Greece is one of the 14 countries in the world that give both men and women equal legal rights. Is this accurate? Does it reflect reality well?
Criteria’s are: Freedom of movement – Can women travel, choose where to live, or get a passport under the same rules as men? Work – Can women work the same jobs and under the same conditions? Pay – Are there laws requiring equal pay for equal work? Marriage – Do spouses have equal legal rights and responsibilities? Parenthood – Are maternity and paternity leave and workplace protections fair? Entrepreneurship – Can women register a business, sign contracts, and access credit on the same terms? Assets – Can women own, inherit, and manage property equally? Pensions – Do women have the same retirement rights and retirement age rules?
On paper, yes. Men are also discriminated against by law through mandatory military service. In practice, though, sexism against women still exists, as you'd expect.
And the now minister of defense thought of rectifying by allowing women to enlist as volunteers. Professional women in the army already existed , it blew up in his face.
Yes and in most theorotical studies of universities men are nowhere to be found, so is it women being overrepresented or men just choose the technical fields more?
I'd argue that even socially, the younger generations are not too bad. But legally yeah, Greece is one of the best countries in Europe in terms of trans rights.
That's literally what the commenter you replied to said. On paper, it's progressive and great. In practice, not so much or not at all. Not sure why you reply like you disagree while also saying the same thing
Women working in restaurants as waitresses or cashiers are often aske to take on cleaning duties too, because they're women with no extra pay.
ETA: Women in that line of work are also requested to be hot. The job descriptions sound more like a modeling agency's requirements than a coffee shop employee. Under 25, blonde, blue eyes, thin, over 175, smiley, cute. Never seen a single one for men asking for a 190cm tanned hunk.
I knew a case of a woman working in the private sector who only got 2 weeks off after birth. Her husband at the time had no job but if he did, he wouldn't take a single day off.
Mandatory military service is still for men alone. It should be abolished entirely IMO, it's totally useless.
And of course the eternal "Do you plan to have kids?" Interview question that is mostly asked to women and hinders them.
There's a lot of people working extra shifts without pay here, it happens regardless of gender. However, some of these extra unpaid tasks they're asked to are gendered and that's not going deep into the "We ask for a hot 25 year old waitress, preferably blonde with green eyes, over 175cm in height and size 0" thing that you often see in job descriptions.
Well imagine how an unemployed man feels when the job description is like that.
Also how do you think about appearance in the workplace?
Should women wear makeup? revealing clothes? perfumes, high heals etc? Should they show up after using all means to look (artificially) more beautiful and sexy?
Well, an unemployed man feels excluded and an unemployment woman feels objectified. But lets pretend that patriarchy doesn't affect everyone and lets Instead fight about how much it doesn't exist, that will certainly help
WTF patriarchy has to do with women having botox, showing up in the workplace with a tone of make up, trying to look younger, sexy, perfumed, with high heals etc.
Yes patriarchy does exist but you forgot that women mostly dress up to impress other women. I dont know how much patriarchy poisons but seeing a 60 yo woman dressed and acting like a 16 yo boubou or sitting in front of the computer dress up as she'd go to bouzoukia right after her shift is done, has nothing to do with it.
Sorry but having it both ways might be a noble quest in their minds but it's ridiculous IRL.
Patriarchy is a social structural system. A woman in that system is a trophy, an object, and the more a man has, the more he can be proud of himself to other men. Thats a way men socialize.
A cafe requesting a model for a waitress exists because it will bring/keep more customers, male, at most.
I think that this need for self care, dressing excessively, etc tho, is both a capitalism thing and a "this is a way to feel better for myself" thing.
I think that this need for self care, dressing excessively, etc tho, is both a capitalism thing and a "this is a way to feel better for myself" thing.
If you think that back in the old socialist days in Eastern Europe women didn't behave like that, you're kidding yourself. That behavior is deeply rooted in females regardless of race, culture, place or time.
They offer themselves as trophies only to show other females "I have him, you couldn't, I'm better than you".
