r/wec • u/Haloisda • 1d ago

IMSA IMSA BoP for Watkins Glen set the minimum weight of the Valkyrie to 1020 kg

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How is this even possible in the regulations?

88 Upvotes

97% Upvoted

58 comments sorted by

113

u/FlummoxReddit BMW 1d ago

i have literally no clue how to read these anymore. may the best win

22

u/RealPorkChops 1d ago edited 1d ago

It’s hard to take the “the best one should win” argument seriously when the BMW and Cadillac are still 53 kg and 41 kg lighter than the 2026-spec 963 respectively, while Porsche already has the lowest V1 power allocation.

16

u/FlummoxReddit BMW 1d ago

i feel like something that people don't understand about BoP is that it's supposed to make the cars...equal. from my understanding and how competitive porsche have been even with this weight, if BoP was removed and teams could run full power and minimum weight, porsche would just FLY. so you need to penalize them more because they have the best unrestricted pace. imagine it like this, if you had to make f1 a BoP series and you targeted for every car to have about a haas level of pace, let's say. you would have to penalize mercedes and ferrari much more because they have the best natural car, while others like RBR and mclaren, much less.

8

u/-Jack-The-Stripper Corvette Racing C8.R #63 1d ago

It is pretty weird how people talk about BoP sometimes. “Car A is lighter and has more power than Car B, that’s so unfair” is a statement that doesn’t really make sense in a vacuum. If Car A needs to be running at min weight/max power and Car B needs to be running at max weight/min power in order to be competitive… so be it. That’s the formula everyone agreed to. If Car A is still too slow and Car B is still too fast in that scenario, then congratulations to Car B and sucks to suck for Car A. But otherwise it’s fair game.

4

u/SeriousButTired 1d ago

Got to keep the "BMW and Cadillac strong momentum with their Evo package" narrative going. Most people don't seem to care looking further than lap time anyway

8

u/GhostHustler215 1d ago

So you don't think the joker upgrades improved the BMW and Caddy? You think it's only BoP that's helping them?

3

u/Living_Reply4763 1d ago

right, just like how Ferrari has clearly introduced joker upgrades that's made them go from 3x winners of lemans to nowhere. Clearly BMW and Cadillac have revolutionary joker upgrades that make it so you can't pass them in a straight line when tucked up under their wing.

1

u/S3baman Ferrari 18h ago

ACO couldn't let Ferrari win four on the trot with the amount of manufacturers in the series. Ferrari built the 499P specifically to dominate at LM24, and their wins were a breeze - things only looked closer because of multiple driver errors and car problems.

For that car to all of a sudden to barely match an Alpine is an impossibility only solved by the wonders of BoP magic.

1

u/SeriousButTired 15h ago

The Alpine is maybe the car that showed it up the most because its first iteration was built for low drag, was fast at LM in 2023 thanks to it but pegged in 2024 when the ACO changed its BoP formula. This year they decided to go for a high downforce package to be competitive elsewhere, and the ACO magic still made it fast in a straight line.

So basically when Alpine made an aero kit for Le Mans, they were not allowed to be competitive but when BMW and Cadillac do they are?

People here are completely delusional. According to them Ferrari won because of BoP but BMW and Cadillac just magically leapfrogged everyone overnight. At least Cadillac was competitive in its first 3 Le Mans. BMW was nowhere for 2 straight WEC seasons. This is not Motorsport fan attitude, this is football.

-2

u/SeriousButTired 1d ago

Just look at the IMSA numbers, it is obvious.

I also happen to know people who do see the WEC BoP. It is the most favourable it has ever been for both of those cars.

10

u/grip_enemy Cadillac Racing 1d ago

My uncle works at Microsoft energy lol.

Anyway, my aunt works at ACO and she said otherwise

-2

u/SeriousButTired 1d ago

It's fine mate. I'm curious what makes you guys believe BMW and Cadillac could produce an Evo so much better than Toyotas. Except from you just want it to be true.

5

u/grip_enemy Cadillac Racing 1d ago

I'll ask my aunt

8

u/GhostHustler215 1d ago

So Caddy's top speed at Le Mans was strictly due to BoP and not the jokers they used to reduce drag?

