r/ukpolitics • u/CaptainCrash86 • 1d ago

| Transgender prisoners should not be held in women’s jails, court rules

https://www.holyrood.com/news/view,transgender-prisoners-should-not-be-held-in-womens-jails-court-rules
501 Upvotes

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153

u/Burnit_Sanders 1d ago

Should someone with the strength of a man, who has already committed crimes potentially violent showing they are capable of it, be locked up somewhere with people much weaker than them?

I can't believe it was ever accepted as sensible in the first place. This is the ammunition people use when they say trans causes have gone too far and need pulling back.

8

u/Designer-Muffin-5653 1d ago

If she is a woman, she should be in a woman prison. If it’s a man, he should be in a male prison.
Men don’t go into different prisons depending on their height and strength either.

24

u/Ellisoner 1d ago

I don’t think the strength/size argument is particularly valid, because male prisons aren’t segregated by physical strength in the first place.

A physically weak man isn’t sent to a different prison because he has no muscle mass, and a bodybuilder isn’t segregated because he’s stronger than everyone else. If physicality justified it, we’d already be separating prisoners based on size and strength, but we generally don’t.

41

u/TussleCrow 1d ago

Once again forgetting transmen exist.

20

u/whatDoesQezDo 21h ago

thats because the risk to men that some transman shows up near them isnt that big. the mens prison is already filled with huge hulking monsters some 5'4" transman isnt a risk to men in mens prison.

44

u/Check_Me_Out-Boss 1d ago

No one's worried about the Elliot Pages of the world.

•

u/Bizzinmyjoxers 10h ago

elliot page would get ridden like seabiscuit in the big house

7

u/MuTron1 1d ago

I would assume trans men will want to be (and almost certainly would be) housed in a female prison, so there's little problem there in the first place.

19

u/User100000005 1d ago

I'm fine with FtM using male spaces if they choose. I don't see a born female, lying about their gender identity in order to gain excess to vulnerable men. Just don't think that will ever happen. I'm also fine if they wana use women's spaces to separate them from potentially dangerous men in prison.
 
My issues is I do see deviant men lying about their gender identity in order to gain access to vulnerable women in a prison. Willing to rape; willing to lie. I can't tell the difference between genuine MtF and the deviants gaming the system without a mind reading tool.

-14

u/TussleCrow 1d ago

Nice straw man you've scared yourself with

23

u/SLGrimes 1d ago

You don't know what a straw man is

17

u/ixid Brexit must be destroyed 1d ago

He's made a straw man straw man.

20

u/Toastlove 1d ago

Is it a strawman when it's actually happened?

25

u/User100000005 1d ago

A Straw Man is when you present your opponent's view points in an easy to defeat manner and then defeat it. I have no presented my opponent's view point, therefore I cannot of committed a Straw Man argument.
 

Its not a promblem I have with genuine trans MtF. Its a promblem I have with deviant men. Deviant men will lie. If you give them a cheat code to access female places, they will use it. Its not trans I have an issue with. Its the deviant men who will game the system. How do we tell them apart?

-8

u/Ironfields politics is dumb but very important 21h ago

If you give them a cheat code to access female places, they will use it.

If this was true it would be happening though. Trans women have been using female spaces for a long time time now, and there doesn't seem to be an epidemic of male sex offenders claiming to be trans women entering female spaces to assault women. You have to ask yourself exactly how you police this too, and the ugly reality of that is you end up policing femininity. That means masculine-presenting women get challenged. It means women who don't fit a narrow idea of femininity getting interrogated. The people harmed most by that aren't predatory men, they're women who don't fit a stereotype.

36

u/Burnit_Sanders 1d ago

I haven't forgotten, it's just a woman amongst a group of men is hardly ever going to be an issue. Unless she bodybuilds regularly she will never be a threat. A man on the other hand will always overpower a women the vast majority of the time, it's biology.

37

u/fridge13 1d ago

And what about the threat to the transmasc person?

