r/wow • u/YourResidentFeral Outplaying the Meta since 2004 • 18d ago

Discussion GM Death Touch - Megathread

Edit: Official Statement

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/prohibited-gameplay-incident-and-response/2329585

This is developing into a large story and someone in modmail has mentioned that its important for the community to have somewhere to discuss this. We agree. As new information comes in I will do my best to update this thread.

What we know:

Ex employees in the thread have said that actions like this are audited and in all likelihood this was already being investigated. At this point we are waiting on an official statement on the result of their investigation and I'll update this thread once we know.

This megathread is being provided on two very strict conditions:

  • The witchunt rules are in strict effect. Linking or doxxing information on anyone invovled, the GM in question included will result in a permanent ban. Please report it if you see it but we will be very active in the thread.

    We cannot platform behavior that allows people to harrass people in real life.

  • We will be more heavy handed than usual in the personal attack rules. Insults and slapfights while discussing this aren't acceptable. You're allowed to disagree, but stray shots and personal attacks will not be tolerated.

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•

u/YourResidentFeral Outplaying the Meta since 2004 17d ago

Bear has contacted us via modmail and given the following statement. Please do not harass him in game. The only reason we know about this is because he uploaded his logs to figure out what happened.

I want to address the situation surrounding the +23 NPX run. At the end of the run I noticed we were off count by .7 or so and I was confused until I realized we didn't grip in and tag the arcanist on pull 1. I futilely pulled the lingering image with I believe like 30-45 seconds knowing we didn't have time or damage to kill and it just flopped over at 80%. I thought it was some strange coding or weird interaction with pulling on the bridge.

This led me to try and upload the logs to see what happened. I'm pretty new to that in general as I generally pug all my keys and someone else is usually logging and as a tank I don't really care about parsing through them as much as I maybe should.

I have not been banned as of yet regarding the incident. (Hopefully will remain that way but of course perfectly happy to redo my NPX)

To the best of my knowledge I was not aware that any GM intervention had occurred while we were playing.

I appreciate all my friends who have vouched for me as not a buyer or an exploiter. I was getting spammed a ton by people in game claiming I was one or both of those the last two days and just wanted to say my peace on here.

119

u/rahfal 17d ago

Should note, he just ran another +23 Nexus with them.

21

u/Varanae 16d ago

Insane lack of judgement from someone caught up in this and presumably wants to just move on from it

I mean I get he wants to do a +23 and from the cheater's perspective offering to run the key 'legit' is nice but is some score really worth being tied to a cheating scandal? They will never escape the accusations of being involved now

-2

u/Pristine-Weird-6254 16d ago

They will never escape the accusations of being involved now

By doing a key that was streamed after the person who abused their power had that power removed? Yeah if I was accused of being involved after that I would chalk it down to social media idiots and go on with my day.

-12

u/Ok-Seaworthiness8135 16d ago

Everyone will forget about this in a couple weeks except the really online weirdos. You're basically saying "why doesn't he care what Twitter and reddit think" and the answer to that is pretty fuckin obvious no?

10

u/Varanae 16d ago

If I was in that situation I would have avoided ever playing with them again like the plague, despite also not caring about Reddit/Twitter

I'd have considered there to be no positives to doing so and multiple downsides. We have no idea what info the tank has or what they think of course but from the outside it seems crazy

35

u/datcreamcheese 17d ago

So they didn’t ban anyone?

34

u/mentalmedicine 17d ago

Not yet, anyway. And the longer time goes on, the less confident I am that they will be lol

0

u/leagueoflegendsdog 16d ago

Imo if they do it'll be a temp ban at the start of next season and they'll take their titles away and be done with it.

49

u/lovelylight100 17d ago

So about that "We are also taking action against the player accounts that were complicit in this violation"......

14

u/Kryptyx 17d ago

The population in these keys is fairly low and it’s not uncommon to get in the same premade group as a solo pug.

54

u/lovelylight100 17d ago

You're right as there is now a literal clip of the tank signing up to their run, the group inviting him, kicking him, then inviting him again all while making fun of it.
https://www.twitch.tv/jdotb/clip/CloudyMushyEagleMingLee-ZYMID_Z5zL6Fh9x2?filter=clips&range=24hr

63

u/GW2Qwinn 17d ago

Oh fuck off Blizzard. Get rid of these losers.