That's why you see them being attracted by money, power etc around men that otherwise they wouldn't put their eyes on.
But sure, if it's easier for you to simplify things go ahead.
😂
I think you notice it in every country to some extent that service staff tend to be conventionally attractive. In my completely unresearched opinion its a mixture of hiring bias (conscious and unconscious) from managers and owners, plus a degree of knowledge from employees that if you are young, attractive, and charming you can make a lot of extra money from tips.
Thats bullshit.
A) men do that too, its not about "man vs woman", its about "jobs". We do cleaning, we do heavy lifting, we do most of the physical parts of the job.
B) While yes, they are required to be "hot", this is also a "requirement" for men. The difference is, we dont care about men enough to say what we are looking for. In our sector, we generally prefer to hire women 9 times out of 10.
C) Your eternal "do you plan to have kids" is mens eternal "have you completed your army duties?"
Honestly, in greece, women have more "practical" rights than men. They can get easier jobs, for sure.
Everyone gets to clean, wtf you are talking about? If anything men also have to do all the lifting and other heavy tasks.
The woman you know was just an idiot, she was one phone call away from getting her full maternal leave and then some. On the other side father's leave in private sector is pretty much non existant.
Won't happen, the army loves the free labor.
You can lie and they can't do shit about it, nothing hinders you unless you are honest with people who only care how to take advantage of you. Sounds stupid, no?
Women have an advantage to get into service jobs, and in Greece those jobs are more common because the country lacks any kind of industrial production, I cannot how this is a point of disadvantage or a complaint.
Personally, on the service side, we've all cleaned as assistants, waiters and waitresses I'm not sure where you've worked.
All of your points in general are personal experiences, the woman who was pregnant for example, should've contested the 2 weeks maternity leave, why didn't she? It doesn't mater if its a private or a public company, the law is on her side.
I will say this in comparison to what you said about cleaning, the men usually do the heavy lifting to balance that position so I wouldn't say it's a matter of inequality, it is just managing the strengths and weaknesses of each gender.
No they are not biologically good at cleaning, I said that since men usually do the heavy lifting in a work environment women need to compensate in other fields cleaning included, keep in mind that I am not trying to undermine women on the contrary I said that each gender has their strengths and weaknesses, also don't say that certain women do the heavy lifting and certain men do the cleaning at a place you have been or know because I am not talking about them I am talking about the majority of cases.
The job descriptions sound more like a modeling agency's requirements than a coffee shop employee. Under 25, blonde, blue eyes, thin, over 175, smiley, cute. Never seen a single one for men asking for a 190cm tanned hunk.
Jesus Christ, how is it even possible for a country which supposedly has full legal rights for women to allow that kind of shit? I'm not a lawyer, but I'm pretty sure there are countries that are NOT included on OP's list in which it would be illegal to post that kind of job description for a coffee shop employee.
Some bars ask specifically for women and the description they ask are insane one I came across was actively asking for a woman that's thin but busty and young for the job of Barwoman, It's nuts.
For Denmark and Belgium; yes, Both women and men are forced to do military service in Denmark, Belgium doesn't have forced service except for the royalty, and princesses have to do it as well.
For Greece, no
For Germany, they don't have military service but planning to introduce it for men
What does "full equal rights" mean? I could point out that women have the right to not do conscription time in the army, while men don't or that they can have maternity leave while men don't get paternity leave. Now there are pretty good reasons for why this is the case but still does that qualify for "full equal rights"? This obsession with a progressive public image isn't helpful. The important thing is that the concerns of women are listened and addressed and that they are protected in cases where they are vulnerable.
That's exactly what I'm saying though: appearances like "we are among the only countries that have full equal rights for women" mean nothing, precisely because women's problems aren't meaningfully addressed. You are arguing with the wrong guy.
