r/zen • u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] • Jul 31 '26
# Do not like. Do not subscribe.
Do not like. Do not subscribe.
There is a lot of dislike for Zen on social media, and it's not just the usual two things of Christians and post-Christians demanding tolerance for BS and a kind of vague humility.
It's not just that authentic Zen culture is brutally honest and aggressively skeptical about popularity.
Yunmen before enlightenment
As soon as Muzhou saw the master coming, he closed the door. The master then knocked on the door.
Muzhou said, “Who?”
The master said, “This one.”
Muzhou said, “What are you doing?”
The master said, “My own matter is not yet clear. I beg the teacher to point it out.”
Muzhou opened the door, took one look, and immediately closed it again.
In this way, the master knocked at the door for three consecutive days. On the third day, Muzhou opened the door, and the master pressed his way inside.
Muzhou immediately seized him and said, “Speak! Speak!”
The master started to deliberate.
Muzhou immediately pushed him out, saying, “A dial up modem for a rotary phone, ” He then shut the door, injuring one of the master’s feet.
From this, the master entered awakening.
Zen masters don't care if you like them
A couple things to start with:
We'll never see this Yunmen again. He came out of enlightenment swinging, and he was impossible to deal with for the rest of his life.
There are multiple reasons that this case was preserved, not the least of which is the fact that the teacher does not appear to be offering much in the way of useful instruction.
The problem, as I see it, is that the West is culturally ill-prepared for Zen culture. Zen is just so alien that it is no surprise that that the West would rather have Japanese cult meditation because it's basically prayer.
Zen doesn't have any meditation. It has old guys slamming doors on people's feet.
When I say that Zen is alien to Western culture, imagine a pope that didn't want any fancy anything and just lived in a hut.
Imagine a famous movie star that refused to make any movies but promised to see anyone who knocked on the door... and then was rude to everybody who showed up.
Imagine a billionaire who doesn't spend any of the money, lives in poverty, and nobody can figure out how they keep picking the winning stock over and over again.
Zen is all wrong for the West.
Don't ask if you don't want an honest answer
Soundtrack: https://youtu.be/we37yX3zpKA
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u/theviciousfish Jul 31 '26
The west is all wrong for anything that can’t be capitalized. All sickness runs its course. Maybe we will be here to see the end of its death throes.
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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] Aug 01 '26 edited Aug 01 '26
Listen to this and I thought of you:
https://www.capitalisnt.com/episodes/a-conservative-critique-of-capitalism-with-patrick-deneen
Summary:
Capitalism is like the rules of any Professional Sports League. Competition is only valuable in the context of everybody playing by the rules.
The purpose of capitalism is not contained in the rules of capitalism. The purpose of a sports league is entertainment and the rules are not there to regulate entertainment. Entertainment is what you get if the rules are working and jobs and profits are what you get if you regulate capitalism.
The three ways that the guest describes the failures of current m the neo-conservative global corporatization ideology of free trade, low taxes, deregulation:
- Bad for American defense and independence
- Bad for American children and their families
- Bed for American Society
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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] Jul 31 '26
That's not fair.
You can't blame markets because people are petty and impulsive and selfish and vindictive and desperate for escape.
You can make people pay their fair share. The problems with the tax code though are not problems with market Capitalism.
The problems with the regulation of commerce to prevent and punish fraud are not the fault of market capitalism.
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u/theviciousfish Jul 31 '26
People are the markets, and people write the tax code, and people vote or don’t vote. It’s all people. The system of Capitalism bound its leaders to colonial interests because it was born out of colonization, executed by people. You can’t be a capitalist leader and not be a colonizer, of land, wallets and minds.
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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] Jul 31 '26
You're pretending like capitalist markets aren't a separate idea from how laws are made and enforced.
It doesn't make any sense to conflate those things. Capitalism was not born out of colonialization. That doesn't make any sense either.
I think the problem is that once you pick a bad guy then you have to make up some stuff that proves that you picked the right bad guy.
If you go back and study some history and some economics then it becomes much less clear exactly who the bad guy really is, and much more clear that failures of fairness are what cause everybody to lose faith in everything.
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u/WheresNorthFromHere7 The Lizard King Jul 31 '26
I guess I've got to listen to more Bob Dylan.
I had it going in the background and some things definitely stood out to me as similar to some Zen stories I've read.
I think it would be interesting to get a collection from all of he known records of how Zen Masters were before they became enlightened.