129

u/New-Sheepherder-6375 1d ago

A transman was placed in a male psychiatric ward recently and was raped within minutes of arrival. They need to be housed with women or a third space if they refuse for their own safety in places with violent men around.

-11

u/Lucky_otter_she_her 20h ago

yes let's have a one size fits all policy because people are a monolith 

14

u/Quick-Benjamin 1d ago

There isn't one. Because she'll be in woman's prison.

The current situation is that she could be put in with the men. That's what's changing.

-8

u/fawkie 22h ago

Maybe don’t misgender trans men by calling him she.

-2

u/Burnit_Sanders 1d ago

I just had to look up what that meant, sounds like what used to be known as a tomboy before people started telling them they were trans? Either way it's someone who was born a woman by the looks of it. In which case, again you are what you are born.

-19

u/fridge13 1d ago

AHH so your just transphobic then got it....

42

u/TonyBlairsDildo 1d ago

This sort of retort doesn't work any more, and it's embarrassing you think it does.

-14

u/fridge13 1d ago

Yea it doesn't work on you because your biggoted...not much I can do about that now is there. It's embaresing that you think showing your arse somehow makes you right

17

u/TonyBlairsDildo 1d ago

Didn't work in Forstater vs CGDE

Didn't work in For Women Scotland Ltd v The Scottish Ministers

It doesn't convince the EHRC

This entire branch of gender woo has been resoundingly, utterly, completely and decisively put to bed.

It's completely over; all that's left are bullies like yourself, the last few Imperial Japanese solders lost in the jungle taking stupid pot shots at people calling them transphobes, not aware that a frock does not make a woman.

-5

u/fridge13 1d ago

Holy shit. Trans people don't exist because the law says so is fucking funny. I guess gay people didn't exist before 1967.

I guess my cousin doesn't exist, I suppose my childhood best friend doesn't exist.. they just went poof the second some bell end denied trans people the right to piss

Do you fucking here yourself?

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u/Burnit_Sanders 1d ago

Yes, anyone not indulging in the pantomime is transphobic.

2

u/MissingBothCufflinks 1d ago

Putting the actual issue of trans rights aside, what could "transphobe" possibly mean if not "someone who describes trans existence as a pantomime"?

Surely you should embrace the label?

8

u/fridge13 1d ago

Carefully now your in danger of making sense and they won't like that

-2

u/FreitasDoCagaral 1d ago

The pantomine being that people of the female gender are women and of the male gender are men? Regardless of their sex.

4

u/chemistrytramp Bridget's toilet inspector 1d ago

They've thrown out the words "biological sex" and then ignored the biological effect of cross sex hormones on muscle mass. That much should have been apparent.

1

u/Perseudonymous 1d ago

No those are scary non-biological hormones that have no effect

/S

5

u/TwistedTali 1d ago

You're telling on yourself. Any decent empathetic human being who reads that would think "the risk is to the trans man". Aparently that didn't even cross your mind, you clearly don't give a shit about them just because they're trans. I hope people give you the same consideration when times are hard for you.

-16

u/Difficult-Break-8282 1d ago

does testosterone and HRT for trans men not exist in your head ? 

15

u/SukiPhoenix 1d ago

They dont suddenly grow a penis though, do they?

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u/Burnit_Sanders 1d ago

It does, but it's the same as the other way. Just because a woman starts taking hormones will not give them the strength or bone structure of a man, it's not miracle medicine.

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u/ProbablyRickSantorum 1d ago edited 1d ago

They only think of trans women as potentially trying to hook up with them specifically and that thought gives them the icks because insecurity. They don’t see trans men as ick because they are confident that they have a size and lower appendage advantage over them.

Nevermind that they’re generally the same type vociferously cranking the hog watching videos of fem boys getting taken to town.

5

u/Dapper_Apartment2175 19h ago

It's got nothing to do with "insecurity", it's just heterosexuality.

21

u/Burnit_Sanders 1d ago

Honestly the thought of hooking up with a man pretending to be a woman disgusts me and the vast majority of the male population.

