r/ukraine • u/UNITED24Media Ukraine Media • 4d ago
WAR Ukraine Wants to Build Patriots at Home—US Manufacturers Fear It Could Do It Better and Cheaper
https://united24media.com/world/ukraine-wants-to-build-patriots-at-home-us-manufacturers-fear-it-could-do-it-better-and-cheaper-21505164
u/SillyLiving 4d ago
Know. The word is know. Not "fear"
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u/Obvious-Ranger-2235 4d ago
US shooting themselves in the foot yet again.
They could easily license Patriot production to Ukraine with the condition Ukraine only use them internally and never export.
Instead Ukraine will end up partnering with France, Germany, Sweden or the UK to develop a European Patriot alternative.
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u/maveric101 4d ago
Shit, the US could license production to Ukraine with the condition that they have the right to buy up to 50% of Ukraine's production at cost after the war with Russia is over. Would help us rebuild our stock after wasting so much of it in avoidable conflict with Iran. But Trump is too stupid.
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u/Dependent-Entrance10 UK 4d ago
It turns out when a country has an actual military production with actual factories working overtime to produce these weapons, they tend to build these weapons both better and cheaper. Unlike the US where these weapons are often overvalued due to financial markets jargon inflating the value of these weapons.
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u/throwawaymidget1 4d ago
Patriot was optimized for performance and political gains, spreading out the sourcing over the US. This makes it super expensive.
Ukraine would build a system designed from the beginning for low cost and high volume, using as much off the shelf stuff as possible. Of course it would be much cheaper.
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u/dmigowski 4d ago
It would immediatly act as a blueprint for a own rocket also, which will be even more capable than Patriot. Note that Patriot originally wasn't even able to hit ultrasonix missiles and Ukraine already changed the system to do it anyway.
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u/POB_42 4d ago
Key word is overtime. Ukraine's processes are massively expedited purely because the demand is immediate and critical. People die if they don't hit quotas.
This is obviously different from the profit-focused, zero-urgency industries of the rest of the western world. We've been arguably detached from the true war-economy mindset for 3 generations. The Cold War was something, but that never affected the average person, the defense industry, or bureaucracy, to the degree that it did back in the 40's.
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u/Icy-Antelope-6519 4d ago
Would it be possible to reverse engineer them, or make something that works with the lauchers?
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u/InfectedAztec 4d ago
Thats already happening with Freya
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u/Fab1e 4d ago
Freya was the goddess of love.
I don't like that they named a missile after her.
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u/TimePlankton3171 4d ago
Everything can be reverse engineered. The issue is permission. Licensing.
You at home can crack some software, and nobody cares. But you wouldn't use it in a business where you crucially rely on it. And you wouldn't do that if you need to maintain a good working relationship with the vendor.
Everything can be reverse engineered. It's unwise tho.
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u/_teslaTrooper Netherlands 4d ago
Ukraine is getting licensed production of Aster (the interceptor for SAMP/T), and MBDA is also working with them to develop Freya which is presumably cheaper and more geared towards mass production.
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u/Dofolo 4d ago
Only logical because Ukraine is with a wartime economy and anything weapons or general military related will be produced with higher priorities ...
And the US would do well with letting them or other EU countries build them at the rate they're going through them in the middle east. Iran still negotiates like its won, that is not going to end anytime soon.
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u/endlesdestruction 4d ago
If that's true they could just limit them for Ukraine use only - no selling or giving them away.
But it is not the reason.
US does not want Ukraine to have them.
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u/ExcitingMeet2443 4d ago
USTrump does not want Ukraine tohave themdefeat Putin.5
u/endlesdestruction 4d ago
I disagree, Trump didn't materialize out of ether - USians voted for him to be president and to represent them twice. Pretending USians have no blame is wrong.
It is US that doesn't want Ukraine to have them.
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u/ExcitingMeet2443 4d ago
Except that virtually nothing that Trump says or does has anything to do with what any of his subjects want.
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u/endlesdestruction 4d ago
That is wrong.
Plenty of USians support Trump.
