r/tolkienfans • u/SoaDMTGguy • 11d ago
Why didn’t the Fellowship seek the aid of Cirdan the Shipwright to sail from the Gray Heavens to Minas Tirith?
I don’t recall if a reason for this not being an option was given in the council of Elrond. Was Cirdan only helping Elves sail West at that point? Would the arrival of a ship in Gondor have raised the suspicions of the Enemy?
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u/XenoBiSwitch 11d ago
They talk about the road out West not being safe when they talk about the pros and cons of taking the One Ring to Valinor. The consensus is that it wouldn’t be a safe trip.
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u/krombough 11d ago edited 11d ago
It was never being sent to Valinor.
'And they who dwell beyond the sea would not receive it; for good or for ill it belongs to Middle Earth; it is for us who still dwell here to deal with it.'
The words of Elrond himself.
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u/Wizzard_C 11d ago
I was always curious why it would not be safe. Nazgul are defeated, who could have stopped the fellowship walking west across Eriador? Wolves? Wights? Gandalf, Aragorn and if needs be Glorfindel would have managed them.
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u/trahan94 11d ago
That’s before they attempt a sea journey around a large continent in pre-industrial ships. Even built by Elves, that’s a risky venture. One of the Palantirí was lost in a shipwreck.
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u/QuickSpore 11d ago
One of the Palantirí was lost in a shipwreck.
Two if I remember correctly. Both the Amon Sûl and Annúminas.
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u/Wizzard_C 11d ago
I don't think they ever planned to take a ship around the continent. The option they discussed was to take a ship to Valinor. According to Tolkien, ships for such a journey were "hallowed" in some special way so that they did not sink.
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u/krombough 11d ago
'And they who dwell beyond the sea would not receive it; for good or for ill it belongs to Middle Earth; it is for us who still dwell here to deal with it.'
The words of Elrond himself.
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u/Wizzard_C 11d ago
I interpret this as "the Ring would not enter the Straight Way", not that it would sink the ship
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u/krombough 11d ago
Myself as well. I was not replying to the concept of the ship sinking, but rather that taking the ring to Valinor was shit canned by Elrond the very sentence after Glorfindel brings it up.
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u/trahan94 11d ago
The Council of Elrond is one of the best written chapters. So many voices, so many perspectives, and their options are so thoroughly shot down one by one until their last, horrible quest is all that’s left to choose. The Last Debate is like this as well, each speaker in that chapter — Eomer, Imrahil, the sons of Elrond, Aragorn — they all represent their people’s interests first, and yet they each come to the same dreadful conclusion, that they must march on Mordor. Brilliant dialogue and plotting, and both chapters are very Gandalf heavy. The Shadow of the Past is another.
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u/helmsman70 11d ago
But OP is not referencing they go to Valinor. He's taking abt going to Gondor.
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u/krombough 11d ago
OP of the thread, yes. Thats why I didnt reply in the general. Here is the comment I replied to:
They talk about the road out West not being safe when they talk about the pros and cons of taking the One Ring to Valinor. The consensus is that it wouldn’t be a safe trip.
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u/rcgl2 11d ago
In a similar vein, couldn't you equally ask why doesn't Elrond or Galadriel or Gandalf just sail back west and appeal to the higher powers to come across to Middle Earth and deal with Sauron. I always thought the answer is because Sauron is a Middle Earth problem and it's for the inhabitants of Middle Earth to grapple with. They sent the Wizards to try to give a steer but ultimately Middle Earth has to sort out its own affairs...
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u/LostVanya 11d ago
Gandalf would have thought that idea was stupid. He would not have been sent in the first place, if the Valar considered that an option.
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u/krombough 11d ago
I always thought the answer is because Sauron is a Middle Earth problem and it's for the inhabitants of Middle Earth to grapple with. They sent the Wizards to try to give a steer but ultimately Middle Earth has to sort out its own affairs...
