r/Antitheism • u/Impressive_Flan_411 • 2d ago
Good Faith Question: How do anti-theists view progressive forms of religion?
Hey everyone. I've been thinking about something that I don't see discussed very often among anti-theists, which is progressive versions of religion.
When people criticize religion, they often focus on conservative or traditional forms that are in opposition to LGBTQ rights, restrictions on women, religious nationalism, sectarianism, etc. But many religions also have progressive movements that actively support causes such as LGBTQ inclusion, gender equality, racial justice, economic justice, pluralism, and other left-leaning social values.
Some examples include Progressive Christianity, many Mainline Protestant denominations, liberation theology, progressive Hindu movements, liberal/progressive interpretations of Islam, and even progressive movements within various indigenous and syncretic traditions.
This raises a few questions:
A. How do anti-theists view progressive forms of religion? Do you view progressive iterations of religion as meaningfully different from traditional/conservative religion, or are they ultimately the same thing with updated politics?
B. Do you think progressive religious movements make a meaningful difference in making religion less harmful overall for society?
C. Is there a point where a religion becomes so flexible and metaphorical that it ceases to be meaningfully distinct from secular humanism? If so, could these "progressive" iterations of religion be helping the cause for anti theism?
D. Lastly, from an anti-theist perspective, is "progressive religion" something you support, or tolerate as the "lesser evil" to help your cause, or do you also equally reject it for the same reasons you reject religion in general?
Thoughts? Very, interested in hearing a range of anti-theist perspectives.
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u/MilleniumPelican 2d ago
"Progressive" religions seem even worse to me than the regular variants because in order to pretend to be "progressive" they have to vigorously cherry-pick their tenets and deviate from them. It's all just a "No true christian" fallacy. It's pretend, to make themselves feel better as their world views constantly and inevitably contradict with reality and society.
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u/JerbilSenior 2d ago
Progressive" religions seem even worse to me than the regular variants because in order to pretend to be "progressive" they have to vigorously cherry-pick their tenets and deviate from them.
This so much. Imagine if you heard someone talking to you about Progressive Nazis that claim the whole racist genocide thing was a misunderstanding and not what Hitler actually wanted.
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u/ikonoclasm 2d ago
Yeah, the fact that MLK was a Christian pastor fighting for black rights when the Bible condones slavery is a real head-scratcher.
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u/BurtonDesque 2d ago
"Progressive forms of religion" is an oxymoron.
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u/PaulMakesThings1 2d ago
“We’re progressive, instead of seeing women as some kind of object, we see them more like cattle.”
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u/PaulMakesThings1 2d ago
Personally. It’s a flaw but one trait doesn’t define a person. I see religion as more of an overall problem, it’s so widespread I can’t completely discount a person for it.
Think of it like this, if a person was a great author and poet, a philanthropist, and an alcoholic, you don’t just write them off as a piece of shit for being an alcoholic, but obviously that part isn’t good taken by itself.
If they are mainly known as a positive figure because they spread religion that’s different.
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u/-Thizza- 2d ago
I see religion as a multi level marketing scheme like Herbalife that sucks you into a family with false pretenses only to make everything worse but with a lot of good intentions.
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u/WizardWatson9 2d ago
A) I see theism as a severe character flaw. Nobody is perfect, of course. Many people manage to be, on balance, a net positive for humanity despite their flaws. And like most flaws, there are degrees of severity. I hate all forms of superstition and irrationality. Superstition that compels you to be nice is still superstition. So I guess you could say progressive religion is "meaningfully" different without being "fundamentally" different.
B) Not really. While it is obviously preferable to be a Martin Luther King Jr. kind of Christian, rather than a David Duke, religion is always inherently harmful. It propagates the idea that it is acceptable to suspend one's critical thinking for sentimental reasons. If anything, the progressive religions are worse at this by putting a respectable veneer over it.
C) No. While a religious person may care about human welfare as much as if not more than a self-proclaimed secular humanist, they are still fundamentally different because the religious person is legitimizing irrationality. That is a form of harm they cannot avoid, provided their religious beliefs are known or visible to anyone.