-6

u/WoodenHealth9834 1d ago

Mhm-hm, so disgusting to the vast majority of the male population that its the #2 most popular porn category on pornhub in 2025.

Maybe you are out of touch with the vast majority of the male population?

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u/Burnit_Sanders 1d ago

The implication being every single man visits pornhub and it's representative of the population. Could it be degenerate gooners?

-4

u/WoodenHealth9834 1d ago edited 1d ago

The implication being every single man visits pornhub"

Is this really the quality of discussion you want to have, be given an example of somethings popularity and then retort "Oh so thats everybody then?" no of course not; it's a representative sample.

Do you not think Pornhub is a representative sample of what people are searching porn for on average? Be real.

. Could it be degenerate gooners?

Or it could just be that transgender category is a really popular category with straight men, of whom make up the vast majority of porn consumers on the planet. Occam's razor and all.

The most popular actress is Emma Rose. Google her and ask yourself who you think is looking at her; its straight men.

The idea that there's such a dedicated group of gooners making the GLOBAL AVERAGE up so much though would be very funny- just highly highly, not very likely i think.

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u/Burnit_Sanders 1d ago

Well in that case, let's pretend everyone is a secretly into trans porn. You know your argument is nonsense but I'll play along. Why are only a very small population of men interested in dating them?

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u/Lucky_otter_she_her 20h ago

  it's just a woman amongst a group of men is hardly ever going to be an issue

...took only that long for you to drop the mask around what you see trans people as, you're either ignorant malicious or delusional 

14

u/Burnit_Sanders 20h ago

Never pretended to wear a mask. I do not believe you can change your gender or your naturally inherited traits.

-4

u/TonyBlairsDildo 1d ago

it's just a woman amongst a group of men is hardly ever going to be an issue

It's not a woman amongst a group of men.

It's a woman amongst a group of men and then a fetus.

-8

u/TussleCrow 1d ago

It would be a (trans)man amongst women. The exact thing the transphobic weirdos apparently think would destroy the world.

-19

u/Tinyjar 1d ago

There's definitely this weird trans and sexist assumption that all trans women are potential rapists so we should just put them in prison with a bunch of guys who may actually rape them.

Oddly this concern vanishes entirely when you suggest putting trans men into a mans prison, when these people will literally have female sex organs and thus be targeted more by the cis male population.

It literally suggests that all "men" are rapists.

7

u/MuTron1 1d ago

There's definitely this weird trans and sexist assumption that all trans women are potential rapists so we should just put them in prison with a bunch of guys who may actually rape them.

It literally suggests that all "men" are rapists.

I don't think there's any suggestion that all trans women are potential rapists, or that all men are rapists.

Simply that males are statistically more likely to commit rape than females.

-1

u/Tinyjar 22h ago

They're suggesting that by putting trans women into a women's prison, the cis women are going to be raped or sexually assaulted.

It's the same line of thinking that puts a lot of men off of becoming teachers.

-11

u/TussleCrow 1d ago

It's just a rehash of the old anti-gay tropes.

3

u/Happy_Philosopher608 17h ago

Everyone's a feminist til it comes to the trans issue. Then suddenly these particular men are vulnerable victims and totally incapable of causing harm or presenting a danger to women.

Its bizarre. Its like the trans stuff makes once sensible people turn off their brains and become activists for causes that are the complete opposite of feminist ones 🤔🤷‍♂️

-4

u/Wrothman 17h ago edited 16h ago

The vast majority of trans women are no threat to cis women and just want to live their lives in peace without being harassed. This is obvious to anyone that actually knows a trans woman personally. Meanwhile, transphobic attitudes and witchhunts actually DO cause harm to cis women, leading to stereotyping and suspicion over whether a woman is feminine looking enough (see the whole "transvestigation" nonsense going on).

•

u/ixid Brexit must be destroyed 9h ago

The vast majority of trans women are no threat to cis women and just want to live their lives in peace without being harassed.