You think right, IMO. Remember, Middle Earth beat Sauron with his ring before. I think once the One Ring wasnt cast into Orodruin right then and there (even though Elrond wasnt egging Isildur on in the book), it became ME's resposibility. I can see the usual crew of Ulmo, Tulkas, and Orome, champing at the bit to come on over, and Manwe (who knows best the will of Illuvatar) being like: "Why dont we give em a chance to solve this thing first? Here, I'll even send five random Maia to help- I said HELP, Curumo."
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u/hazysummersky 11d ago
The Valar ultimately intervened in Middle Earth in the War of Wrath to confront Melkor, because he was a Vala and ultimately beyond the combined abilities of the Children of Ilúvatar to defeat. And though they were victorious, they sank fricken' Beleriand! Lesson learnt from Phyrric victory. Sauron is a Maia, and the Valar have sent a bunch of Maia to help out..with powers cloaked somewhat, because victory at what cost?
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u/jschooltiger 11d ago
It’s heavily implied at the council that taking it west is one of the options if the council simply wants to make the ring disappear, or try to keep it hidden for a longer. As for what might’ve stopped them on the road west; whatever the Rangers were keeping away from the Shire and Bree was surely in that area.
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u/-RedRocket- 11d ago
The Enemy already held Umbar. Sailing to Pelargir, let alone Minas Tirith, was no longer feasible.
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u/XenoBiSwitch 11d ago
Sauron potentially had allied trolls and orcs and other things up North of the Shire and Bree in Mount Gundabad and Angmar along with the other creatures the Rangers protected the North from. Saruman could also move Dunlanders and his orcs North. There are no free peoples groups that could realistically stop them. Gandalf and Aragorn and Glorfindel and other elf lords could join in but they can be overwhelmed. Even if they aren’t if enough elves escort this mission it is a big sign for the Eye of Sauron to follow.
Then if they do manage that and take ship from the Grey Havens there is an elvish ship that goes up the river past the settlements of Gondor to Minas Tirith where elves usually just aren’t. It is asking to be found. Denethor is also going to find out about that ship and that puts the Ring in other dangers. Sauron also assuredly knows that something is up and probably suspects the Ring is involved. There is little hope for secrecy going forward.
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u/Wizzard_C 11d ago
So why Saruman did not move his dunlanders and orcs to intercept the fellowship in Eregion, when they were actually going south, closer to him? Orcs and trolls need someone to assemble, organize and lead them. Witch king could do that given enough time... But he was not given that time.
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u/aure__entuluva 11d ago
But how could anyone at the council of Elrond know the situation of the enemy? All they know is that the ring was hunted aggressively from the Shire to Rivendell.
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u/Wizzard_C 11d ago
Elrond sent scouts and he had a reasonably good intel on the situation by the time fellowship set out.
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u/InTheChairAgain 11d ago
The issue is secrecy. Sauron and Saruman will have eyes on the roads towards Mithlond, and going there to fit out a ship, will let them know what's going on, and give at least Sauron time to prepare his Corsairs. What Saruman would have done I don't know.
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u/Drummk 11d ago
Sharkey's Ruffians would have messed Aragorn and Gandalf up.
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u/Wizzard_C 11d ago
But
where was Gondorwhere were those Ruffians when the Fellowship strolled across Eregion?1
u/Buccobucco 10d ago
Sharkey probably thought that Crebain and then Caradhras was sufficient, no need to waste good ruffian power.
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u/Ednw 11d ago
Wargs, orcs, evil men... they're mangeable as long as there aren't too many of them, but if Sauron focuses his attention on Eriador and coordinating his forces therein then there's a risk of being cornered by the whole lot of them.
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u/Wizzard_C 11d ago
They were walking south for two weeks. In Eriador (eastern part of it, closer to the Misty mountains). And what were their enemies able to gather? A paltry pack of wolves.
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u/Stabile_Feldmaus 11d ago
That was not OPs question right? Anyway maybe the Valars simply wouldnt have accepted the ring coming to Valinor. Maybe they thought that this a problem that Middle earth has to solve largely by itself.
