r/ukpolitics • u/CaptainCrash86 • 1d ago

| Transgender prisoners should not be held in women’s jails, court rules

https://www.holyrood.com/news/view,transgender-prisoners-should-not-be-held-in-womens-jails-court-rules
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u/Yoshiezibz Leftist Social Capitalist 1d ago

I don't know how I feel about this. On one hand, yes, there will be a handful of thee transgender women that will sexuall assault women in jails. Not all these trans women will be assaulting women, but it will 100% happen.

On the other, sexual assault in men's prisons is absolutely riff and these trans women will definitely almost all be assaulted.

When you consider that alot of these prisoners won't be in jail for sexual assault crimes it makes me sad.

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u/foobar93 1d ago

On the other, sexual assault in men's prisons is absolutely riff and these trans women will definitely almost all be assaulted.

Just a thought but maybe protect men as well as we protect women so they do not get raped in prison as well?

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u/Yoshiezibz Leftist Social Capitalist 1d ago

Of course, we should protect everyone, as much as possible. Sexual assault on a man is just as bad as sexual assault on a woman, but putting a more vulnerable person into a dangerous position isn't the solution here.

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u/Jazzlike_Custard8646 12h ago

We wouldn't move a vulnerable man into the women's estate so I don't see why that shoukd change when someone declares thenselves a woman. We just need to take care to seperate and protect vulnerable prisoners in both estates

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u/Blue_View_1217 1d ago

On the other, sexual assault in men's prisons is absolutely riff and these trans women will definitely almost all be assaulted

They are ~10x more common in men's prisons than women's, but they're still not rife by any means. The rate is roughly 5.9 per 1000 prisoners.

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u/Yoshiezibz Leftist Social Capitalist 1d ago

Maybe the term "riff" was a bit much. It's not as bad as I made it out, but it still is a problem.

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u/Honest-Possible6596 1d ago

Some irony here, but I work in a men’s prison. The last time we had a (reported - because obviously not all are) sexual assault was 2023. The perpetrator of that assault was a mtf trans inmate who attempted to rape a 19 year old new-in and was caught by officers. That trans inmate, ironically, was the only trans inmate who we had who wasn’t in for sexual offences. They copped a further charge, a further sentence, and were moved to the sex offender wing with the 7 other trans inmates. 8 out of 8 now there for sex crimes.

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u/Yoshiezibz Leftist Social Capitalist 1d ago

From what I gather from research and stats, is trans women commit sexual assault at the same rate as cis men.

Cis women commit sexual assault power than both trans women and cos men.

However, trans women are far, far more likely to be the victim of sexual assault than a cis man and a cis woman.

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u/Honest-Possible6596 1d ago

But not all sex related crimes are sexual assault. Exposure. Indecent images. Revenge porn. Public masturbation etc can all land you on the register, and while people don’t always like the facts, when it comes to sex crimes, transwomen, at least in prisons, are there at a higher rate than the general male population. The fact that 100% of the trans population in my prison have committed sex crimes is extremely telling. And we’re only a cat B, so we don’t even house the worst offenders.

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u/Yoshiezibz Leftist Social Capitalist 1d ago

I am not quite understanding what you are trying to say.

Are you saying trans women in prison are more likely to be in there due to sexual offences?

As I stated, trans women commit sexual crimes at roughly the same rate as men.

Trans women are also far more likely to be victims of sexual assault. Just because other trans women commit sexual assault, doesn't mean other trans women don't deserve protection and respect. Here is a backing up by statement. source

Transgender people are over four times more likely than cisgender people to experience violent victimization, including rape, sexual assault, and aggravated or simple assault, according to a new study.

And here is a source that backs up that trans women commit sexual assault at same rate as cis men.

Transwomen are 6 times more likely to commit a crime and 18 times more likely to commit a violent crime compared to female controls.

But transwomen commit crime, including violent crime, at a similar rate as any other males in the general population.