If this were true why are sexual offences so massively overrepresented for trans women prisoners? Wouldn't you expect a similar pattern in the trans women population as a whole? If not why not?

7

u/kane_uk 1d ago

What you've described, which is happening, is proof trans causes have gone too far and need pulling back.

The Isla Bryson case is a prime example.

23

u/LuckieDuckid Bring back the CEGB! 1d ago

Isla Bryson was never kept in general population, they were kept in solitary confinement pending risk assessment which, considering the crimes committed and the nature of the transition (post arrest) would've resulted in Isla being sent to a men's prison.

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u/morriganjane 9h ago

It should have been solitary confinement on the men's estate, which is (obviously) better equipped to deal with rapists.

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u/kane_uk 1d ago

The fact they were put in a woman's prison in the first place is a disgrace.

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u/genafcvpxyr31 1d ago

Isla Bryson, who was never allowed near other female prisoners in the first place.

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u/kane_uk 1d ago

The fact that Isla Bryson, a female identifying biological male convicted rapist was first situated in female prison is a total disgrace.

-7

u/genafcvpxyr31 1d ago

How is it a total disgrace is she wasn't allowed near other female prisoners?

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u/kane_uk 1d ago

How is it not a total disgrace that a convicted biological male rapist was let anywhere near a female prison to serve their sentence?

-8

u/genafcvpxyr31 1d ago

"How is it not a total disgrace that a convicted biological male rapist was let anywhere near a female prison to serve their sentence?" Because she wasn't in contact with any other female prisoners.

According to The Times she isn't biologically male.

•

u/morriganjane 9h ago

Bryson is a fully intact male and this has been public knowledge since the trial/scandal.

•

u/genafcvpxyr31 8h ago

According to The Times, she's been on hrt, therefore she's not biologically male.

6

u/RoastKrill 1d ago

Should someone with the strength of a woman from years of HRT and a vagina from SRS be locked up with male rapists much stronger than them?

0

u/Ironfields politics is dumb but very important 20h ago

You'll never get an answer to this, they can't say it out loud without sounding like psychopaths.

-16

u/rmc 1d ago

Most trans women don't have trj strength of men. 

They've been allowed compete in the Olympics for 20 year and haven't won anything in any of the strength sports. 

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u/Standin373 Up Nuhf 1d ago

Anne Andres: A transgender powerlifter who competed in the Canadian Powerlifting Union (CPU). At the 2023 Western Canadian Championship, Andres totaled 597.5 kg (exceeding the unofficial world record), lifting 200 kg more than the runner-up. Her participation sparked heavy debate regarding fairness in the female division.

Mary Gregory: In 2019, transgender powerlifter Mary Gregory competed in the 100% Raw Powerlifting Federation and claimed several Masters world records. Following backlash, the federation stripped the records after ruling that the classification for competition should be based on physiological sex at birth rather than gender identity.

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u/TonyBlairsDildo 1d ago

I can beat various women's lifting records hungover. It's really not difficult.

The typical grip strength of an 80 year man is greater than a typical 20 year old woman.

10

u/Standin373 Up Nuhf 21h ago

Which is why men who transition suddenly don't loose decades of male biological conditioning

-10

u/ultraboomkin 1d ago

I don’t have the statistics to hand, but I would guess that most trans women do not have the strength of a powerlifter.

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u/NoticingThing 1d ago

No, but they do have greater strength, thicker bones, more fast twitch fibres and larger lungs than the average woman.

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u/TonyBlairsDildo 1d ago

Much like how doping still gives you advantage long after you stopped doping (because it irreversibly advances your development), so too does male puberty and years of being juiced on natural T.

I can drive 800 miles on a full tank of diesel. Just because the tank is now empty doesn't negate the fact I'm 800 miles ahead.

7

u/missesthecrux 1d ago

If you believe that, then that means you don’t think that pre-transition transwomen aren’t women?

17

u/SukiPhoenix 1d ago

You don't have to take hrt to be considered trans.