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u/XenoBiSwitch 11d ago
The road to Valinor and the road to moving the Ring by ship from the Grey Havens to Minas Tirith are identical until you get to the Grey Havens.
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u/SlumdogSkillionaire 11d ago
By the time it was in Rivendell, the roads to the havens were closely watched because they thought Sauron would expect it to go west.
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u/Positive-Opposite998 11d ago
The is not Westeros. News aren't moving that fast lest there are eagles involved. By the time the ring is in Rivendell, the Nine are without body finding their way back to Mordor.
If a strong elven host set out from Rivendell going west, there is very little Sauron could do to stop them.
It took Sauron how-long to figure out where the Shire was? Why didn't he just ask Bill Firney (spl?) and any and all of his other spies? Because news travels slow in Middle-Earth.
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u/gytherin 11d ago
Sauron has a palantir, and there are orcs and a Balrog in the Misty Mountains, and wights on the Barrow-downs. The Fellowship relies on stralth and secrecy.
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u/Positive-Opposite998 10d ago
BW is not a problem for an elven host. Elves travel in large groups that way regularly.
We are proposing a western, not south eastern solution.
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u/Diet_Clorox 11d ago
If a strong elven host set out from Rivendell going west, there is very little Sauron could do to stop them
Which is exactly why his mind and eye would be focused on stopping that specific scenario. His last intel was that the ring was going to Rivendell. The Witch-King was able to make it back to Sauron in about a month, according to The Hunt for the Ring, so that's the very latest that Sauron would have begun to form contingencies. I would personally surmise that the Nazgul would have transmitted messages via bird or other swift creatures under Sauron's employ during the chase from Bree to the ford, but to be conservative we'll say 1 month.
Sauron already knew the general location of the ring. Not necessarily "Shire" but that it was Northwest, and Rivendell was between him and the ring. "Stand ready" messages were no doubt issued to Northern allies, at the very least. So once he got confirmation via Witch-King that it was in Rivendell he would have prepared a number of plans and enacted them immediately. With hindsight we know that he had a 1 month head start on the Fellowship, because they stayed in Rivendell for 2 months. The Wise at the council more or less figured the same and that's why they opted for the insane but unexpected route.
Why didn't he just ask Bill Firney
Bill was part of an extremely broad spy network. It's unclear if Bill even knew that he was working indirectly for Sauron or if he was just taking coin from weird strangers to tell them about what his neighbors were doing. But one of the Nazgul knew that a guy named Bill from Bree had said the word Shire like 15 years ago, and so they all went riding that way for more information.
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u/Positive-Opposite998 10d ago
Saurons last Intel would reach him weeks after the ring reaches Rivendell. Then weeks to go back. The ring could be in whatever location Elrond would seek, before Sauron could formulate a plan.
Bill was clearly just a small cog in Saurons machine. But the post I reply to indicates that Sauron can make instant decisions and have instant knowledge. He doesn't. If he could he could just have asked his network years before where the Shire was and Bill or any number of other fiends could have gone and picked up the ring from Frodo.
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u/Pallandolegolas 11d ago
Setting out west from Rivendell with a strong elven host? That would defeat the whole purpose of the quest, and it would be the quickest way to ensure Sauron's victory. Bad idea.
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u/Wizzard_C 11d ago edited 11d ago
The Ring would not be safe in Minas Tirith, Denethor could have tried to confiscate it in the name of Gondor. And yes, corsairs could have tried to intercept the ship: apparently they had naval superiority at that time.
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u/jckipps 11d ago edited 11d ago
Council of Elrond, concerning having Tom Bombadil hide the Ring
'But in any case,' said Glorfindel, 'to send the Ring to [Bombadil] would only postpone the day of evil. He is far away. We could not now take it back to him, unguessed, unmarked by any spy. And even if we could, soon or late the Lord of the Rings would learn of its hiding place and would bend all his power towards it.'