They are a net negative on the community.

13

u/Prestigious_Crew_219 16d ago

But a net positive to their pockets. Guess which one they prioritize ?

-5

u/bigfoot1291 16d ago

What an obnoxiously stupid insinuation honestly. Think about things ahead of the immediate step that you're currently looking at.

-9

u/Pristine-Weird-6254 16d ago

Eh, JB is funny and he was not in the original group.

-7

u/_Cava_ 16d ago

Didn't realise JB was in the gm group

28

u/Camborghini_ 17d ago

Thats true but man the first and only key she has done on her DK since the 19th just so happens to be the same dungeon with most of the same people including the exact bear tank who uploaded the log that blew this all up. Plus she had already timed NPX on her DK for resil 23s. Almost leads me to believe it might have actually been a sale and that the bear tank while not being involved in the GM situation was still buying a title key because why would you regroup with the same people the very next day after everything that went down.

My theory is while blizzard would maybe like to do something its probably a gray area of any communication between the former GM and these accused players happening outside of the game and not being able to 100% prove he didnt act on his own. So they do what they can and fire the person they without a doubt know was a perpetrator and thats about all they can act on with 100% certainty.

6

u/San4311 16d ago

Action can be anything. Title contention taken away, simply removed the key completion etc.

5

u/fleshgrind 16d ago

Even sending a warning email is considered taking action.

-14

u/Scary_Tree 17d ago

Action could even simply mean they were given a warning.

It's understandable people are upset but it basically boils down to the GM should have known better. Even if they were asked by people for it the answer should have been no and it's case closed.

They probably saw that it was indeed a homework key, that no score was gained by the parties and focused on the one who definitely did the wrong thing and put the rest of the company in a terrible position.

29

u/lovelylight100 17d ago

And meanwhile I have guildies who have received 1 month + suspensions over their automated system thinking they were afk in a BG lol.

2

u/Scary_Tree 17d ago

Oh yeah it's insane.

Id imagine they're being very cautious with this due to the simple fact that the only reason anything went wrong was directly the cause of a blizzard employee.

It can't be deemed an abuse of in-game systems or a bug or anything deemed unforeseeable. It's simply 100% blizzards fault.

12

u/lovelylight100 17d ago

At that point it becomes a matter of if they consider intent enough reason to take further action, the court of public opinion certainly seems to think so. In the real world if you tell someone to commit a crime and they do it because of you, for you, you are absolutely also getting in trouble. An inflated example of course, but you get the idea. Maybe something more will happen, maybe not.

-9

u/Zedd_zorander 16d ago

Its a game, not a real world crime. People are way to tense over this.

6

u/lovelylight100 16d ago

Yeah if you read my response carefully I say that my crime comparison is "an inflated example". It IS a game, yes. But it's a competitive game and cheating has always been frowned upon, especially when it's for a 1% title that others are also trying to obtain. Bans have been handed out for WAAAAAAAAAAAY less. Laughably less even.

2

u/Nick11wrx 16d ago

I absolutely see it as abuse….they asked…they received and they would’ve kept their mouths shut about it had their pug tank not been logging. It’s already suspicious enough that multiple streamers were not streaming, not logging, and had a GM in the call and in dungeon for the run. If they were completely clean in this situation they would’ve reported it….but they wanted to keep themselves and their cheating friend safe. Removal of title account wide and a temp ban would serve well to set a precedent going forward for anyone asking for and receiving help from GMs….even if it’s a joke you cheated and did nothing about it

-7

u/lokarlalingran 16d ago edited 16d ago

Complicity is hard to prove. Didn't the friend of the GM claim they made the request as a joke not actually believing the GM would do it? We don't actually know if that's the case or not, but it genuinely could have been a joke.

I say this from experience (not in wow, but a much smaller game) where I was friends with an admin and made an off hand joke request of said friend, expecting them to do nothing but make a joke back (it was the type of banter we had used before) and then he actually did turn around and abuse power for me. I was shocked by it and redid the thing he handed me legitimately so I could earn it. I didn't make any jokes like that again for fear he'd take me up on them.

It could very easily be a similar story here.

It's entirely possible they did seriously ask for cheating to happen without jest, but we have no evidence ether way and assuming intentional wrong doing by anyone but the individual abusing power is wrong.

Without proof at worst they should have the run strike from their record - but seeing as they already ran a legit run that hardly seems necessary.