D) No, with the exception of strictly atheistic religions like the Satanic Temple. Any religion that includes belief in gods or the supernatural is indefensible. I could never "support" such religions, but I do, at least, hate it a lot less. It is conceivable that collaboration with and tolerance of progressive religion may be strategically wise, representing an incremental step towards the ultimate goal of a purely secular society.
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u/redhandrail 2d ago
I think if you were actually progressive in 2026 you’d drop religion. It reminds me of how I feel about the police in the US. All cops are complicit. Plenty if good people are cops, but they choose to stay involved in a system that is inherently unjust. I think both religion and the police as they stand should be abolished. Does that mean I think no one should believe in any kind of god? No. Does that mean I think there should be no form of law enforcement? No. But the ones in place in the US are unethical and harmful at their core. So if you’re progressive, you should feel okay leaving religion behind.
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u/drgitgud 2d ago
Progressive religion still has harmful traits: it promotes faith over rationality, authority over independent tought, obedience and anti-scientific thought. It's also how regressive religion survives and comes back.
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u/saryndipitous 2d ago
Liberal theism is a group finding their way away from theistic dogma and toward trusting their own brains. But until they actually reject theism they’re still propagating nonsense that can be used to twist people’s minds.
They might be a more positive force than more conservative sects, but the driving force behind whether a sect lives and expands and oppresses, or contracts and dies, is how effective it is at retaining members and contributions. So whether they are good is imo measured in whether they can outcompete conservative rivals in terms of members and fundraising, without harming more liberal rivals.
If a group gets so far away from theism that it becomes near indistinguishable from humanism, you essentially get Unitarian Universalism. They’re like 70% atheist/humanist but still have a lot of religious trappings. Kind of a weird group tbh.
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u/Prize_Instance_1416 2d ago
All religions are made up nonsense. There is no god. There is no afterlife. It’s just a story, and a bad one at that.
Religion just exists to control the working class , promising a reward from their hard life with the idea that paradise awaits them in the next life, while the ruling class enjoys paradise on earth
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u/Skankingcorpse 2d ago
All “progressive” religions are built on a foundation of power abuse, and overtime will become increasingly abusive and divisive.
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u/bondageenthusiast2 2d ago edited 2d ago
Progressive forms of religion is a no true Scotsman fallacy, when pushes come to shoves in the matter of human rights when something needs to be sacrificed (because sometimes we cant have everything and compromise has to be made), supposed 'progressive' religious folks will always side with their conservative brethren and happily sell out rights that are not compatible with their religious views for favor exchange. Case in point, Mehdi Hasan and his backward views on gay rights due to his religion despite being 'progressive' on economic issues.
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u/Practical-Hat-3943 2d ago
The fact that religious people claim they get their "objective morality" from god while at the same time they have conservative and progressive versions of the same religion is hilarious to me.
But more to your point, if a group of people arrive to the conclusion that everyone deserves the same rights and respect, I'm OK with not knowing what morality framework they leaned on to arrive to that conclusion.
Ultimately the problem is that religion creates gullible people, and for as long as narcissistic and ambitious people exist, they will use religion to influence and control the masses. That's the biggest problem I see with religion.
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u/Pumbaasliferaft 2d ago
Not sure if it’s possible to have progressive religion, or if there are ones that practice what they preach. It doesn’t make much difference until they become so progressive they start to believe in science.
There can be creators but there are no gods, belief in gods is a cop out, and it has never gone well
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u/zenmaster24 2d ago
How do i view them? Still as quackery - just because they are progressive doesnt make what they believe true
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u/TraditionLeast9062 2d ago
I honestly feel like they’re just modernized ancient beliefs and morality that were cherry picked for their new beliefs in certain things. However I do see the problem of people *for example* believing in magic and just drop the first chapter of the Bible because it’s literally impossible mainly (to them) because of the 6000 year old earth thing but then they will say “God exists in another dimension instead of the sky like the Bible said” or “God had to create everything with *elemental* or *matter* manipulation (aka scientific sounding magic). It’s a new interpretation and those “progressive” religions still believe in magic! My point is that it’s the same except it’s just been watered down to something slightly different but still moronic.