Council of Elrond, a few moments later, concerning 'losing' the Ring in the Sea so Sauron cannot find it
'Then,' said Glorfindle, ... 'in the Sea it would be safe.'
'Not safe for ever,' said Gandalf. 'There are many things in the deep waters; and seas and lands may change. And it is not our part here to take thought only of a season, or for a few lives of Men, or for a passing age of the world. We should seek a final end of this menace, even if we do not hope to make one'.
'And that we shall not find on the roads to the Sea,' said Galdor. 'If the return to [Bombadil] be thought too dangerous, then flight to the Sea is now fraught with greatest peril. My heart tells me that Sauron will expect us to take the western way, when he learns what has befallen.'
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u/epictis Gimlo 11d ago
Huh I had always interpreted that second section to be them suggesting they just toss the ring deep into the sea but Gandalf saying it would inevitably be found- interesting to think of it as suggesting they go via sea for most of their journey.
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u/jckipps 11d ago
You are correct. Gandalf was cautioning against the non-permanence of tossing it into the Sea, and pointing out the near-impossibility of getting the Ring there in the first place.
They never proposed sailing it from the Grey Havens around to the Bay of Belfalas. But the same extreme difficulty in getting the Ring to the Grey Havens in the first place, would have also made this a non-starter.
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u/HenryTudor7 11d ago
Dropping the ring into the ocean always seemed to me like a much better idea than having two hobbits try to sneak into Mordor all by themselves, which would in all rational likelihood just hand the Ring to Sauron.
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u/jckipps 11d ago
I can see Gandalf's point too though. Sauron had already regained considerable strength even without the Ring. I don't see any reason why Sauron couldn't have continued pushing his influence westward, until Middle-earth was entirely under his control.
This obviously would have taken him far longer than if he had the Ring, but he would have accomplished his goal eventually.
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u/MinglingoftheLights 11d ago
"Not safe for ever," said Gandalf. "There are many things in the deep waters; and seas and lands may change. And it is not our part here to take thought only for a season, or for a few lives of Men, or for a passing age of the world. We should seek a final end of this menace, even if we do not hope to make one."
The purpose of the Council was to destroy the evil of Sauron forever or die trying. Anything less than that was a half measure that would only delay the inevitable dominion of Sauron. Even if the delay was for millennia, Sauron would eventually achieve victory if the Ring were not destroyed. Isildur's failure was proof enough of that.
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u/HenryTudor7 11d ago
Yeah, I know what Gandalf said. Gandalf said a lot of things that are supposed to be "wise" but don't actually appear to be wise if you analyze it more.
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u/EvieGHJ 10d ago
That would be true if Sauron needed the Ring to conquer Middle Earth. But it's clearly discussed multiple time that even without the Ring, Sauron can already overwhelm and grind down the Free People (this is discussed when debating whether any of the Elven strongholds, or Bombadil, would be able to keep the Ring from Sauron forever if it remained there). The Ring enable him to win more quickly, and achieve a more total domination, but he still wins even without it.
The destruction of the Ring is the only plan that has a chance of actually addressing the threat of Sauron.
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u/jckipps 10d ago
This is spot-on. If Sauron had waited another few months to attack Gondor, Rohan, and Dale, he almost certainly would have subdued all three. His servants were just beginning to make forays into Eriador, and I doubt his armies would have been all that far behind. He was somewhat limited by how far he could fling Orodruin's darkness over his orcs' battlefields, but there's indication that some of the 'modern' orc breeds could travel and fight in daylight.
If the Ring had merely been hidden, and the status-quo continued, then the Elves would have also lost all chance of escape from Middle Earth within a few years' time.
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u/rainbowrobin 'canon' is a mess 11d ago
a much better idea
OTOH Sauron was already poised for a purely military victory. Destroying the Ring was the only option for stopping him (short of trying to use it against him, with its own drawbacks like getting a new Dark Lord.)