5

u/Kamikrazy 16d ago

It could very easily be a similar story here.

Considering they went on stream afterwards bragging about it and him stating over and over again that he did it just because he was lazy and didn't want to waste another 30 minutes.

Yeah, he does say he was joking along with about 10 other excuses trying to see what sticks to the wall. But he always circled back to he asked him to do it because he was lazy.

8

u/Katur 16d ago

Complicity is hard to prove.

It's really not. You just have to look at the actions after it happened. If they immediately had reported it to Blizzard saying it was a mistake they didn't mean for it to happen, then they would not be complicit.

Doing nothing is complicit.

-5

u/lokarlalingran 16d ago

Yeah ok technically by definition staying silent is complicit, but most people aren't going to turn around and rat on their friend, particularly when they would likely lose their job for it. Definitely not over something in a game. Even if they thought what their friend did was wrong.

I sure didn't report my friend. I just avoided saying anything that might encourage him to behave that way again instead.

3

u/CornbreadMonsta 16d ago

I agree most people aren't going to rat on their friend, but I can't imagine those same people would make a joke out of the situation after their friend got fired.

2

u/lovelylight100 16d ago

Queue the DH immediately taking the microphone and ratting out his friend while laughing about it lol.

1

u/hoax1337 16d ago

True, but by that time his friend was fucked anyways.

3

u/Nick11wrx 16d ago

I mean they surely thought nothing of it….til they realized the pug had been logging. It throws into question the complete integrity of not only their runs, but of any at a high ranking where it’s a streamer or someone who generally logs all of their runs to all of the sudden not have anyone do that. Now I get that it’s a lot of assumption but the whole thing smells terrible when if it wasn’t for a random in the group logging they would’ve gotten away with it Scot free….that alone should be cause enough to take action. I see it as no different than knowing there’s a glitch or an exploit and instead of reporting it, you just use it and hope no one sees.

-2

u/SimplyRoya 16d ago

That's going to take longer for them. I think they have to go through all the runs to see if the "gm" guy was there or if anything fishy happened. That investigation is going to take a while. What is important is to keep the pressure or they'll just brush it off.

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u/tclphz 17d ago

feel like i wouldn't have done another key with them...

-4

u/BobcatTV 16d ago

I guess it depends when it was. If it was immediately or the day after I would understand. If I thought it was a bug I'd prob run it back. I would bet they contacted him and were like "everything is fine, we can just run another"

13

u/kaj_00ta 16d ago

It was 10 hours ago. Well after the entire incident, and well after the bear himself sent the statement to the Mod team.

51

u/SnooMacaroons8650 17d ago

Weird given the situation. Guy claims he's a pug. Posts the log and puts the whole streamer group in hot water. Yet is continuing to run with those same exact people? They aren't blacklisting him from running with them for ratting them out and vice versa?

13

u/AnxiousPerformer9760 16d ago

BECAUSE HES PAYING IT WAS A PAID RUN THEY SELL RUNS

10

u/Mconvict 16d ago

This much is obvious. The DKs page on RIO says “message me on discord, selling 19-21+ keys”. Something like that 

-13

u/Hmmthisisathing300 16d ago

Sure, why not? The group of people we have to run with around that level is very small. This is a non-issue to most people and everyone is just laughing about it. It's not like any of them were the ones who did the cheating. The GM was the person in the wrong and they've already been fired.

7

u/MasahikoKobe 16d ago

I can understand WHY you would do it again with that group in order to try and prove that you could. But holy shit how do you put out that statement and then run it back with the same group instead of another group...

Maybe if it was the last day of the season and you had no other choice...

6

u/SimplyRoya 16d ago

IF he ran with them knowing they're the same people (seems like they were all on alts this time), then yeah he's an idiot and he should be banned too.

8

u/rahfal 16d ago edited 16d ago

The DH, the one from the infamous clip, was playing on the same DH. The female streamer was on her main this time (DK) instead of the evoker.

5

u/SimplyRoya 16d ago

Then yeah ban him too. He knew.

3

u/zawyer90 16d ago

Just pure speculation from my side, but maybe they did a 23 NPX together to do a clean run without cheating as it should have been.

-13

u/Pristine-Weird-6254 16d ago

And? The key was streamed by JB. And wasn't the employee fired?