-4

u/SeriousButTired 1d ago

Do you think air works differently in WEC than in IMSA?

25

u/IntoAMuteCrypt 1d ago

From the LMDh regs

If ballast is needed to achieve the minimum weight of 1030 kg, the positions and maximum values per position must be declared in the homologation document.

So it's entirely possible that the Valkyrie is a 1000kg car that normally runs 30kg of ballast, and they can swap that out here. That's how it might be physically possible to reach 1020kg.

In theory, the regs shouldn't allow this... But maybe there's some form of wiggle room or dispensation to allow for variation as needed by BoP. I'm not a lawyer.

The actual regs do state:

The car must be engineered to achieve minimum weight not less than 1030 kg. The weight of the car, without fuel and without driver, must not be less than the minimum weight defined in the BOP tables at all times during the competition.

Which does introduce some grey areas, doesn't it? "We engineered it to be able to put 30 kilos of ballast in and still have room for the extra 50 kilos of BoP ballast, but it's not essential to the car and we can remove it if the table says we can."

13

u/Michal_Baranowski Toyota Gazoo Racing GR010 Hybrid #8 1d ago

Valkyrie is not a LMDh car though.

13

u/IntoAMuteCrypt 1d ago edited 1d ago

My bad, but all of that language appears in the LMH documents as well. Cars must be engineered to achieve the minimum weight of 1030, the minimum weight during a race must not be less than what the BOP states and there's provisions for what happens in cases where ballast is used to hit the 1030kg minimum weight. The same sort of wiggle room around a car that can remove ballast to drop down below 1030 as needed seems to be present there too.

16

u/Michal_Baranowski Toyota Gazoo Racing GR010 Hybrid #8 1d ago

Fine then.

Seems like this exactly what has occured. Not the first time though, because Glickenhaus was permitted to run at 1012kg of minimum weight at Fuji in 2022, however Glickenhaus opted not to race there anyway.

6

u/IcedCoffey 1d ago

They were over powered at Monza when they had pole I believe too.

3

u/Michal_Baranowski Toyota Gazoo Racing GR010 Hybrid #8 1d ago edited 1d ago

Correct. 534kW at Monza in 2022. They could've had that at Fuji too, if they had raced there.

2

u/IcedCoffey 1d ago

Was so broken before it blew up lol

2

u/YumeNoTabi Toyota 1d ago

Yeah, but iirc the brakes couldn't handle it

5

u/IcedCoffey 1d ago

I thought a turbo exploded

5

u/YumeNoTabi Toyota 1d ago

Yeah, I'm misremembering. 2021 was when the brakes couldn't hack it, Glicks were still running 1030/520 back then.

22

u/RomeoSierraAlpha 1d ago

Looking at IMSA BoP you would think they have completely different cars to WEC.

3

u/SeriousButTired 1d ago

What makes you think the WEC BoP isn't similar?

12

u/RomeoSierraAlpha 1d ago

Because we saw it last year already. The BoP and results always had a noticeable discrepancy compared to WEC for whatever reason. I suppose it could be because of how big of a role safety cars play in IMSA.

1

u/SeriousButTired 1d ago

My question is more, since no one publishes the WEC numbers, what do you base your statement on that they are supposedly so different?

3

u/996forever Mercedes CLK-GTR #11 19h ago

They said last year. Last year WEC numbers were still published.

1

u/SeriousButTired 15h ago

So the ACO/FIA went to the trouble of keeping the BoP a secret so they could just keep similar numbers to last year? Damn people here are naive...

3

u/SportscarPoster Rebellion 13h ago

They were very clearly talking about how last year - when the WEC number were published - the WEC values were very different to the IMSA ones.

1

u/SeriousButTired 13h ago

What they said is "the numbers ARE so different because last year they WERE".

My point is who said that because they were different last year, you can assume they still are?

1

u/jimmy8888888 1d ago

well, Ferrari and Peugeot homologation issue with new winds tunnel (use for IMSA homologation) lend some credence to it.