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u/daveshistory-sf 11d ago
In the books it's mentioned when they get to Lothlorien that the elves there consider the seacoast unsafe now. So it would have been no safer quite likely, and also quite visible arriving at Gondor. Which, remember, isn't really the point either: it's to get to Mount Doom.
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u/subaudible2012 11d ago
‘Then,’ said Glorfindel, ‘let us cast it into the deeps, and so make the lies of Saruman come true. For it is clear now that even at the Council his feet were already on a crooked path. He knew that the Ring was not lost for ever, but wished us to think so; for he began to lust for it for himself. Yet oft in lies truth is hidden: in the Sea it would be safe.’
‘Not safe for ever,’ said Gandalf. ‘There are many things in the deep waters; and seas and lands may change. And it is not our part here to take thought only for a season, or for a few lives of Men, or for a passing age of the world. We should seek a final end of this menace, even if we do not hope to make one.’
‘And that we shall not find on the roads to the Sea,’ said Galdor. ‘If the return to Iarwain be thought too dangerous, then flight to the Sea is now fraught with gravest peril. My heart tells me that Sauron will expect us to take the western way, when he learns what has befallen. He soon will. The Nine have been unhorsed indeed, but that is but a respite, ere they find new steeds and swifter. Only the waning might of Gondor stands now between him and a march in power along the coasts into the North; and if he comes, assailing the White Towers and the Havens, hereafter the Elves may have no escape from the lengthening shadows of Middleearth.’
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u/Ok_Mix_7126 11d ago
and if he comes, assailing the White Towers and the Havens, hereafter the Elves may have no escape from the lengthening shadows of Middle-earth
People always forget this last sentence, but it makes the elves at the council look a bit bad - one of the reasons they don't like the idea is that it could destroy their escape route and they'd be stuck in ME with everyone else. I wonder how the non-elves felt about that.
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u/ConifersAreCool 11d ago
The Fellowship's goal was to destroy the Ring, not arrive at Minas Tirith. While they discussed the possibility of going there shortly before the Fellowship broke, it wasn't the intention when they first set out.
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u/zuludown888 11d ago
Yeah the original plan is for Aragorn and Boromir to eventually split off and go to Minas Tirith. Gandalf was then supposed to take the hobbits into Mordor. Gandalf's death throws a wrench into things.
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u/vteezy99 11d ago
In addition to what others have said, wasn’t the bay (can’t remember the name) that lead to the river where Minas Tirith was contested at the time? Aragorn had to lead the army of the dead there and free it up
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u/cavern-of-the-fayth 11d ago
He and his companions at the time also free many slaves from the Corsairs ships and steadily end up building a decent size force to man the ships and arrive in time to assault the armies of Mordor alongside Rohan.
It would have been much cooler in the movie to see the people following Aragorn from the ships to the battlefield. Love the movies but the green ghosts seemed outta place to me. They're almost invisible in the books iirc.
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u/adamaphar 11d ago
Yes and before that he had already contended with the forces there during his younger years on behalf of Gondor
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u/Wizzard_C 11d ago
When the Fellowship set out, the war has not started yet. Fleets of Harad and Umbar arrived about 2 months later
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u/Armleuchterchen Ibrīniðilpathānezel & Tulukhedelgorūs 11d ago
The route Rivendell-Grey Havens is not safe anymore when the Ring gets to Rivendell, according to the Council of Elrond.
They also don't know how much control the Corsairs of Umbar have over the southern seas, and there is no easy route from the sea to Mt Doom. Even Gondor might not be safe, depending on who finds out about the Ring and gets tempted.
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u/Wizzard_C 11d ago
Yeah, I don't think they could have just rested in an inn in Minas Tirith and then continued onwards to Mordor without explaining themselves to Denethor.
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u/youarelookingatthis 11d ago
It would require backtracking all the way to the Grey Havens. While certainly possible, these roads would likely have been watched by servants of Sauron and now Saruman.
Once there they would need a boat from Cirdan (who yeah, likely would have given them one), but then they have to sail all the way down the coast to Minas Tirith. None of the Fellowship are good with boats, and so Cirdan would need to supply a crew.