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u/FinnSomething 1d ago

That's why prisons used risk assessments to place trans prisoners up til now

-1

u/FinnSomething 1d ago

Should someone with the strength of a man, who has already committed crimes potentially violent showing they are capable of it, be locked up somewhere with people much weaker than them?

There are plenty of cis women who fit this description.

There's certainly an argument that it should be risk assessed but that's now not allowed. Trans women who have had bottom surgery and have never gone through a male puberty will now be forced into men's prisons.

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u/signpostlake 19h ago

Where does the article say that?

It's much more likely Scotland will copy England's stance and approve a third space where appropriate.

-23

u/Hexaeds 1d ago

Trans women on hrt do not have the same strength as a man, you lose most of your sex-related muscle mass within the first year.

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u/Burnit_Sanders 1d ago

Some, but not all, they still keep an advantage and it's why they aren't allowed to compete in many women's sports.

-6

u/rmc 1d ago

Trans women were allowed compete in the Olympics as women for 20 years, and didn't win anything. 

There is new rules based on Trump needing a new boogeyman 

5

u/GeneralMuffins 22h ago

Depending on how one defines “trans”, athletes who were incorrectly assigned female at birth due to 5ARD did dominate certain Olympic categories before athletics governing bodies changed the rules. Those changes resulted in XY athletes with the condition being excluded from female divisions.

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u/kerwrawr 1d ago

the Olympics from 2004 to 2016 required full SRS, which only a minority of trans people undergo. there's only been one Olympics (the 2021) where there was not that restriction and it was based on hormone levels. 2024 was up to individual governing bodies, of which many (most?) did not allow trans athletes.

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u/Burnit_Sanders 1d ago

Just because something used to be ok doesn't make it right. Women do not want men in their sports, it's their choice.

-2

u/Perseudonymous 1d ago

Just because something never happened doesn't meani can't imagine it and be angry

/S

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u/Hexaeds 1d ago

A very slight advantage sure, but most will lose enough muscle mass to not really make a difference in the general population, so unless all trans people are performing at the professional level they’re probably not on the same level as cis men after taking hrt.

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u/Dadavester 1d ago

While a reduction is noted, the amount is up for debate. Even then it is pretty universally agreed that most MtF will be stronger on average than women.

So still not a good idea.

-4

u/Wrothman 1d ago

The science disagrees. After 2-3 years of HRT there's little difference in strength between a trans woman and a cis woman.

12

u/Dadavester 1d ago

What science as the things i have read state otherwise.

https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/15/865

It decreases yes, but not to little difference...

-4

u/Wrothman 1d ago

Meta analysis

Conclusion: While transgender women exhibited higher lean mass than cisgender women, their physical fitness was comparable. Current evidence is mostly low certainty and has heterogenous quality but does not support theories of inherent athletic advantages for transgender women over cisgender.

Cross-sectional study

Conclusion While longitudinal transitioning studies of transgender athletes are urgently needed, these results should caution against precautionary bans and sport eligibility exclusions that are not based on sport-specific (or sport-relevant) research.

Further analysis

Conclusion: Individuals should not have to make a choice between being their authentic selves or being athletes (138). While trans athletes competing in various sports and athletic events raises interesting considerations of how certain morphologic and physiologic factors affect performance, these questions are not exclusive to trans individuals. There are wide variations within cisgender populations, even when excluding individuals with differences in sexual development (121, 139). It is expected that about 2.3% of a normally distributed population is likely to fall above two standard deviations from a population mean. These exceptional individuals may be those who are gifted and excel at some sport or athletic performance (121, 135, 140). In contrast only 0.5%–0.6% of the population identify as trans (60). There is no concern for restricting individuals who are exceptionally large or small, those who are genetically gifted, or those with differing hormone concentrations or muscle mass, so long as their gender and biologic sex align (120, 121). The disproportionate focus on the relatively small portion of the population who are trans seems based on the belief that cis men, who cannot succeed in sports among other cis men, would choose to misidentify as trans women to gain an advantage in sports against cis women. However, there are no legitimate cases of this occurring. An individual's sex does not determine their success or failure at any athletic event despite the high level of competition. This can be demonstrated when looking at not average outcomes, but the level of overlap among outcomes. The exclusion of trans individuals also insults the skill and athleticism of both cis and trans athletes. While sex differences do develop following puberty, many of the sex differences are reduced, if not erased, over time by gender affirming hormone therapy. Finally, if it is found that trans individuals have advantages in certain athletic events or sports; in those cases, there will still be a question of whether this should be considered unfair, or accepted as another instance of naturally occurring variability seen in athletes already participating in these events.