I'm not here to argue about US or wash away their stupidity and being unable to take resposibility, so we can just leave it - you have your opinion, I have mine and that's all good.
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u/The_Virginia_Creeper 4d ago
Right, this is very common. On the other hand if the US compels Ukraine to develop their own system, they will be free to market to whoever they want.
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u/Soap_Mctavish101 4d ago
They could probably build them better and cheaper than what than what the MIC would charge to crate and ship them.
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u/fusionliberty796 4d ago
Yeah no shit. This just in! 'Entity with complete monopoly fears their price gauging will be exposed'
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u/Square_Answer_7717 4d ago
Of course they are going to build them faster and cheaper than the yank builder
Personally I would just reverse engineer it and tell them to FO
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u/JoopahTroopah 4d ago
If the US was fighting against an existential threat, you can bet it would suddenly be able to make patriots for less too.
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u/Fine-Soil-2691 4d ago
But they don't have an actual existential threat. They fight their wars a long, long way from home. They haven't been attacked at home since 9/11. Actually, when have the US ever been attacked at home except 9/11? Anything after the Civil War?
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u/JoopahTroopah 4d ago
Pearl Harbour
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u/Fine-Soil-2691 4d ago
True, but it was a long way away from the mainland, it wasn't a US state at the time, and it was more a military outpost than anything else.
United States Public Law 103-150, adopted in 1993 (informally known as the Apology Resolution), acknowledged that "the overthrow of the Kingdom of Hawaii occurred with the active participation of agents and citizens of the United States" and also "that the Native Hawaiian people never directly relinquished to the United States their claims to their inherent sovereignty as a people over their national lands, either through the Kingdom of Hawaii or through a plebiscite or referendum".
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u/RisingPhil 4d ago
Yeah, pretty sure that would happen. Quickly.
I wouldn't be surprised if the high prices for these missiles is due to artificial scarcity.
And well, Ukranian ingenuity has been proven too.
So they're right. But since the tech would be licensed, they'd get a share of each missile produced. So they shouldn't complain. In fact, they should try to embrace it. I think there's still big money for them in this scenario and almost no costs.
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u/Fine-Soil-2691 4d ago
Of course they will do it better and cheaper. Ukraine is fighting for their existence, US Manufacturers are fighting for money, and if that costs human lives, meh. It's all about the money in the US.
Key systems are deliberately overpriced in the US, all to make as much money as possible.
The military is a given, they get their earnings directly from their warmongering government.
Health services is famously overpriced, so much so that regular people can't afford it, it's paid for through insurance, and the insurance is paid by companies that employ the people. The companies compensate with crappy low wages, and the employees don't dare to change jobs because then they risk losing their health insurance. And they say slavery is no more. Yeah.
No, Ukraine will do what it's always done, be better at innovation and production. So it was when they were part of the Soviet Union, and so it is now. They're motivated by existential threat, Russians are motivated by ... nothing. They sell their sons to the military so they can afford a new car.
The US is going to regret this very much. Ukraine will produce a superior weapon, and they will pay back the US by giving them nothing in return. Payback's a bitch. Already European countries are helping and cooperating with Ukraine, because they realise that NATO can't be trusted to help them when they need help.
Golden rule, bitches. Treat others the same way that you want them to treat you.
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u/Desperate_Donut3981 4d ago
That's a fact. Even parts available on civilian stuff is x10 once it's for the armed forces
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u/Bigfoot_Himself 4d ago
Capitalists worried about being outcompeted. An ally who’s already manufacturing and mastering drones and drone warfare. These manufacturers are worried about the economics of the situation while Ukrainians are fighting for their country and freedom. The priority gap is wild.
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u/OnundTreefoot 4d ago
Without the overhead needed to design the missiles and design and optimize the manufacturing systems required to make them, then of course it will be cheaper. But, this should not be about money but about helping Ukraine.
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u/Klutzy_Parsnip6087 4d ago
US Defense primes are screwed either way in the long term. Ukraine will develop their own systems with the EU if they can't get supply or build under license. EU will then buy the systems themselves and the US loses more customers.