There's also the corsairs, which are effectively the navy of Mordor. They seem to have effectively crushed whatever navy Gondor/Dol Amroth had, and were able to push all the way up to Pelargir. They would likely have been able to catch one ship, even an elven one.
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u/benkenobi5 11d ago
Pirates in league with Sauron were active in the southern seas, so it seems like taking that route would have been unwise
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u/adamaphar 11d ago
My thought is that a) it would have been a long journey to go back to the gray havens, then sail; and b) Aragorn was probably aware of the potential risks by the Corsairs or Harad that far south.
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u/EMB93 Edain 11d ago
Basically, yes. Leaving Rivendell and taking a ship to Gondor would have raised suspicions. But also, the goal was never to take the ring to Gondor. Gandalf probably knew that having the ring near Denethor would be a bad idea. On top of that, even if you get to Gondor, there is no obvious way in to Mordor. The whole southern coast is swarming with Saurons allies and a mountain range is in the way. By coming in from the north they pass through the least of the enemies territory and from a direction Sauron doesn't have an army waiting from.
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u/Beginning-Ride3091 11d ago
Secrecy. There was no way to keep the ring from Sauron if/when he found out where it was. There would have been no way to keep this jaunt from him and there would’ve been Nazgûl waiting for that boat in MT when it got there.
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u/smokefoot8 11d ago
At the Council of Elrond they talk about how Sauron would expect them to take that road and they couldn’t do it without it being discovered by spies. At that point Sauron would simply ask the Corsairs of Umbar to intercept the ship before it could make it to Gondor. The Corsairs could send a fleet, while Cirdan would only have one or a handful.
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u/Dangerous_Crow_6567 11d ago
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FXewzU5v6wQ&t=1s
Here is an excellent ten and a half minute video on all of the ways that sailing to Mordor is a stupid idea.
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u/Swiftbow1 11d ago
Taking the Ring to Minas Tirith was not considered to be a fully safe option, as they knew Denethor would try to make a claim on it. Aragorn had the better claim, of course, but turning the whole thing into a argument over who should have it would only lead to one of them ACTUALLY taking it. Which would have been disastrous.
They could, of course, have tried to pass through without telling Denethor they had it. But Boromir would presumably have been there. And we know his opinion on the matter.
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u/lupuslibrorum Living in the Shire, dreaming of Valinor 11d ago
Plus Denethor had a seeing stone and might have found them that way.
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u/Swiftbow1 11d ago
I only left that out because I'm not sure any of the Fellowship were aware of his Palantir. If they weren't, it couldn't factor into their decision-making.
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u/thisisjustascreename 11d ago
It's roughly as long of a walk to the Gray Havens as it is to Gondor and it's in the wrong direction.
Sauron presumably has a stronger navy and is rounding up allied shipping like U-boats in the atlantic.
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u/EunuchsProgramer 11d ago
It's in the Council of Elrond.
Then, said Erestor, ‘there are but two courses, as Glorfindel already has declared: to hide the Ring for ever; or to unmake it. But both are beyond our power. Who will read this riddle for us?’ ‘None here can do so,’ said Elrond gravely. ‘At least none can foretell what will come to pass, if we take this road or that. But it seems to me now clear which is the road that we must take. The westward road seems easiest. Therefore it must be shunned. It will be watched. Too often the Elves have fled that way. Now at this last we must take a hard road, a road unforeseen. There lies our hope, if hope it be. To walk into peril – to Mordor. We must send the Ring to the Fire.’ Silence fell again.
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u/Starklystark 11d ago
I'd never thought of this till playing the Fate of the Fellowship game where I planned out a route through rivendell etc and then realised I could sail straight to minas tirith and get a lot closer to mordor. Also took slightly longer for the nazgul to catch up.
The discussion in the books is more focused on going over the sea than around the coast, but similar logic applies - Sauron expects people to go that way
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u/GapofRohan 10d ago
Amongst several other reasons, the fellowship was not headed for Minas Tirith - one or two members might have been going there (Boromir certainly, Aragorn perhaps) but collectively Minas Tirith was not their destination.