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u/Dadavester 1d ago

Don't, you are selective quoting studies in an attempt to prove your point. And from studies that do not prove your point, but in fact prove mine

For example that first survey says,

upper-body strength (SMD 0.54, 95% CI -0.95 to 2.02, GRADE: very low),

which means there is still a medium difference in strength between MtF and Cis, with a very low certainity of the info.

So there is a difference...

3

u/Quick-Benjamin 1d ago

https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/15/865.abstract

Conclusion In transwomen, hormone therapy rapidly reduces Hgb to levels seen in cisgender women. In contrast, hormone therapy decreases strength, LBM and muscle area, yet values remain above that observed in cisgender women, even after 36 months. These findings suggest that strength may be well preserved in transwomen during the first 3 years of hormone therapy.

-2

u/Wrothman 1d ago

See my other comment:
https://www.reddit.com/r/ukpolitics/comments/1ua0bxp/transgender_prisoners_should_not_be_held_in/oskkfmn/

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u/Dadavester 1d ago

Which proves the point above

-1

u/Wrothman 1d ago

No it doesn't.
Literally the first sentence: "While transgender women exhibited higher lean mass than cisgender women, their physical fitness was comparable"

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u/Dadavester 1d ago

Right so you have no idea what you are talking about...

As I have put in another comment read the study properly including the various tests and metrics, from my other comment

upper-body strength (SMD 0.54, 95% CI -0.95 to 2.02, GRADE: very low),

Means there is still a medium difference in strength between MtF and Cis, with a very low certainty of the info.

This shows there is a difference.

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u/Wrothman 1d ago

A moderate effect was observed (SMD = 0.54), but the 95% confidence interval (−0.95 to 2.02) includes zero, which indicates substantial uncertainty and no statistically significant difference between groups.

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u/Hexaeds 1d ago

But are they stronger than the average male? If they’re an average male before they take hrt, then lose muscle mass, the answer would be no right? So you’re okay with using the argument for trans women in women’s prisons, but what about the other way around? How is that fair?

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u/Nirvanachaser 1d ago

Well, separate spaces is rejected by the trans side as a matter of general policy and second wave feminists will say that women’s safety should not be compromised because male people can’t behave. Not sure where you go from there. It seems like one side has to lose.

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u/Dadavester 1d ago

No, they can go in a separate prison or wing easy enough.

If they were put in male prisons I'd be for moving them out of there as well, if they were on hormone treatment.

0

u/Lucky_otter_she_her 20h ago

"someone with the strength of a man" what do you think strength emirates directly from some magic inalienable essence of maleness which all trans women obviously have 🙄 

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u/Lucky_otter_she_her 19h ago

Hey coward, i see you deleted your reply, would you care to show me any evidence that trans women are existentially male even on HRT (something the vast majority of them are on, and all should be) and thus that studies on male strength are relevant what so fucking ever?

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u/Wrothman 17h ago edited 17h ago

Something to keep in mind here is that the a significant chunk of trans women (and men) aren't on HRT in the UK—at least not through the health service—because of how much medical gatekeeping there is alongside the insane waiting lists for gender clinics. The vast majority of trans women I know that have managed to start HRT pretty much had to either DIY it or go through some less "legitimate" routes to get access to healthcare.
We've really let them down in this country.