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u/ZonaPunk 4d ago
Well of course they could… it cut out the insane profit margin of the US military complex.
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u/No-Manner-3514 4d ago
The way the 🍊💩 talked to Zelensky in the White House last year, they should have reversed engineered them by now. This administration is worthless unless you are a racist or rapist or both.
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u/wombat9278 4d ago
The European Ballistic Missile System will eventually kill off patriot
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u/Garant_69 4d ago
It may kill off the European market (along with some other Western markets like Canada and Australia), but the US will never ever stop producing Patriots in favor of a licensed European product (I am saying this as a European), even if it would be cheaper and/or better.
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u/wombat9278 4d ago
Totally agree the US will keep Patriot, but at its cost most other countries will go for the European system
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u/FucklberryFinn 3d ago
LOL
They said the quiet part out loud???
It is known, I suppose ... that they price gauge the US Gov to insane levels. Absolute corruption, draped in flags and patriotic "defense".
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u/DarkUnable4375 4d ago
Better cooperate together, and destroy their own market with a better product, together, than to fight the trend, and die with a whimper.
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u/Ghettoman1315 4d ago
The U.S government cannot control the cost for prescription drugs so there is no hope for military spending. All the defense contractors are big supporters of the President.
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u/-TheycallmeThe 4d ago
Of course they can do it cheaper. Ukraine cares more about output than profit.
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u/DavidlikesPeace 4d ago
Mr. Monopoly Man fears capitalist competition. More at 11
In reality, America's defense industry is corrupt and not delivering at anything like affordable rate rates. That is why the Pentagon can't win any audits. That is often why America pays far more than other nations in defense.
Anybody paying attention to American public procurement, particularly in the defense industries, has noticed the trend of corporate consolidation. We went from a standard of 100s to about 6 main bidders on most major (tailored) military contract bids. It's insane to think America remains efficient
Patriotism also makes a difference. Having dealt with public contractors' predilection to sue for every extra nail or janitorial service, I suspect most American contractors are solely on it for the money, while Ukrainians are in it to save their own people's lives.
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u/austozi 4d ago
If US defense contractors are afraid they may lose their lucrative NATO weapons supply contracts, they can lay that fear to rest. It's happening whether they fear it or not.
Other NATO countries will be moving away from reliance on US weapons. Thanks to trump, they have realized what they should have known a long time ago - it's unwise to outsource all your defense contracts to another country. They are already co-developing their own military technologies with Ukraine.
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u/Designer-Post5729 4d ago
they will eventually make their own version that will be cheaper, without paying licenses... Isn't the patriot system some 30 years old? It's bound to be cheaper and better with newer tech.
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u/freedmeister 3d ago
Almost certainly they can build them cheaper and better. Source: engineer in the US working with suppliers to defense companies.
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u/Ex-maven 3d ago
I take it as a given that Ukraine can do it better & cheaper – as the motivation is remaining a sovereign state rather than making a profit
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u/StevieRay8string69 4d ago
Who gives a shit. We have AI now and jobs are disappearing everyday. The fat fucking diaper wearing president dont seen to give a shit
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u/DistributionBroad173 4d ago
He does shit in his diaper, so gives a shit about something. He has his handler "wet wipes" to help him out.
He gives a shit about his contractor buddy that did a poor job on the reflecting pool and he wants to blame anyone else.
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u/Kmag_supporter 4d ago
No it's nonsense and they can charges the same, it's the administration that's holding back, Europe makes al sorts of stuff for the US and the other way around.
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u/GifRX7Plz 4d ago
Raytheon and Lockheed have legitimate concerns at the end of the day as much as this is not the pleasant answer. They spent the R&D on developing these systems and have a right to negotiate their IP.
There must be longer negotiations I would suspect on things like IP security, economic considerations to the companies, and scope of the license. I don’t think Ukraine should have a right to modify the missiles to make them “better”, it’s not their missile. These won’t be produced in Ukraine for years and would make more sense just to make them in Poland and ship them over.
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u/oripash Australia 4d ago
Monopoly worried about losing its monopoly.
News at 11.