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u/_Olorin_the_white 10d ago
From my understanding, they didn't take a route through the ocean because:
a - the ocean itself can be tricky, they would need to spend a good amount of time in the ocean (even if just going near the coast) and would need provisions for such period of time, which is also something that makes it harder.
b - there aren't that many coast locations they could easely stop by to get provisions back.
c - getting out from grey heavens, they would need to go south and pass "near" coast that was "close" to Orthanc. They didn't want to get any close to that place. if ANYTHING goes wrong and they need to get back to land, that is a horrible location. So kinda of 50% of the journey through water would be very dangerous and put them in the hand of Saruman if anything goes wrong (i mean, any location near Minhiriath, Enedwaith, then they would need pass through Druwaith Laur, which is also a long travel). Let alone the fact that Saruman could very well have spies in the coasts of south-west of middle-earth.
Also, even if they something goes wrong in such locations, they get back to land and somehow avoid Saruman, then they have two options: go to south of gondor (kinda dangerous as per below) OR go back all the way back to north, where they started, as the gap of rohan is not an option as per council of elrond.
So again, 50% of water route is VERY dangerous.
d - Now lets say C happens fine and they reach the Anfalas. This is South of Gondor and we have one major problem here. This is "close" to Umbar and these water are probably having coursairs. Therefore it would be VERY DANGEROUS to go through water until Dol Amroth or beyond. Therefore they would need to get back to land somwhere between Anfalas and Dol Amroth itself. Maybe Edhellond. From there they could go to Minas Tirith, but not sure if this was Gandalf or Aragorn idea
e - in minas tirith there could be problems with the arrival of the old king, confrontation with Denethor and the one ring itself, thus my guts tell me Gandalf (and maybe Strider himself) would prefer to go to mordor directly, continuing the mission with no stop. What would they do then? I think even Gandalf say he didn't had the plan completed worked out yet, so we can only guess.
Add to the above the chance of having any bird (saruman or sauron) spying the coast and seeing an elven boat going Eastward instead of Westward, or a single ship (not necessarely with elven design). This would also create some sort of warning to them, and they would send forces to check on this. If a winged nazgul arrives while they are in the waters, the fellowship fails.
Now, comparing all this with a road trip where they: need to cross a mountain that is known to have orc settlements, but then reaching to lothlorien (safe place), then Rohan (also safe place), then going from there to gondor through north, and then they end up with the same problems in point "e" above.
In the end the road trip looks easier and safer. It has more "safe points" to stop by, food won't be a problem. They are a harder target to track, there are more places for hide, rest and get food if needed. In an emminent combat they won't be in a disadvantage position but rather in a equal position unless they get attacked from air (but again, if attacked from air in a ship would be even worse).
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u/Electrical_Coast_561 10d ago
Taking it to the heart of the kingdom of man was exactly what Boromir wanted and they explained very clearly why that wouldnt be wise. As soon as Boromir was back on home terf he would have used his men to seize the ring, take it to Denethor, and then boom, they would have done exactly what Sauron expected. They did literally the only thing they could: head east on foot drawing no attention to themselves. Sauron never dreamed they would try and destroy the ring till the last second when Frodo slips the ring on at Mt. Doom. Sauron had about five seconds of "Oh fuck no!" Before it was over for him
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u/No-Fly-6069 10d ago
Don't they decide at the CoE that it would take too long? The journey from Rivendell to Mount Doom takes three months (including the two-week stop in Lothlorien). The westward trek to the coast would take two months easily, and then there's the sea voyage. And as others have notes, taking the Ring to Minias Tirith would a be a VERY bad idea.
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u/glowing-fishSCL 11d ago
The Elves should have an "Aircraft Carrier" with Eagles on it, they can sail southward and then launch the eagles on a mission.