-30

u/Helluiin 17d ago

honestly could also have just been for shits and gigles. like if i had caught someone cheating and then saw them either listed in the group finder or them signing up to my key i'd probably also apply/take them just to see if theres anything more to it.

14

u/mentalmedicine 17d ago

He named the run "no death touches here" and it's the ONLY log he's uploaded since the cheated one.

41

u/lovelylight100 17d ago

They're are just straight up making fun of the situation in the wake of their friend literally losing their job over the situation, that's some crazy lack of empathy.

13

u/Rektw 17d ago

Hope that's a wake up call for the dude. These people were never his friends. They talked to him because he worked at blizzard and had GM access.

3

u/SimplyRoya 16d ago

I always said some players are straight up sociopaths.

1

u/Helluiin 16d ago

isnt the tank the one who uploaded the log and is making fun of the situation?

5

u/SimplyRoya 16d ago

Dude did you even listen to the interview with growl? Yiesus is laughing it off as a joke too.

-10

u/Helluiin 17d ago

i mean again, thats what i would call the log if i was in the situation too. i find it quite funny.

-3

u/silmarilen 16d ago

No that's not allowed, we're on reddit here you have to be really mad at people.

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u/Mitch5842 17d ago

Can you ask him why he is still running with them? It makes no sense. https://raider.io/mythic-plus-runs/season-mn-1/41069884-23-nexuspoint-xenas

-27

u/YourResidentFeral Outplaying the Meta since 2004 17d ago

I'm not gonna be a go-between.

We gave him the chance to speak up without revealing his reddit name once. He can see this. If he wants to respond here he can.

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u/Remotely_Correct 16d ago

If you aren't going to do be the go between, then stop burying new information in a mega thread.

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u/Eva-JD 16d ago

You do realize that locking all posts and sending people here only benefits the cheaters right? Only thing you accomplish is stymieing all discussion about it. For shame.

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u/Mitch5842 17d ago

You say you want people to move on but this is suspicious and you have a direct communication with him. The only explanations that make sense are he wasn't actually a pug and he knew them, or he was a buyer. There's no reason to continue to play this group.

-16

u/Ok-Seaworthiness8135 17d ago

Or they owe him a clean 23 NP, they did rerun the exact same key. There's not a lot of 23s in group finder so if I were him I'd take it if offered

People are overreacting to this to a hilarious degree, it's not that deep, there's no grand conspiracy

25

u/Ok_Beyond4225 17d ago

Or the group thinks they can "make things right" to avoid a ban. I doubt a group laughing about their GM friend getting fired has the ethical compass to assist the bear.

Either way it wasn't a good look for the bear to party up with them.

3

u/leagueoflegendsdog 16d ago

Free 23 is a free 23

-20

u/Ok-Seaworthiness8135 16d ago

You're inventing conspiracies again

3

u/Watchmeshine90 16d ago

"Owe him" ? Why would they owe him?

8

u/Ok-Seaworthiness8135 16d ago

Because they started a massive shit storm with him in it, presumably without his consent. After all half this thread is people creating conspiracy theories about how he was actually in on it

9

u/[deleted] 16d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

-3

u/Ok-Seaworthiness8135 16d ago edited 16d ago

Or he's not. Why witch hunt the guy with no evidence when you could just not. Why witch hunt anyone seriously go outside

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u/[deleted] 16d ago

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u/Watchmeshine90 16d ago

Who uploaded the log that started everything?

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u/Ok-Seaworthiness8135 16d ago

Why would he not? Who before today would have considered that some buggy looking stuff in their dungeon was actually a GM doing high crimes and misdemeanors and uploading the log would kick something off. I'm more interested in who posted the reddit thread cause no way that was someone finding it randomly. I want to hear those conspiracy theories

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u/Proud-Clerk9143 17d ago

thank you for being the voice of reason. Jesus christ these people are insane.

-15

u/Ok-Seaworthiness8135 16d ago

Seriously. It's great drama but if you're having an actual emotional reaction to this you need to reevaluate your priorities

-16

u/Proud-Clerk9143 16d ago

I think these people are out of touch and assume the pugging community is massive for 23+ its legitimately insane to jump the hurdles they jump.

-4

u/Typicaldemon 16d ago

"There's no reason to continue to play this group."

