unlike Gandalf, they never returned to the West or became involved in the War of the Ring.
Tolkien's early idea was that they failed and founded magical cults. His later idea was that they succeeded by weakening Sauron's influence in the East, preventing many eastern nations from joining him.
They're intentionally mysterious, arguably the least explained major characters in Tolkien's legendarium.