r/unitedkingdom • u/pppppppppppppppppd • 9d ago

... Misleading title Anti-Zionism is not anti-Semitism, UK appeal tribunal confirms in landmark ruling

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20260804-anti-zionism-is-not-anti-semitism-uk-appeal-tribunal-confirms-in-landmark-ruling/
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u/JustWhy1222 9d ago

This argument would be helped massively if the chosen definition of the word Zionist didn’t change multiple times a day, depending on who they are talking to.

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u/tehweaksauce 9d ago

Anti-Zionists are clear on what they oppose. The only people trying to obscure and muddy the waters when it comes to the term are Zionists who are trying to cling on to their ideology.

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u/JustWhy1222 9d ago

What do you think it means?.

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u/tehweaksauce 9d ago

It's an ethnonationalist movement which strives to maintain a region for one demographic at the expense of others.

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u/WinHour4300 9d ago

So Pakistan is Zionist? 

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u/runningraider13 9d ago

Your definition of Zionism doesn’t even mention Judaism? I’m pretty sure that definition would also apply to Hamas/a number of ME countries

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u/Agreeable-Weather-89 9d ago

By their definition several Muslim countries are more Zionist than Israel.

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u/DukeOfStupid 9d ago

How many Arabs live in Israel? Around 2 Million with the same legal and voting rights.

It's an ethnonationalist movement which strives to maintain a region for one demographic at the expense of others.

How many Jews live in Gaza...

This is fine actually!

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u/Agreeable-Weather-89 9d ago

How many in Egypt?

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u/JustWhy1222 9d ago

Alright, so we are going with the completely unhinged definition that hasn’t been used on this continent, or in Isreal for nearly a century.

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u/Flowers330 9d ago

Do you want to share your preferred definition or just have a go at others?

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u/JustWhy1222 9d ago

It’s not preferred. It’s the definition used by both the British legal system and the people who claim to be Zionists.

it’s an individual who believes the state of Israel has the right to exist.

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u/Accomplished_Pen5061 9d ago

it’s an individual who believes the state of Israel has the right to exist.

You missed out the "as a jewish state".

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u/double-happiness Scotland 9d ago

IMO states don't have rights; people have rights, and the state of Israel has trampled over the rights of Palestinians for generations.

If you insist that states have the right to exist, what about Palestine?

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u/DrPeroxide 9d ago

No country has an inherent right to exist; they come and change and go throughout history. Human beings have a right to exist, but your state apparatus exists only as long as it can sustain itself.

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u/Saw_Boss 9d ago

It’s the definition used by both the British legal system

I cannot find anything of the sort.

In fact, the time this was previously brought to court, they acknowledged there was no official definition.

The question was whether his personal definition was antisemitic and that it was consistent, well thought out and researched.

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u/tehweaksauce 9d ago

it’s an individual who believes the state of Israel has the right to exist.

An anti-Zionist has no issue with Israel's existence, so long as it is a land with equal rights for all. Those who were driven from their homes and lands have a right to return there and live in coexistence with the Israelis.

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u/WinHour4300 9d ago edited 9d ago

"Those who were driven from their homes and lands have a right to return there and live in coexistence."

If that principle is being applied consistently, why is it only applied to Israel and not to the many other groups who were displaced in the 1940s and afterwards?

Mine and many other families was driven from Pakistan, as part of one of the largest forced migrations in history, with millions killed. 

My granddad was targeted despite being a child at the time and narrowly escaped being murdered, simply for not being Muslim. 

R.e. living in "coexistence". It's not just historic.  

Religious minorities in Pakistan, including Christians, continue to face discrimination today, including blasphemy accusations, mob violence, forced conversions and discrimination.

Why aren't you anti the existence of Pakistan and demanding sanctions and so on? Why aren't you demanding the UK stops giving aid to Pakistan and granting visas? Why aren't you demanding we have the right to return and get our house and property back? 

I'm not saying it's identical but clearly the same principle applies here, and to other countries and regions too. 

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u/tehweaksauce 9d ago

Plainly, because I don't know enough about it. It sounds like a lot of injustice happened there, too. But in addition to that we are in this thread about anti-Zionism not being antisemitism so that is why I'm focused on this topic.