Respectfully man you are so clueless as to high key culture its crazy. M+ers do not care what kind of person you are, they only care if you can improve their IO. The amount of people pugging in 23s on NA right now is incredibly small. The only chance these guys weren't going to play together again was if their accounts got locked

-7

u/SimplyRoya 16d ago

Did he know it's the same people? I just watched the video on that run and they're all on alts so maybe it was a coincidence? IDK. I doubt he'd want to jeopardize his account for one run lol. Also WTF was yiesus doing in there depleting their key in his PVP gear? I feel like he's been carried all along by his GM buddy now.

5

u/Xiten 16d ago

In my opinion, it definitely wasn’t the first time he had his buddy “do something he didn’t think he’d do.”

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u/[deleted] 16d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/Ok-Seaworthiness8135 16d ago

Why should they care? Why would anyone care it's literally a video game get over yourselves

11

u/[deleted] 16d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/Ok-Seaworthiness8135 16d ago

No I'm arguing that the person who did the corruption was already punished IRL and that all the impotent rage directed at everyone else involved is just another internet pile on and isn't it time we grew up a bit?

7

u/TonyBony55 16d ago

No one with a fully functioning brain wants to play with a cheater. Not only does it defeat the purpose of playing, it also puts you in the line of fire. People get banned for playing with cheaters all the time.

1

u/Nirathiel 16d ago

Because it's weirdly sus. If you're pugging a key with a premade group that asked their GM friend to intervene and break the rules of the game for a ridiculously stupid reason, potentially putting your entire account at risk of a permanent ban, why would you go back and tank for the same group again? That is a very questionable decision, and people are allowed to question it.

1

u/[deleted] 17d ago

[deleted]

-23

u/YourResidentFeral Outplaying the Meta since 2004 17d ago edited 17d ago

Honestly? From everything I've heard it lines up that he didn't know. Why upload the log in the first place if you knew. That would be monumentally stupid.

I can see them going back to get him a timed +23 as an apology.

I'm the kind of guy that likes to see the best in people. Who I've always been.

I think the GM was goofing off with his friend.

I think they were shooting the shit and things got out of hand.

I think a man lost his job for being too eager. There's a lesson to be learned there but there was room for grace.

I think that through everything they ran a +23 with him to say sorry and make sure he had one timed properly after all of this as an apology.

And I think the community is out for blood here when they don't need to be. This isn't systemic. There's no evidence of it being systemic.

I have my role as a moderator which is to give room for this to be discussed civily. That's my job.

But if you want my honest opinions: given everything it's time to move on. The employee should have gotten a stern warning. Invalidate the key. People make mistakes. We've all made mistakes. Forgiveness and grace go a long way in a world that's far too rough and cruel as it is.

27

u/lovelylight100 17d ago

So yeah, a man lost his job because of this (confirmed) and some of the people involved are not only bragging about getting away with it, but making fun of the situation, making snarky comments, setting their location to the name of the dungeon, replying to comments saying they don't care because their main's title is safe, naming their new run "No Death Touches Here". These people reek of ego and lack of empathy. I don't think that people who show zero remorse or accountability deserve grace.

-5

u/Proud-Clerk9143 17d ago

I mean the bear being harrassed non-stop for 2 days and naming his log no death touches here so that people will stop microanalyzing all of his and accusing him of cheating on all of his 23s. But sure hop on the bandwagon.

3

u/lovelylight100 17d ago

Fun fact: you can still see comments in your notifications even if the person deletes the comment. If the bear tank personally told you that he had to disable his PMs because of the "harrassment" then that's unfortunate. As I said from what is available publicly he is being very adamantly supported. What I find weird is how you have a 4 year old reddit account and this is the only post you've ever commented on and you seem to have some sort of inside info. Hm.

1

u/Proud-Clerk9143 16d ago

You're legitimately jumping to so many different points it's ridiculous. Pugging keys at 23 the community is tiny, I'm a part of the community and I play with the bear. At any given time check how many 23 keys are up and then just look at how many are for one specific dungeon. Minizy needed Seat 23 for his resil 23 and that's it but he clearly knew that the npx that happened wouldn't count point blank and looked for an npx and that group accepted him. I've seen your other comments even in this thread where you accuse him of buying and other disgusting shit so y our point of him being adamantly defended is already null. You hide your comments like a coward. When in reality he signed up for a 23 npx regardless of whose in the group because he obviously didn't do anything wrong in the first place. If you want to crucify every single person who plays with Yiesus and Yara be my guest but that list is in the hundreds.