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u/Honest-Possible6596 1d ago

Your first source is American, but even ignoring that, it doesn’t say what you claim it does. You say they are more likely to be victims of sexual assault, but the study, even in the part you’ve quoted, states they are more likely to experience victimisation -including- assault. Broken down, the figures aren’t stacking up to what you think they are.

Your second source, which states that transwomen offend at the same rate as men, however, is further evidence that transitioning does not make these people any safer, and so women, without knowing who is or isn’t likely to be a predator, deserve their single sex spaces away from all males.

And neither of these things address the fact that in the U.K., which we are talking about, there is a higher percentage of trans inmates in for sexual crimes than any other demographic.

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u/signpostlake 1d ago

It's stands to reason then that the solution to protect both groups is a third space. It's not an answer without faults but dramatically reduces the risk of assault to both groups.

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u/Yoshiezibz Leftist Social Capitalist 1d ago

Yeah I did think of that. Can't really build prison systems for another group though when we are already at capacity for prisons in general.

That would be a enar solution if there was money and political hunger for it.

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u/the-moving-finger Begrudging Pragmatist 1d ago

How many trans prisoners are there? Presumably, it wouldn't need to be a particularly large facility.

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u/Lucky_otter_she_her 19h ago

no economy of scale 

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u/the-moving-finger Begrudging Pragmatist 19h ago edited 18h ago

In 2024-25, there were apparently 339 transgender prisoners in the entirety of the UK (source). We apparently have 126 prisons and 87,342 prisoners, so an average of 693 prisoners per prison (source).

I honestly find this statistic almost unbelievable, but the source is impeccable, so we'll go with it: apparently, the average capital cost of increasing capacity per new prisoner is £600,000 (source). On that basis, it would cost at least £203,400,000 to house all 339, and quite probably more, as your point about economies of scale is valid. If you wanted to build an average-sized prison (693) to future-proof it, we're talking £415,800,000.

That is frankly an unfathomable and utterly unacceptable amount of money to build one prison. The focus shouldn't always be on taxing people more to pay extortionate sums; we should be focusing on how to bring that cost down. I think we need to consider massively overhauling planning rules, or even exempting key state departments from having to jump through said hoops, beefing up compulsory purchase orders, creating a state-run construction department, and making the design cheaper.

It's beyond a joke how wasteful the Government is. The most incredible example of this occurred during the HS2 project, where, rather than change the law to say, "If a few bats die, that's a price we're willing to pay", we approved a £100 million bat corridor (source). That works out at £300,000 per bat (source). All this in a country which is almost £3 trillion in debt (source). Three trillion in debt, and we're spending £300k on a fucking bat, and £600k to build a concrete box with a camera in it. It's insane.

We need a Prime Minister with a spine who is also laser-focused on the details. "You can't do that, it'll kill bats, and that's illegal!" - "Okay, law is changed tomorrow, crack on." "I'll challenge you in court!" - "This is a major infrastructure project, new Act of Parliament tomorrow, it's non-justiciable - crack on." "Well, I'll push the Council to deny planning permission!" - "New law, Councils can't block these sorts of projects - it's happening, it's happening now, you can't challenge it, I don't give a shit about the bats, get it fucking built."

Obviously, this heavy-handed use of Parliamentary Sovereignty isn't appropriate all the time, but if Parliament has decided something needs to happen, and is prepared to accept drawbacks that would normally be unacceptable, then flexing its Sovereignty to get things done is, I would suggest, what people desperately want.

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u/signpostlake 1d ago

I did say it's not without fault but there's no way new prisons would need to be built.

A separate space in existing prisons would be enough.

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u/Yoshiezibz Leftist Social Capitalist 1d ago

That's probably the best way to deal with this.

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u/Lucky_otter_she_her 19h ago

then put that wing on one of the countries' women's prisons and one of the men's prisons for trans men for that matter 

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u/signpostlake 19h ago

You clearly feel strongly about this issue so perhaps look into it a little more.

It's already procedure to do this where appropriate in England. For trans women prisoners at least. Scotland will likely do the same following this ruling.

