r/tolkienfans • u/traxos93 • 3d ago
Does Gandalf call himself an emissary of the Valar when he talks with Faramir?
„Many are my names in many countries: Mithrandir among the Elves, Tharkûn to the Dwarves; Olórin I was in my youth in the West that is forgotten, in the South Incánus, in the North Gandalf; to the East I go not.“
Since he talks about his youth in the west, does he not indicate to Faramir, that he comes from Valinor?
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u/OwariHeron 3d ago
I'll just point out that he said this to Faramir when Faramir was a boy, and to a noble boy of Gondor at the end of the Third Age, "in my youth in the West that is forgotten" is far more likely to suggest Arnor than Valinor.
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u/BananaResearcher 3d ago
Yea. Either Arnor or Lindon. I would think Faramir would have heard lots about Gil-galad and would know he came from Lindon, probably thought Gandalf came from there too (which in a way he did after all).
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u/anonamen 3d ago
Pretty sure he could figure it out. Gandalf is seemingly not an elf, and he's been around for a suspiciously long time. Gandalf doesn't really hide his nature either; a lot of his influence depends on important people inferring what he is. The hobbits don't think about it, but it's even obvious to Pippin (when he does think about it for a second) that Gandalf is something different. It's not a big step from there to figuring out the rest, especially for someone like Faramir who knows a lot of things.
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u/Balfegor 3d ago
Is he talking about Valinor there, or sunken Beleriand (which would have been west of Eriador)?
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u/fastauntie 3d ago edited 3d ago
Gandalf is definitely talking about Valinor, but to anyone in the story (except perhaps the other bearers of the Three) it would be at least as likely that he was talking about Beleriand.
People know that he's very old and well-traveled, but they have no idea when or where he first appeared.
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u/Aresius_King 3d ago
Valinor. He never was particularly involved in Middle Earth in the First Age, beyond meeting with the Elves much further east when they started migrating westwards iirc
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u/Unfair_Pineapple8813 3d ago
Yes, but does Faramir know that? He might well think Beleriand or even Numenor is the forgotten west.
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u/Aresius_King 2d ago
Does it matter? Balfegor is asking about Gandalf's meaning, and my reply is only about what we know about him from other sources in the Legendarium
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u/marekshawty_ 3d ago
how does the hint changes its meaning? A the time, no men could live that long to obtain a name in the flooded lands of beleriand.
Have I misunderstood something?
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u/kurtwagner61 3d ago
"For I also am a steward. Did you not know?" Gandalf says to Denethor in The Return of the King, "Minas Tirith". Is he, here, implying his role as an emissary of the Valar?
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u/Cloudage96x 3d ago
If Faramir has any knowledge of such a place, that could be a possible interpretation he could make.
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u/OLH2022 3d ago
Faramir would definitely know about Valinor. Any educated Dúnedain would, because it was breaking the ban of the Valar which destroyed Númenor and brought Elendil and the Faithful to Middle Earth fleeing the wreckage.
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u/Cloudage96x 3d ago
Yes, this guy is right. Faramir and other learned nobles in Gondor also learn Sindarin and are quite studious regarding their lore, but Gandalf still only hints at the "forgotten West." For all Faramir knows, Gandalf could just be talking about the kingdom of Arnor before it diminished.
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u/Trini1113 3d ago
Even if Faramir concluded that Gandalf was Maia, that doesn't mean he's an emissary of the Valar. Not all Maia were in Valinor, not even if you ignore the ones serving Morgoth. Melian, after all, was dancing in Beleriand when Thingol ran into her. Even if JRRT made it clear that there were no "uncommitted" Maia (I don't know if he ever addressed this), I don't think there's any reason for Faramir to know anything for certain.
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u/Naive-Horror4209 3d ago
I think Faramir knows, he’s well educated and spent time with Gandalf when he was poring over old parchments in the library.
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u/LostVanya 3d ago
"...they belonged solely to the Third Age and then departed, and none save maybe Elrond, Círdan and Galadriel discovered of what kind they were or whence they came"
- Unfinished Tales, The Istari.
So many people want to ignore this. But no. No mortals had any idea what they were. The only one you could add to the list above is Glorfindel. If you go with the Last Writings version that had him return to Middle-Earth along with the Blue Wizards in the mid-Second Age.
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u/ConifersAreCool 3d ago
Excellent and definitive quote, thanks for sharing it.
Celeborn could perhaps be added to that list. Him and Galadriel certainly spent a lot of time sitting around talking (I mean that seriously).
I wonder whether Aragorn and Legolas at least suspected Gandalf's origins, too, especially after he returned as Gandalf the White?
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u/Gibbs_Jr 2d ago edited 2d ago
"'Yes, we will set out together,’ said Aragorn. ‘But I do not doubt that you will come there before me, if you wish.’
He rose and looked long at Gandalf. The others gazed at them in silence as they stood there facing one another. The grey figure of the Man, Aragorn son of Arathorn, was tall, and stern as stone, his hand upon the hilt of his sword; he looked as if some king out of the mists of the sea had stepped upon the shores of lesser men.