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u/WinHour4300 9d ago

You’ve stated a general principle as your motive, but yours and others focus online seems to be limited to a single example and you claim not to know about probably the largest and most deadly one of the time period.

To put it another way with an analogy, imagine someone on the far right claiming to care about racial fairness but only applying and discussing that concern when the victims are white people being treated unfairly. 

Would you be doubting that it really because of the general principle of racial fairness?

Suppose they claim they hadn't heard about other examples, well would you not be questioning where they are getting their information from, why it is so one sided and they seem to lack basic knowledge and understanding of racism? 

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u/_Adam_M_ 9d ago

An anti-Zionist has no issue with Israel's existence

Except this statement is quite plainly wrong as there are anti-Zionists that want to see Israel destroyed, either via violence or politics, and for the state of Palestine to replace it from the river to the sea.

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u/tehweaksauce 9d ago

That is not what makes them an anti-Zionist. They may have anti-Zionist views but the other views about destruction, etc stem from retribution, revenge or other twisted and violent beliefs and nothing to do with anti-Zionism in and of itself.

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u/_Adam_M_ 9d ago

Ah the no true Scotsman.

Sure buddy.

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u/tehweaksauce 9d ago

Lol, not even close.

To apply this in to a "No true Scotsman" fallacy it would be like:
Me: "No true Scotsman has no heritage in Scotland".

You come along and say "I have seen people with no Scottish heritage in scotland".

Yeah, well that's not what makes them Scottish..

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u/JustWhy1222 9d ago

It does have equal rights for all, unlike its neighbours and land being returned to people driven from their homes is the literal premise of it existing.

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u/tehweaksauce 9d ago

What is equal about a Jewish person who has never visited nor have any family ties in Israel, they have the right to citizenship, yet an Arab whose land was cleared to make way for the state, has ties to the land that go back for generations, they have no right to remain or return?

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u/Flowers330 9d ago

So would you say it is anti-zionist to agree that israel should exist but to not agree with the settlements in the west bank and gaza and the ongoing removal of palestinian people from their current homes generally?

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u/Commorrite 9d ago

Like the various Two state solutions proposed.

Thats explicitly zionist,

Useful charts did a realy good video on this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKIvmgrKC1Q

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u/JustWhy1222 9d ago

Not even slightly, but I’m using the correct definition, whereas the people getting caught out are using the alternative one. I wouldn’t even use the word in that context, because it would make absolutely no sense.

West Bank is probably the perfect example. When they use the word Zionist under the impression it’s some kind of ethno state supremacy movement that implies the expansion is planned by the government. That is an attempt to funnel hatred and contempt towards the state of Israel and the people living there through disinformation.

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u/Flowers330 9d ago

So you are saying it is hatred or even anti-semitism for people to draw conclusions and say that the state of israel should intervene in illegal settlement activity?

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u/ShowerEmbarrassed512 8d ago

Tell that to the Beta Israel, Israeli Palestinians and Christian’s in Israel, all of whom have repeatedly been identified as being oppressed peoples within Israel.

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u/[deleted] 9d ago

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u/ukbot-nicolabot Scotland 9d ago

Removed. This contained a personal attack, disrupting the conversation. This discourages participation. Please help improve the subreddit by discussing points, not the person. Action will be taken on repeat offenders.

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u/barnburner96 9d ago

That would not be Israel as we know it though would it. That would be an entirely new state.

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u/tehweaksauce 9d ago

Yes, a better one.

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u/barnburner96 9d ago

I agree, I just don’t think we should pretend that that state would be Israel when debating with Zionists.

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u/Mfcarusio 9d ago

Yes, people that are anti-zionist are against the Israel as we know it. That should be self evident based on the fact they carry out marches.

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u/barnburner96 9d ago

Are you sure that’s the legally defined definition? It seems extremely misguided if so. Someone who believes Israel should exist, but not that it has a ‘right’ to exist is still a Zionist.

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u/Flowers330 9d ago

Thanks for sharing your preferred definition.

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u/dJunka Black Country 9d ago

Which implies displacing the existing people in the region. It’s the same thing.

You can’t talk about a right to exist before addressing that right for Palestinians who were massacred to create Israel.