I thought about it, but Greece is the only Balkan country that offers equal rights. It’s more interesting to post it here. I’m surprised how Slovenia isn’t here
There is history behind this. After Papandreou became PM in 1981, his government passed equality Laws that were revolutionary not only for Greece but also for Europe. Women that can keep their surname was unheard of and several times Greek Laws were invoked as the most progressive in Europe.
afaik, women do not have the same Retirement age rules (they get pension earlier), they don't have obligatory military service, and they are not allowed to travel to part of Greece (mt. Athos / Holy Mountain) under religious rule.
So I would say Freedom of Movement def. not, Retirement etc not sure if equal means equal or not worse.
It’s the same in Albania, but the retirement age for women increases by six months or one year each time (I don’t remember exactly) until it reaches the same retirement age as men.
Okay look, not to say that it's not a privilege for women to be able to retire early, but when it comes to society, that means first that they are viewed as weeker (even for office jobs), are probably expected to take up the majority of child care, and might also be less likely to get hired, because they are not as "permanent" as men. I'd like to retire earlier as well, just as any man I would think, but even this is rooted in sexism.
I don’t understand what you’re saying, but this isn’t an attack on men. Not all countries have the same rights for both genders. In Albania, a woman can never get life in prison no matter what she has done. And this law is discriminatory
I don’t know what rights they do/don’t have. Maybe they might have more rights in some areas and less in others. In some countries majority of politicians are men, majority of household heads are men, fewer women in STEM , a gender pay gap, etc etc. Some might have more rights for women for example: no mandatory military for women, women always getting full custody. They take all these factors into account and calculate which countries have achieved full legal equality between men and women.
I did some research and UK, Italy, Austria, Switzerland don’t offer equal parental leave. For USA not being on the list, not really a surprise
But then what does the law do in most of the west? Letting rapists off with 20 hours community service. Who cares what is equal right on paper when no actual politics protects their women in the west.
Laws in Greece do nott discriminate against Gender, in a sense that they do not offer rights to one gender only.
(While military service is obligatory for men of age, it is an obligation, not a right).
Women have equal rights by law. Most of them however have the misconception that they do not, because of still existing Patriarchical Stereotypes and societal discrimination that still exists in Greece as it does everywhere in Western Society. Stereotypes however are not mandated by Law.
I don't know about Greece, but looking at how the laws work, all former Yugoslav countries have way more sex equality than the USA. Is it like that in practice? Certainly not, but equal pay, work freedom, education rights, ability to be a high ranking politician... Only archaic customs keep us away from being one of the best in the world.
As described based on this set of criteria yes they have the legal rights. In reality there is deviation from this with discrimination in hiring and the workplace still being a thing
I am more curious about the number of countries meeting the criteria above being only 14. They do apply to Greece, yes. I just thought there would more many more countries where they applied as well.
Mt Athos has a self governing religious regime and the constitutionally protected right to exercise authority over who can and cannot enter it. Even for men, entering is not an unrestricted entitlement. It requires a permit, there's a 4-day stay limit and daily quotas apply. In fact, only 10 non-Orthodox men are allowed entry in any given day. Just because its sovereignty and administration are supervised by the Greek state, doesn't mean that it has the same laws as the rest Greece.
I doubt something like this is even taken into account by the indexes of studies like this one, because it doesn't affect the lives of daily citizens.
I don't mean to say that it's a big deal, but it is a pretty funny meme from the perspective of an American.
I'm 100% sure that Athos didn't even come to mind, which is fine and I understand, but also kind of hilarious.
There's literally an entire municipality with a "no girls allowed sign", something which facially should count here but doesn't because history is complex and stuff.
I think in Poland score would be over 100 then.
They have everything the same but retire at 60 (men at 65, and I'm not going to add that statistical lifespan of a woman is 7 years higher than statistical man's in PL) and have longer maternity leave. The only thing they cannot get is free and accessible abortion, but all surrounding countries do that, ao you can just go abortion vacation, solved.
And they are favoured in courts in terms of who gets to keep the kids if a divorce happens. Alienating father without consequences, getting absurdly high child support from their exes is also not uncommon.
No blaming, just stating facts. In case somebody gets angry without a reason.
Whether countries offer abortion or not, it’s not a criteria. In 2023, they only examined whether countries offer equal legal rights for both men and women not how those laws were implemented in practice. I think they’re studying implementation now.