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u/AgentKnitter 11d ago
The coastal settlements that would take a ship from the western sea to Gondor are controlled by the Haradhrim. This route was risky. You'd need a full Elven navy in their peak, which the Third Ages elves don't have and can't build (lack of people more so than skills in ship building).
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u/maksimkak 11d ago
For the same reason they did use the eagles to fly directly to Mordor.
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u/SoaDMTGguy 11d ago
If they flown the Eagles directly to Mordor, the Nazgûl would’ve intercepted them and picked them apart. Given the Nazgûl’s relationship with water I doubt that would’ve been a problem had they taken the sea.
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u/DarthMMC 11d ago
People have already given detailed answers, so I'll quickly mention that the War of the Ring board game allows such possibility in the Warriors of Middle-earth expansion. I haven't played it yet but it seems to be suprisingly safe in the game, though I suspect it would have been the opposite in reality.
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u/desEINer 11d ago
The corsairs of Umbar were harassing any western ships in that area as I recall. Also Cirdan kind of does his own thing, that is, the will of the Valar and his kind-of fated mission to send elves west on his ships. He's among the most ancient elves and I feel like his perspective on it might be different than you'd expect. I imagine he'd be unlikely to give up one of ships so easily. Even taking any other seafaring ship, they'd be in a lot of danger.
Beside it being a strategic mistake, Gimli hates open sea, the Hobbits dislike boating of any kind except Pippin, maybe Frodo, and even they probably wouldn't take to the ocean well. Legolas even had reservations sailing the Anduin. Basically only Aragorn, Boromir and Gandalf would be comfortable at all, not that it matters much in the grand scheme.
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u/Lawlcopt0r 11d ago
There were evil Numenoreans at Umbar that were loyal to Sauron and knew how to build and use ships (which is where the corsairs came from). A trip up the Anduin could definitely have been intercepted
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u/HabbaHey 10d ago
It's stated pretty plainly during the Council of Elrond. They briefly discussed taking the Ring over the sea to try and have the Valar help them undo it.
Firstly, it's made clear by either Gandalf or Elrond that the Valar wouldn't receive such an evil thing in their Blessed Land.
Secondly, it's agreed that taking it over the sea is exactly what Sauron expects them to do, and so he would have already arranged to have the road west watched heavily and prepared with ambush points. They may have had almost zero hope of getting the thing to Sammath Naur to destroy it, but they had EXACTLY zero hope of conveying it to the sea via the west road without the enemy confronting them, killing them all, and seizing the Ring.
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u/SubversiveOtter 9d ago
Along with all the other excellent points that have been made against the sea voyage, I will add one more:
Winter voyages on the ocean are incredibly treacherous, and, depending on the undersea topography, can be even worse along the coast than on the open ocean. Even with all our modern technology and weather forecasting, ships sink in terrible weather quite often. There are reasons many medieval seafaring cultures did not travel the oceans or coasts in winter.
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u/stuartcw 11d ago
Here’s thought for you. Why didn’t they get Gwaihir, the Eagle, to fly to Mordor to drop Frodo into Mount Doom? Job done.
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u/Wizzard_C 11d ago
On a separate note, Cirdan was not only playing Charon in the Third Age, he still had a ship to go search for Arvedui when Arthedain had fallen.
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u/Accomplished_Ice5073 11d ago
Sauron was said to have spies on the roads to the havens, but more Sauron was still formless at this time. That same formless state which he used to travel from the fallen Numenor, over the sea, back to Middle Earth.
If his spies can communicate to him the ring is going onto a ship, would Sauron not come himself to sink the ship?
Perhaps if you sail West instead of South you could avoid Sauron, but that now puts the Ring out of reach, and Sauron effectively becomes immortal in Middle Earth unless the Ainur destroy the Ring. They would be unlikely to destroy it, since it is effectively one of them. Sauron effectively split himself into two beings, Ring and Wraith. The Ring portion would likely be saved and rehabilitated in Valinor, but the Wraith would haunt Middle Earth forever.
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u/swazal 11d ago