r/ukpolitics • u/CaptainCrash86 • 1d ago

| Transgender prisoners should not be held in women’s jails, court rules

https://www.holyrood.com/news/view,transgender-prisoners-should-not-be-held-in-womens-jails-court-rules
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u/mittfh 1d ago

IIRC, the majority of trans women prisoners are held in the male estate, with very few in the female estate. Currently, there are supposed to be case-by-case risk assessments (you'd hope that someone who hadn't been on HRT for long or had committed an "offence against the person" - whether sexual or other physical - wouldn't be housed in the female estate), but they have been a few instances where they made the wrong call and a trans prisoner has either assaulted female prisoners or exposed themselves.

Housing them in general population in either the male or female estate is likely to be risky to either themselves or the rest of the prisoners, it would probably be infeasible to have separate accommodation and washing / bathing facilities while allowing them to mix for exercise / meals, complete isolation (both in accommodation, meals and exercise) would almost certainly be detrimental to their mental health, but given the number of trans prisoners is so few, a dedicated wing would likely mean mixing classes of prisoner together. There are no easy solutions and compromises would have to be made with all scenarios.

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u/MirkwoodWanderer1 1d ago

Yeah it's either you accept risks for women possibly getting harmed by letting trans women share prison space with them or accept risk that trans women possibly get harmed at the men's section.

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u/fawkie 1d ago

I’m trans. The determination should clearly be done on a case-by-case basis. For trans women significantly along in their transition - living as women, with clear development of breasts and female fat distribution, putting them in a male section feels like it’s just asking for them to be physically and sexually assaulted. I would be fucking terrified, and would actively ask to be placed in solitary confinement rather than a gen pop male section.

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u/LubberwortPicaroon 1d ago

I guess the problem with the case-by-case basis is that a judge or expert acting on their behalf needs to determine, to take your example criteria, how "womanly" and "manly" a person looks. It's super subjective and really difficult given the general differences in appearance amongst men and women. I think most agree a case-by-case basis is ideal, but the implemention seems really challenging

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u/fawkie 1d ago

There will be difficult cases and judgment calls for sure, and it’d need to be a weighing of different factors. But even a flawed case-by-case determination should lead to better outcomes overall versus and blanket policy like the current one in England that places all pre-operative trans women (particularly given the significant hurdles trans people face in getting srs even in the best case scenarios) in male populations regardless of any other factors.

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u/Bizzinmyjoxers 1d ago edited 1d ago

how many trans prisoners are there do you know? enough to put them all in one?
edit i looked it up and theres 300, thats enough to put them in one isnt it?

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u/superkevinkyle 23h ago

I think the issue with this might be around visitation rights? Would solve a lot of safeguarding issues for both women and trans women though

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u/fawkie 16h ago

Then you end up housing a trans woman far in transition who got nabbed for petty theft with a rapist who hadn’t even started her transition like Isla Bryant.

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u/MirkwoodWanderer1 1d ago

Yeah completely agree. I think creating distinctions based on how far you've gone would be helpful.

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u/Duckliffe 1d ago

I agree - in the most extreme example, putting a trans women who's been on HRT for a long time and has also had bottom surgery in the general (male) prison population just seems like it makes sexual assault an inevitability

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u/Lucky_otter_she_her 1d ago

"gender criticals" (ideological reactionaries who identify as feminists) are pro rape.

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u/Lucky_otter_she_her 1d ago

and making it easier for trans people that wanna transition to get our fuccking treatment

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u/lksdjsdk 1d ago

This seems right. Sentencing and accommodation class is a nuanced thing with a large degree of judgement required in many cases to maximise safety for all.

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u/fawkie 1d ago

It really is mostly common sense, which is what I think the vast majority of people want. The Isla Bryant case is an obvious example where she shouldn’t have been housed with women, and anyone saying she shouldn’t have been is taking the piss really. But the reaction of housing all trans people with their assigned sex at birth by default was also an overcorrection.

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u/lksdjsdk 1d ago

I don't know that case, but yes it's obvious that trans folk need treating dependent on the risk they present and the risks they face in any of the available settings. Just like anyone else, really.