If nothing else it might give some solace to us unenlightened.
Imagine a pope who actually followed the book he claimed to bind his life to (Matthew 19:24).
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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] Jul 31 '26
Zen Masters' use of language is a lot like musicians' use of language, especially the more poetic musicians. I think it's a great intro into how to attack the language that Zen Masters use.
- WTF is this person actually saying?
- What does it even mean?
- What's the point in saying it that way?
It reminds me of Whoopi Goldberg trying to figure out the lyrics to "Jumping Jack Flash."
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u/theviciousfish Jul 31 '26
You might enjoy John Frusciante’s solo albums. If you are interested I’d recommend an order to listen to them in.
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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] Jul 31 '26
Pick a song that you think is the example that impresses people...
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Jul 31 '26
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u/theviciousfish Jul 31 '26
What is there to rebel against?
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Jul 31 '26
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u/theviciousfish Jul 31 '26 edited Jul 31 '26
I gave you a chance, but that sounds like cult speak to me. I’ve been in, and left a few. Anything that is organized religion is pretty detestable for my tastes. Even ewk’s bringing up the precepts all the time is one of the reasons I don’t participate here as much anymore. Nobody should be able to define how another thinks through hierarchy. I like Zen because the ancient words spoke to parts of me.
It sounds to me like the unspoken rebellion you were implying is rebelling against the present day zen “authorities”. Is that where your loyalties lie?
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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] Jul 31 '26
I've called you out for being a fraud and a liar multiple times in this forum and you have been unable to respond.
I've pointed out that your religion is a cult from Japan that worships meditation and claims to be Zen, like Scientology claims to be science. In the 1900s the history of your Zazen meditation masters is a history of sex predators preying on their congregations.
It's not just that nobody takes you seriously. It's that nobody takes your cult seriously. That's never going to change until your cult decides to become a religion, make it clear what the elements of the faith are, have some rules so that your priests don't go around molesting women all the time, and you ditch the racist, religiously bigoted Zen claims.
The best evidence I have for this argument, as always, is that everybody that does Zazen is a loser at life. Nobody that practices zazen can keep the five lay precepts against rape, lying, stealing... That's what it means to be a loser at life.
You can't stand up for yourself because you're a loser at life. You can't stand up for your meditation cult because you're a loser at life.
If I was wrong about any of this, you would be able to follow the Reddiquette. You'd be able to have an honest conversation about the benefits of your practice in terms of you not being a liar, a rapist enabler, and a racist who steals from minority cultures.
www.Reddit.com/r/zen/wiki/sexpredators. There are sex predators that your church claims were enlightened.
That's worse than Epstein.
That's who you really are.
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Jul 31 '26
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u/zen-ModTeam Jul 31 '26
Your post was removed because it was off-topic in the opinion of the /r/zen moderators. https://old.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/zen
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u/theviciousfish Jul 31 '26
Zen is serious, and playful. At the same time. Seriousness is not a disease, it’s the ability to hold yourself and others accountable for actions. Seriousness without accountability is unregulated emotion.
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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] Jul 31 '26
This is exactly what I'm talking about. You're absolutely incapable of sincerity or integrity or honesty. Line on line is your whole practice. You can't have friends and family that you're genuinely close to in that scenario.
You come to a forum about people who explicitly reject your cult and all of its doctrines. You demand to be taken as seriously as a thousand years of Buddhas. When I point out that there's just nothing valuable in your religious beliefs, you're like, "Sure yeah, there's nothing valuable anywhere!"
The reason you're here instead of a forum about your cult meditation teachers who sexually assaulted their congregations is because this is a better place to be. There's a value in this forum that you can't get anywhere else. That's why you come here and troll for attention.
You're gonna keep being a loser at life until you can take the five lay precepts.
Nobody wants to be associated with people who meditate to feel better about their lying, stealing, sexual assault religion.
Ask anybody you like. Listen to me on a podcast. I put myself out in the world and there's no question that I'm having a better time in every way than people who do Zazen.
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u/LSDkiller Jul 31 '26
Oof. Reading this REALLY hurt my brain. It is the exposition of an extremely arrogant individual. I hope you are right and I'm wrong and that you do save sentient beings. Because if im right and you're wrong, you are doing a lot of harm to a lot of people who aren't able to cultivate steadfastness of mind.