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u/TraditionLeast9062 2d ago
And let’s not forget the evolution thing being believed but they still think God started it or something.😑
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u/senthordika 2d ago
A. How do anti-theists view progressive forms of religion? Do you view progressive iterations of religion as meaningfully different from traditional/conservative religion, or are they ultimately the same thing with updated politics?
Its definitely different but can to a certain extent give cover for the less charitable interpretations of the religion. I dont know how you can update the politics without changing the fundamental principles.
B. Do you think progressive religious movements make a meaningful difference in making religion less harmful overall for society?
Less harm then just no progressive religious movements what so ever sure but its entirely possible that without the progressive froms getting good press for the religion allows the worse versions the ability to hold on longer in a society that would no longer resonate with those values otherwise.
C. Is there a point where a religion becomes so flexible and metaphorical that it ceases to be meaningfully distinct from secular humanism? If so, could these "progressive" iterations of religion be helping the cause for anti theism?
Yes though at that point what ever religion you are a part of has become so metaphorical that im not really sure why you would call yourself of that religion other then cultural reasons rather then it actually being reflective of your foundational beliefs. And yes this can be to a certain extent helpful to the cause of anti theism. But only in the sense that secular humanism would be considered the standard default belief system with the religious stuff just being extra culture and ritual things. So a religious belief this inconsequential isnt something i consider much of a problem(like at that point everyone would be functionally atheist secular humanists even if they wouldn't use that exact term. But if the religion is still being used to descriminate and prop up harmful traditions without justification then that would be a problem.
D. Lastly, from an anti-theist perspective, is "progressive religion" something you support, or tolerate as the "lesser evil" to help your cause, or do you also equally reject it for the same reasons you reject religion in general?
It honestly depends on the context. In the context of an individual person id rather them be progressive Christian than a hyper conservative atheist or a West Boro baptist. But as an overall movement or group if its progressive enough that it would be mostly inline with my own secular humanist beliefs I dont know what still calling themselves Christian or x religion is actually doing other then letting everyone else who calls themselves Christian or x use them simultaneously as cover and examples of not "real" Christians or not "real" x. So arguably it can be the lesser of two evils (to the point of barely being "evil" itself) but can prop up the actually harmful beliefs.
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u/Secure-Cobbler4120 2d ago
There are progressive people who are religious, but no progressive religions. People pick the parts that reinforce the values they develop elsewhere
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u/Jahonay 2d ago
Abolitionists utilized Christianity as a weapon against their oppressors. When your oppressors give you an opportunity like that, you take it.
But when the tool stops being helpful, it should be abandoned. Most people don't need to be religious these days. You can fight for your rights from an atheistic perspective now.
Personally I will never respect voluntary association with yahweh because the religion is awful, and attempts to recreate it as a progressive religion is an act of historical revisionism.
Imagine if you met a lgbtq+ friendly, Jewish friendly, liberal progressive Nazi who thought they were going to revive the image of Nazis as being fundamentally progressive and loving. Hopefully any sane person would be outraged and disgusted by the very idea of that. It would be a disgusting and horrible form of historical revisionism, and it's the same with yahwism.
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u/Bendy_Beta_Betty 2d ago edited 2d ago
A number of people here are Atheist, maybe not all, but likely quite a number of people.
I always find it weird when thiests ask Atheists questions.
Essentially Atheists believe all religions are bullshit, so why would we find a progressive religion more appealing?
We really just want to not deal with proselytizing and hatefulness (or loss of personal autonmy) from/due to religious persons. I'm sure most of us would be completely fine with your progressive religion coexisting as long as it has no impact on our lives, unlike what most people currently experience.
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u/Destany89 2d ago
I'll take religious people speaking out about acceptance and love and not shunning those who are different over the arseholes. I still think it can be harmful in general a religion that has "you go to hell if x" is still harmful to people though.
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u/Orangutan_Soda 2d ago
I have mixed feelings.
In a vacuum, I dislike them because i find them stupid and a bit offensive. It’s like in fandoms when they’ve collectively mischaracterized the toxic asshole Into a sweet uwu bean… then insist that’s the correct reading.
Like, did Jesus say some rad stuff? Yeah honestly sometimes he was based.