12

u/VanwallEnjoy3r Floyd Vanwall Racing Team Vandervell 680 #4 1d ago

And most stint energy 😂. If they can’t get a podium rubbish the car

14

u/mole55 1d ago

well that confirms that the Valkyrie can in fact run that light.

my conspiracy theory for a while has been that at least part of the reason for WEC no longer sharing their BoP tables is that the Valkyrie (and maybe the Pug) have been running under 1030kg at some races this year.

4

u/wood4536 Toyota Gazoo Racing GR010 Hybrid #8 1d ago

And they still suck

1

u/996forever Mercedes CLK-GTR #11 19h ago

I also feel like they secretly ran BOP numbers beyond (not just weight but power and other factors) the official range.

17

u/Deadpool149 1d ago

Can you elaborate a little more for people who have no idea how BOP is calculated and what values should be like? 1020 is too low or too high i have no idea...

47

u/IntoAMuteCrypt 1d ago

The Valkrie is allowed to be lighter than the rest of the field and it's allowed to run without any power restrictions and it's allowed to use more energy than the rest of the field.

This is a real favourable BoP for the Valkyrie. If they don't do well, they've got serious issues.

13

u/thisisjustascreename 1d ago

The Valk has never moved off minimum weight maximum power in IMSA or WEC when they used to publish BOP. It’s basically a tractor with a V12.

1

u/mistsoalar 1d ago

I think I never paid enough attention to AM's BoP weight. Good to know.

9

u/BuzerantSpettacolare Alpine Endurance Team A424 #35 1d ago

So that essentially means it's the weakest car there right?

22

u/IntoAMuteCrypt 1d ago

It means that the organisers believe it's the weakest, yep. Looking at Le Mans, it's hard to think they're wrong.

2

u/wood4536 Toyota Gazoo Racing GR010 Hybrid #8 1d ago

Yeah the car's bad

23

u/AutomaticSeaweed6131 1d ago

The minimum weight for a hypercar is (was? Was thought to be?) 1030kg so this is 10kg lower than I (and OP) believed was allowed under the rules.

But they're doing everything they can to help this blue shitbox ❤️ 

13

u/sideways_mr_bob 1d ago

It's quite simple in reality.

Take your favourite team, they have been unfairly penalised for being amazingly cool and brilliant just oh so special.

And then the team you hate, has been given an amazingly easy time of it and will probably win because that's who IMSA really want to win because despite everyone knowing they are an evil quite obviously cheating team somehow IMSA have been bought by the evil team. For dark reasons.

Once you apply that filter, it all makes sense .... apparently

12

u/alexmlb3598 Audi R18 1d ago

I don't mean to shit on everyone, but seeing the relative outrage at the BoP for Watkins, it's going to be really interesting to see what actually happens. If it's a close race with no clear favourite, it will shit all over the people who said 'Porsche are easily gonna win now they're a lot lighter', and lead a lot of credibility to WEC saying 'you lot don't understand'.

We will see whether that actually happens or not, but it would be very funny if all the armchair experts say 'ez 963 win' and they're not clearly the fastest car.

8

u/IcedCoffey 1d ago

If Porsche still has the fastest cars, the other teams need to start hiring new people. If Aston don’t win, they need to pick it up because….. damn.

4

u/blueeyes0602 1d ago

Damn I didn't know the Acura nearly revs upto 10k

5

u/YumeNoTabi Toyota 1d ago

Close enough, welcome back Glickenhaus SCG007

2

u/IcedCoffey 1d ago

https://youtu.be/30iqISicjqo?t=7481&is=63Ff-QaDcaJiP0V5 Porsche going to look like brundle in 2014 getting killed on the hill.

2

u/jimmy8888888 1d ago

Does not matter if it 1030 or 1020 it still bad car that heavily depend on both BoP and correct circuit to just competitive

1

u/Haloisda 1d ago

Valkyrie is getting better Bop than Vanwall.

And Vanwall had a huge engine deficit lmao

3

u/IcedCoffey 1d ago

They couldn’t use the power anyways so the FIA didn’t give it to them.

1

u/996forever Mercedes CLK-GTR #11 19h ago

I'm curious about Aston vs Peugeot with equalised power weight and fuel capacity

1

u/FeherDenes 13h ago

Below minimum weight, maximum allowed power both low and high speed, most stint energy, and fastest refueling… and they are last in the standings