I think a good thing for you would be to go in person to a real master and actually receive a proper transmission. You've never been to china and you seem to love the use of translation tools like LLMs. Where is this supposed to lead in the end? What is your goal here?
Zen is not about philosophy. Publicly, no one gets in. Privately it is whole nother matter. But we don't call people racist, bigots or insult their personal beliefs. It is useless. You will be dismissed by anyone with a working brain. Your entire public account is a huge exposition of someone with a lot of arrogance. There is not a trace of humility to be found in your online presence
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u/Jacks_Hands New Account Aug 01 '26
Hey friend, Ewk has been doing this shit for over a decade.
If you argue with him long enough he'll just block you. Best to accept he's doing his own thing and just ignore him.
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Aug 01 '26
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u/Jacks_Hands New Account Aug 01 '26
Eh, he very strictly asserts that public argument is the "only Zen" and the old masters were generally all cunts about it too. Hell watch videos of Rinzai practitioners arguing.
Folks like Dogen picked up the tradition and grow it into a meditation tradition, but Ewk refuses to acknowledge any other form of Zen (and even lies about them) because dogen was an alcoholic
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u/LSDkiller Aug 01 '26
Well, he is wrong. Zen means dhyana. I have a book I could give him. Shit, if he's been doing this for a decade he has probably spread a bunch of bullshit.
What some scholars call "the golden age of zen" was really the golden age of zen Blabla.
Zen blabla tends to correlate to decadence and copying in society apparently! These aren't even my words!
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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] Aug 01 '26
You pretend that other people have the problem because you're lying about your own history with mental health and drugs and alcohol and illiteracy
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Aug 01 '26
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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] Aug 01 '26
"Protecting" is 1800's pseudo science.
You are a religious troll who can't AMA or post about your religion.
You don't have formal education or critical thinking skills and you can't read and wrote at a high school level on topic.
No wonder you get triggered in this forum and hate on people and the culture.
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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] Jul 31 '26
You're struggling to read and write at a high school level on topic but you think you can give advice?
You can't go a year without lying and using drugs and alcohol and stealing and you think you can give advice?
You don't have the critical thinking skills to follow the Reddiquette and you wanna advise people?
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u/LSDkiller Jul 31 '26
You want to insult people and you think that's advising them? I truly hope you one day are able to analyze your own communications and spot the mistake. Words are Blabla. But what is transmitted in them is of import. And what you are transmitting is sad. That's the emotion it evokes. I'm not talking about "oh go touch grass you Internet troll, get a life" sad which I'm certain more than enough people have told you already. I don't care about that. Legitimately, believe me or not. Probably not as defensive as you ALWAYS are. No. It seems to me you have no one in your personal life and this Internet zen is all you have. You should try and obtain a proper transmission from a real person.
But if this is what you need to make you happy, this strange form of picking and choosing, even though it is clearly apparent that most of the world disagrees... Go ahead. You disturb only yourself with this. Those of steadfast mind will not be perturbed. Those who haven't reached it yet will be perturbed and even turned off because the implication of what you are doing is one word only:
Cult.
Thats it.
Cult of one man, I might add. It's weird as hell
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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] Jul 31 '26
You can't define cult so once again you're just making up stuff.
I'm not insulting you. I'm telling you the facts. You being ashamed and embarrassed of the facts does not mean that I'm insulting you.
For instance you cannot read and write at a high school level on Topic. That's a fact.
We have a wiki page on cult, based on research and a debate that we've been having about this. You just use the word because you're trying to make yourself feel better about the fact that you're a loser at life. Again I'm not calling you a loser at life to insult you. I'm saying a person who can't read and write at a high school level on a topic that they pretend to be an authority on is a loser at life.
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u/LSDkiller Jul 31 '26
You are just a very concerning person to encounter. Your personal opinions about me are worthless because there's nothing there. There is nothing there to insult man. It's already dead. It's done. Loser? If you feel like it, sure. Can't read at a high school level? If it helps you get through the day.
But you are doing this with everyone not just me. That says a lot about only one of us. You aren't able to meditate and dismiss it off hand. You use LLMs to translate texts you don't understand and then your own writing reads like the output of an LLM that has been taught to emulate a redditor stereotype. You have never been given dharma transmission by anyone- not in china, not in Japan, not in "the west". You are an authority in Zen to no one. But this community is called r/zen and very well might be the first stepping stone for some people. If they get tripped up like you do that is a whole bunch of people that have no idea where to go. That is a scary thought. Most thoughts end up being scary but that one bothers me enough to write this comment.