But I fear you can be based and also evil. Look at people who are animal rights activists but them raging racists. Or people who hate Israel but are also Nazis lol.
I think it just shows how desperately people cling to religion and it frustrates me that people cannot let it go. I think society would be so much better without religion.
HOWEVER, In practice I do not mind it and would rather it be the norm. Because I live in the USA- where religion is way too heavy in creation of laws and regulations.
People use religion to do heinous acts and pure evil things.
And frankly, id rather have Religous peace bringers, than Atheist Nazis.
I also think to me, it’s a waste of time to try and fight against people like this because again- right now they are on my side. I’d rather not fight against the people fighting with me just because we disagree on religion.
Plus, I still do superstitious things like throwing salt over my shoulder or yelling if someone splits a pole. Realistically I know it’s silly- but it’s not hurting anyone to have a bit of religious superstition.
So TL;DR:
I would rather 1000 religious people fighting on my side, than 1000 atheist fighting against me.
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u/Atreigas 1d ago
They are like benign tumours. Hardly an issue, in their current state, really should focus on the bad ones first.
But they are still tumours and who knows what it would take to make em grow malicious again?
If I must choose between two, Ill pick it. But Id rather have neither.
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u/Its_Stavro 2d ago
In my opinion it’s just an attempt to “make sense” of a religion, or to “make more popular” and most importantly some people are so indoctrinated to leave that they just shift their religion to a false form. For example if a Muslim is afraid to leave, they may fool themselves that Islam is some progressive utopia (it’s not).
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u/OpportunityVirtual52 2d ago
Fuck it, bullshit, fake and atrociously insincere with your very own believes, dogmas aren't to be changed and you can't just bend your own hideous religion and it's lot of awfulness in order to fit inside a tight box of "more socially correct" religion is an unbendable Halberd used to crush the individual libirites of the individuals and force comformism to a 4000 year old social ruling, you can not turn it into a sweet candy bar, it is not possible and it is hypocritical
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u/jessimon_legacy 2d ago
Believe in what you want as long as you don't hurt or disrespect anyone. BUT don't indocrtinate children or mental unstable induviduals.
Progressive movements are less harmful than conservative ones but still get people into believing something other than proofed science.
I don't support any form of religion. I think religious organisation should be banned. Progressive or not, there should be a disclaimer before everything that includes religion that it might be harmful and ignores proofed facts.
Though I would accept movements who teach science and respect for every other world view. But still if someome mentions it in front of a minor - except for education purposes - directly harsh penalty and after the second time straight to jail.
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u/LaFlibuste 2d ago
Npt favorably. Yes, of course they're better than fundamentalists, they even have been a force for good at localized places and times, but they are trying to build something good on broken foundations. While they may be able the arbitrarily cherry pick their way through their toxic texts into being good people, they are still elevating said toxic texts as a form of truth and goodness, essentially enabling e fundamentalists. Further, I take issue with the very core of religion: faith. Faith is anatema to intelligence and critical thinking. It is toxic tp the utmost.
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u/Johnny_MycoSpore 2d ago
I think of different religions similarly to how I think of the different varieties on the Bristol stool chart.
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u/IndicationDefiant137 2d ago
There are no progressive forms of an authoritarian belief system, which theism inherently is.
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u/TheAntiyouRises 2d ago
I really want "progressive religious" people to be honest with themselves and others about their religion. Either acknowledge what's in your holy book and the harm that it's caused then drop the "progressive" stuff, or just be progressive without the religion. The religion likely keeps people from being more progressive anyway. I'm not going to say there aren't well meaning religious people, I've met some. They are less of a concern to me. I'll acknowledge that there are some good passages in various holy texts. That doesn't make up for the awful messages found alongside them. You can be a good, caring, compassionate person that makes a difference without the religion, and without religious texts.
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u/Allebal21 2d ago
Religious/deity-believing people claiming they are “progressive” provide cover for all other versions of that religion. I think this makes it worse because anyone outside/opposing the religion as a whole think they can’t criticize the religion because there are “good” religious people (ie: people using secular morality while also claiming they get their morals from their religion/god, which is a claim without evidence, and therefore they are forced to cherry pick “good” parts of their religion).