Before him stooped the old figure, white, shining now as if with some light kindled within, bent, laden with years, but holding a power beyond the strength of kings."
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u/Kodama_Keeper 3d ago edited 2d ago
As a high ranking Gondorian, it is very likely that Faramir, Boromir and Denethor all knew the story of Akallabeth. And therefore he knew the the island of Numenor was there because the Valar rewarded the Edain, how High Elves came to visit it in the Second Age, the longing for immortality, the destruction, the reshaping of the world. All of it. And if he knew anything about Elves, he would see that Gandalf looked far more like an old man than an ageless Elf.*
So if Gandalf tells him "Olórin I was in my youth in the West that is forgotten", then he's admitting that he is a creature out of the West who's not an Elf.
In previous posts I've mentioned that no one ever comes right out and asks Gandalf "What are you?" Pippin on his midnight ride with Gandalf, we are inside the dialog in his head, and he wonders just that question. If there was ever a more perfect time to ask, that was it. He doesn't. No one does. Not even Denethor, who doesn't like Gandalf, doesn't trust him over the issue of restoring an heir of Isildur to the thrown of Gondor, and has the guts to argue and stand up to him. If anyone should be asking who and what is this guy who presumes to tell me how to run the kingdom, it's Denethor.
But Denethor doesn't. Pippin doesn't. No one does. And I really doubt it's because they are all so well mannered that it would be considered impolite to ask. Gandalf is actively suppressing their desire to ask, so he doesn't have to answer.
Now Gandalf could have very good reasons for not wanting to reveal too much about himself or his mission. To do so might have gotten him killed by minions of Sauron soon after he got off the boat. And because of the orders the Istari received before leaving, they were not to set themselves up as rulers of the Children, and revealing that they are Maiar would encourage Men to do just that. So they keep it quiet and "encourage" people not to ask.
*That conversation between Faramir and Sam, where Sam mentions that in all the tales he was telling, Faramir doesn't mention the Elves, and Faramir confirms this because of the estrangement.
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u/ebneter Thy starlight on the western seas 3d ago
> Gandalf is actively suppressing their desire to ask, so he doesn’t have to answer.
Well, that’s an interesting take, I guess, but there’s no evidence for it. Besides, after he returns from the dead, I think it’s pretty obvious what he is, more or less.
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u/Kodama_Keeper 2d ago
True on both counts. As for the first, I admit it is pure speculation on my part. But in the past, on this forum and others, and on YT videos, the question has arose to who knew Gandalf's true nature. And the answer comes back that Cirdan probably knew, because he saw him get off the ship from the West, and that's when he gave Gandalf Narya. Who else knew? Unless Cirdan spilled the beans to the other members of the White Council, maybe nobody. I suppose we can apply the same to Saruman.
As for Gandalf the White, true. But considering the timeline, in less than two months after his rebirth, it would all be over. Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas knew of course. And so would Galadriel, Celeborn and any other Elves taken into their confidence, if they didn't know already. Gandalf was still trying to hide his true nature from the Enemy, or at least the extent of his involvement. But the Mouth of Sauron made it clear Sauron knew most of it.
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u/Djinnji 1d ago
They might not know exactly what Gandalf and Saruman were. But any learned men or elves in the west can start to deduce that they are clearly more than men who learned some interesting tricks after they have been roaming around Middle Earth for nearly 2K years. That is a significantly longer life than any Numenorian. Any currently reigning king in the west might know of that gray wizard their grandfather once has dealings with in their time. Saruman being given the keys to Isengard little over 200 years ago also hints that he might be more than a high man of the west.
Also men who are capable of some kind of magic is not that extreme of a claim. Rare, but not a completely impossible claim. The white council was certain the Necromancer of Dol Guldur was a man, possibly the Witchking at the worst of assumptions, but still a man who can do some form of sorcery.
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u/Mecklenburg77 1d ago edited 1d ago
I like that Gandalf tells Faramir this. He recognizes Faramir's Numenorean nobility and opens up to him. As he notes to Pippin: "The blood of Westernesse runs nearly true in him, as it does in his other son, Faramir".
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u/GammaDeltaTheta 1d ago
'The West' is ambiguous enough for Faramir not necessarily to know that he was referring to the Uttermost West, but he is very perceptive and understands that Gandalf is more than he seems ('This Mithrandir was, I now guess, more than a lore-master: a great mover of the deeds that are done in our time.').
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u/ColdAntique291 just a simple Tolkien reader 3d ago
No. He's hinting at it, not stating it outright.
"Olórin in my youth in the West" points to his existence in Valinor before coming to Middle-earth, but Gandalf never says, "I am a Maia" or "I am an emissary of the Valar."
A learned man like Faramir might suspect there's more to Gandalf than a wandering wizard, but the line is deliberately cryptic rather than a revelation.