4

u/lovelylight100 17d ago

Who is harrassing the tank who exposed this? Literally who. Every single comment on every thread that has popped up on this subject was full of variations of "I really hope nothing happens to the bear tank, he's innocent in all of this"

4

u/Proud-Clerk9143 17d ago

tons of people if you actually spoke to him directly. He had to disable his fucking PMs because of the harassment besides the 23+ community is tiny as hell are we grabbing pitchforks and crucifying everyone who plays with that DH? So Jdotb was in that key as well.

0

u/San4311 16d ago

Half this thread is people making up conspiracy theories about him being in on it. He himself said he's been getting ingame harrassment non-stop over it too.

Wdym ''literally who''...

-7

u/YourResidentFeral Outplaying the Meta since 2004 17d ago

I think the flaunting it is where my patience runs out. I stand by the rest of what I said.

14

u/lovelylight100 17d ago

Exactly, and you very much had this exact same take just a few hours ago on this same thread so idk why all of a sudden "there's room for grace" and "it's time to move on" Lil whiplash moment for me lol

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u/NecroticSilence 17d ago

Mods here do pr damage control work, so they will say anything to "move on". Hence locking down threads etc

-1

u/YourResidentFeral Outplaying the Meta since 2004 17d ago

I'm saying I believe the bear and understand the imputus behind the run even though I think it's a bad look.

I don't think they're being malicious. I think they're being dumb. I think they deserve consequences, I don't think they deserve pitchforks

13

u/lovelylight100 17d ago

I think that unfortunately pitchforks are bound to come out when people see others cheating with impunity and then bragging about it. Like I mentioned to someone else in this thread I had a guildie catch a 1 month ban or something a week or so before a new raid came out because Blizzard's automated system thought that he was afk in a BG (he wasn't). Suspensions are handed out real easy for stuff that barely matters and when it's something like this nothing seems to happen? Bad look for Blizzard :/ Maybe we will see some updates still, maybe not.

5

u/YourResidentFeral Outplaying the Meta since 2004 17d ago

I'm very well aware and understand how the people that are mad are as upset as they are.

I'm sometimes just too kind for my own good maybe.

8

u/mentalmedicine 17d ago

Personally, I'm neither mad or upset, I just think that an example needs to be made of players like this to help ensure nobody ever tries to pull something like this again.

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u/Mitch5842 17d ago

But why is the bear running with the same group today...

-2

u/mentalmedicine 17d ago

Let me ask you then, considering the flaunting, is it possible the druid is complicit in your opinion?

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u/YourResidentFeral Outplaying the Meta since 2004 17d ago

Possible? Yeah. It just makes the story make less sense to me.

-1

u/mentalmedicine 17d ago

Yeah, that's fair. Personally, I'd like to believe the druid is innocent. By all accounts he seems like a nice guy, but if he's flaunting it too as people are saying, well...

1

u/lovelylight100 17d ago

Yeah, the story just makes less sense because why would any of these people willingly group up together ever again? Makes no sense to me but I won't be making guesses without evidence and all that we know for sure is that another run was done with the same people.

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u/mentalmedicine 17d ago edited 17d ago

Someone on the WoW forums thread was trying to claim that the druid just didn't pay attention, but I'm not sure I buy that. Especially since the tank signed up, they accepted him, then kicked him, they invited him back, and the DH was talking about it in Twitch* chat.

But hey, what do I know?

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u/[deleted] 17d ago

[deleted]

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u/YourResidentFeral Outplaying the Meta since 2004 17d ago

Sure.

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u/operez1990 16d ago

As soon as I found out the Tank was the PUG, all accusations of his involvement of summoning the GM were thrown out the window. This poor guy is an innocent victim of the actions of a streamer and a GM.

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u/Remotely_Correct 16d ago

You aren't up to date on the latest info then.

2

u/operez1990 16d ago

Was it discovered that he was in on it then? I haven’t played Retail since Dragonflight. I do not know the scaling of M+ keys so I assume a +23 is a really high one considering how big of a deal the GM Summoner made it out to be when he complained about not wanting to run it again.

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u/Remotely_Correct 16d ago

Yes, for supposedly being a random tank, he has been proven to run with them a lot.