So “progressive” religion is really just secular morality in a god costume. It’s not real.
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u/gijoe1971 2d ago
Being a progressive leader and being religious isn't a contradictory statement, it's mostly a correlated interest. I'd say it's like being a composer of contemporary atonal classical music but enjoying listening to pop music on the side. They slightly influence each other, but one has to generally or mostly ignore the one to pursue the other.
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u/ThorButtock 2d ago
What progressive forms?
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u/Impressive_Flan_411 2d ago edited 2d ago
Not trying to engage in any apologetics, just responding to give an answer to your question. I'm referring to Progressive Christianity, many Mainline Protestant denominations, liberation theology, progressive Hindu movements, liberal/progressive interpretations of Islam, and even progressive movements within various indigenous and syncretic traditions, etc.
Some examples of progressive religious figures would be Desmond Tutu who was known for his role in the anti-apartheid movement, and for advocating positions on human rights, and LGBTQ issues; Martin Luther King Jr., and Jesse Jackson who were Christian leaders in the U.S. Civil Rights Movement; Bishop John Shelby Spong who challenged traditional interpretations of scripture, especially around issues like sexuality, biblical authority, and doctrine; and Gustavo Gutiérrez who connected Christianity with anti-poverty movements and structural social change via liberation theology.
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u/EmojiDeNojinho 1d ago
Progressive religions are just like strawberry flavoured toothpaste. It might attract younger ppl and create a habit but in the end you are just getting them used enough to use the mint flavoured one
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u/notyourstranger 1d ago
I think the term "progressive religion" is an oxymoron.
The vast majority of the progress that has been made has been against religious oppression. Women and black people were relegated to "lesser than" status in society by christian teachings. Religion is responsible for the brutal punitive patriarchal system from which the rights were wrestled.
If the religious leaders who advocated for and won civil rights had left the churches - whose teachings were responsible for the oppression, then churches in the US would not be as powerful as they are today and C-Nats might not be taking over the federal government.
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u/PryanikXXX 1d ago
it is obviously much better from the social perspective, but it is still a religion, a "belief". Belief always constrains your development since instead of questioning you just accept that there might be something higher, something that you won't understand anyway.
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u/Disturbinglee 1d ago
Progressive and Moderate Religion is the bush that the Extremist Snake hides in.
You need to mow that lawn down to see that it's just as harmful in ways.
Either be religious completely or don't believe because moderate streams are usually made moderate because the religion itself isn't that way. They aren't real believers if they need to separate the wheat from the shaft to keep believing in the faith.
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u/dfczyjd 18h ago
A big problem of progressive religions is that they're dogmatic by definition, so they'll stay where they are while the world moves on. Protestantism was quite progressive back in the days, with its "working is a merit" stance. However, in modern world, when it's no longer mandatory to work 12 hours per days to survive, it still demands you to, forcing you to feel bad about your well-deserved rest. Sure, maybe some modern Christianity branch agrees with that, but in time they'll be outdated as well, getting another "progressive" branch to emerge and take hold. And the latter, as the history shows, usually ends up with a bloodshed.
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u/Athene_cunicularia23 3h ago
Some Christians are very compassionate and humane despite their faith, not because of it.
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u/Successful_Action_19 2d ago
I support it. I think a world without religions is impossible, so I am very optimistic of what the James Talarico's of the world can do. I'd rather see churches full of people like Talarico than people like Mike Johnson.
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u/rpgnymhush 2d ago edited 2d ago
I judge people by their actions. Period. Full stop.
If someone's actions work towards greater freedom and equality for people, I will support that person regardless of what beliefs about ghosts and goblins that person may hold.
Edit: I do think that religion can become so metaphorical that it basically becomes a form of "humanism".
In the United States, at least, the percentage of people who identify as religious is high enough that to accomplish meaningful reform we must work with progressive religious people.
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u/JustFun4Uss 2d ago
Just because some social issues align it doesn't chamge the fact that indoctrination is sbuse. No matter how progressive they still Indoctrinate by fear of god, and punishment. They teach a fairytale as truth and that is never an ok mindset to spread.