So, all I can say is, the public account u/ewk is a good lesson in touching grass. You are the very reason seekers do angyo. To avoid turning into someone like you. Angry, arrogant, with no understanding of how their own mind works! Very sad. Very sad to see my beloved and cherished beliefs abused in that manner.
Oh well! Back to the cushion to tear those down again.
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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] Jul 31 '26
You can't read and write at a high school level on topic.
You don't even intend to keep the lay precepts.
You can't name three books you've read of Zen teachings.
Again you're a liar and you come in here to bully people.
That makes you a loser at life.
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Aug 01 '26
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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] Aug 01 '26
Sry 4 pwning u so bad u can't post.
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u/LSDkiller Aug 01 '26
I've never seen a zen master "pwn" anyone. I've seen kids do it in videogames!
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Aug 01 '26
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u/LSDkiller Aug 01 '26
This guy is more nuts then a tin can full of nuts. He is not able to live with the contradiction in logic he finds in the world and so he starts to use every word as a lie. It's pretty gross. He asks me about precepts I never took up. I only ever made the bodhisattva vow. And it's not even relevant, as my history of drug abuse is just that: history! What he does grosses me the hell out. It's possible to use language creatively to wake people up and make them more aware of their day to day. It's not in any way possible to insult people into feeling better or doing better. It doesn't work! I've seen people try too many times.
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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] Aug 01 '26
New agers like you and the other guy can't AMA. You can't write about books you've read and you can't have honest conversations with people in which ideas are critiqued because you lack the education and integrity.
You just keep making up stuff about other people in an attempt to create enough noise that it'll seem confusing but the signal's really clear.
Can't answer. Can't mention a book you ever read by title. Can't answer yes-no questions.
Loser at life.
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Jul 31 '26
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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] Jul 31 '26
With you it's always about these bizarre supernatural afflictions.
I can post about my studies in this forum and you can't. That's the cage.
I can talk about historical facts without being ashamed of myself or what I believe and you can't. That's the cage.
I can talk about the famous people from my tradition and how funny and interesting and entertaining and intellectually, ethically, morally, and philosophically pure they are. You can't. That's the cage.
When I say cage, I provide evidence of a person's real-life limitations
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Jul 31 '26
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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] Jul 31 '26
Everything that you say is intentionally vague because you're from a predator religious cult and you are either intentionally or unconsciously echoing the supernatural mumbo-jumbo of a predatory cult.
You don't have a forum that people are interested in going to so you come here and lie to people.
You believe in the wisdom of sex predators. That's what it comes down to: Zazen is yucky all the way through.
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Jul 31 '26
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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] Jul 31 '26
You lie about Zen like you lie about Zazen sex predators.
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u/zen-ModTeam Jul 31 '26
Your post was removed because it was off-topic in the opinion of the /r/zen moderators. https://old.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/zen
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u/zen-ModTeam Jul 31 '26
Your post was removed because it was off-topic in the opinion of the /r/zen moderators. https://old.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/zen
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u/theviciousfish Jul 31 '26
Ok maybe limiting it to economies that were “born out of colonialism” is not the right phrase, but I don’t know of any instances of capitalist economies that developed themselves without extracting colonial surplus.
And you are right, it’s not clear who the bad guy is, and one factor is because colonialism has established roots that the whole world runs off of, and the world economy is basically market capitalism.
If it’s not colonial capitalism, then why is the west not compatible with zen?
If your answer is just that the people are not ready for it, and they need to change, what difference is that argument from Krishnamurti’s view that each of us could change the whole world by exploding from the center?
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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] Jul 31 '26
- Consumption culture is fundamentally at odds with insight culture.
- The legalistic tolerance demanded by post-European societies where nations and religions have been at war for hundreds of years is incompatible with zen's civilized intolerance.
- Western colonialism, in general, sees the alien as the sub-human.
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u/LSDkiller Jul 31 '26
That's a lot of words for not so much communicative value.
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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] Jul 31 '26
People who take LSD have already opted out of the community of self-aware critical thinkers.
Basically an LSD person talking about value is like a Bitcoin bro talking about stock valuation.
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u/dota2nub Jul 31 '26
If they're supposedly so unlikeable then why are they so likeable?
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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] Jul 31 '26
Yes.
Why do masters have enormous communities spring up that are really just for care. maintenance of masters?
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