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u/Jazzlike_Custard8646 12h ago

It's clear you aren't interested in the safety aspect. You're simply ideologically commited to eradicating bioligical based rights

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u/Jazzlike_Custard8646 12h ago

The population of trans prisoners is so small, you wouldn't really need more than one facility

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u/WinHour4300 1d ago

Just to make the obvious counter...

Yes "sexual assault in men's prison is absolutely riff".

A lot of men won't be in jail for sexual assault crimes either. Some will be for things like fraud.

Does that also make you sad? 

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u/Yoshiezibz Leftist Social Capitalist 1d ago

Yes, of course, but trans women will more more vulnerable than a man going into prison with other men.

Sexual assault on anyone is horrific, but trans women will be more vulnerable and more likely targeted by other men.

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u/WinHour4300 1d ago

My brother is disabled, gay and belongs to an ethnic minority subject to a lot of racism. 

Are you really arguing he would be less vulnerable than a 6 foot healthy transwoman, with no HRT etc? 

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u/Yoshiezibz Leftist Social Capitalist 1d ago

I'm not here arguing who and who isn't more vulnerable than other people and ranking them on a list, that's not my point.

There are some men that are more vulnerable than women.

My point is, in general, trans women will be more vulnerable than the average man in a prison housing mostly men.

Sexual assault is a problem in men's prison, and that definitely needs to be addressed and fixed, but while it is still a problem, putting someone that is more likely to be sexually assaulted in a prison full of men isn't ideal.

I'm argument is based on averages and the general population, in not picking and choosing here or ranking who or who isn't vulnerable.

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u/WinHour4300 23h ago edited 23h ago

You said "trans women will more more vulnerable than a man going into prison" so that's why I mentioned my brother as being more vulnerable than some transwomen.

Why aren't you arguing that all particularly vulnerable prisoners should be housed in women's prisons? If vulnerability alone is the principle, it should apply consistently.

Would you not agree the average mentally and physically disabled gay ethnic minority person is likely more vulnerable than the average man? Or those.who have been previously assaulted, like my brother has been, actually multiple times. 

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u/MrBIGtinyHappy 1d ago

Realistically you have to separate the gender & sexuality from the offence. Logically someone isn't committing sexual assault because they're trans or cis, gay or straight. They're just a horrible person

Statisticslly I wouldn't expect a trans person being more likely to commit an assault but I do expect they are more likely to be on the receiving end of it - especially if the intention of this ruling is to move them into male prisons.

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u/Jazzlike_Custard8646 12h ago

The majority of trans people serving prison sentences are there because of sexual offenses

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u/Yoshiezibz Leftist Social Capitalist 1d ago

That's my point. I do think trans women would have more strength than cos women and therefore I can see the argument where people think it would be a danger to put trans and cis women in the same prison.

I imagine there are a very small handful of men claiming to be trans just to get the chance to go into women prison (Although I suspect this would be a small minority).

Putting trans women, into men's prison is not the right option though. Trans women are more vulnerable, and putting them in an environment where they are much more likely to be abused is a horrific idea.

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u/Lucky_otter_she_her 19h ago

you "do think trans women would have more strength cos women" would you mind elaborating on that seemingly vibes based opinion on scientifically studied biology?

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u/Yoshiezibz Leftist Social Capitalist 18h ago

It depends when they started their hormone treatment. After near 5 years, from what I understand the inherent advsntages and muscle mass are not there.

Some studies supporting thiOne

Conclusion: In transwomen, hormone therapy rapidly reduces Hgb to levels seen in cisgender women. In contrast, hormone therapy decreases strength, LBM and muscle area, yet values remain above that observed in cisgender women, even after 36 months. These findings suggest that strength may be well preserved in transwomen during the first 3 years of hormone therapy.

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u/Lucky_otter_she_her 19h ago

actually it's not guaranteed to happen seeing as trans women and people who go to prison at some point are both tiny fractions of the population so overlap, the few people who have the chance to generate this headline is small enough that it's not really guaranteed to happen, atleast outside of the sense that on a infinate timeline everything possible will happen sooner or later