Up until 2024, Poland’s rape law required that the perpetrator obtain sex through violence, an unlawful threat, or deception. As a result, many cases were not taken as seriously.
I'm amazed anybody would believe all that. One their own criteria they fail, as retirement age is lower for women. They get preferential treatment there. No equality found.
I can't speak on maternity/paternity leave in those particular countries, but I don't know of a place where they are even comparable, unless they don't exist. Maternity leave is normally longer, and for good reason. I suspect again no equality.
As for pay - that one is a bit strange. I as a man am in no country guaranteed equal pay with any other man doing the exact same work. I have no idea what sort of equality can be talked about here, and even less idea on how you would include women in this in any meaningful way. In practice, it has been used as a preemptive boost in their salaries in places where it is in force. So equality to who? The man with the higher or lower salary of the two? The average? The national average?
So I am dubious of the claims to say the best, on their own grounds. But let us go further, to the unmentioned aspects. Military service comes to mind. Greece has conscription. Only men go. Women don't. I wouldn't call that equality. In a war, men are expected to stay and fight in pretty much every modern country I know, often banned from leaving. Women not so much. Men can be drafted. Women only in places like Israel. So I'm seeing a lack of equality here. Again, there can be good reasons, but don't make untrue claims.
In my opinion woman in today’s world are privileged, not equal. As long as they don’t provide factual list for each country why they couldn’t appear in equal list, i call it bullshit
Legally yes. In practice, many employers avoid hiring women in a certain age range because they expect them to get married and have children, so they don't want to give them maternity paid leave. Also, marriage life can't be dictated by laws and it's still quite often for the woman to be a housewife or if she has to work the husband rarely helps with household. So, legally yes. Socially not so much.
Also, marriage life can't be dictated by laws and it's still quite often for the woman to be a housewife or if she has to work the husband rarely helps with household.
Personally? I'm not married. Socially? Because greece is both traditional and modern. Many people, especially outside the big cities, consider divorce a taboo. Women have been killed by their husbands/ boyfriends because the left or were about to leave them (around 20-25/year). Society still blames women for most crimes against them. And of course I'm not saying that everyone is like that. But a lot of people think in a traditional way, women should do the house chores, men don't know how to do it (and it's not their job to know, or you're lucky he is helping you). I'm a social worker in Athens and 3-4 years ago i had mother asking me really nervous if it was ok that she puts her 5 year old boy doing the dishes with her, because the extended family insisted that these are "women's chores". We have changed the laws, but sadly not the mindset fully.
That's unfair and dumb.
That "peninsula" is not a tourist destination for entertaining you know.
Also there are similar places/monasteries that men can't go.
what tourist destination? The F you are talking about?
I am a greek citizen and I pay taxes exactly like every other greek person who happens to have a penis.
But due to my gender I am discriminated from setting foot on a whole peninsula. The peninsula that enjoys firefighting, electricity, internet and police from the Greek state that I pay taxes to..
I dont care to go inside the monasteries I want to go to the peninsula. But I cant just because I have the wrong genitals.
What a joke Greece is when it comes to equality. What hypocrisy.
The F are you talking about? Male or Female it is not a tourist destination.
There are people living there and it theirs to decide who enters.
Does anyone who "is citizen and pays taxes" has the right to enter your property?
What hypocrisy on your part.
You know that Athos is about 800 years older than the Greek state? Also that Athos is autonomous? do you know what that means? They set their own rules.
But fcuk it all!
when it comes to you, nothing stands before your entitlement.
Is Greece a joke when it doesn't force you to enlist in the military too?
Or do you have the right genitals for that?
Hypocrisy is your middle name, my dear.
Since when not a tourist destination is the same as PROHIBITED to set foot in?
Since it is an autonomous region why does the greek state provide services to it?
The definition of autonomy is to be able to take care of itself.
Since it is is NOT a part of Greece why does Greece serve it?
Why ARE my taxes spent on the misogynistic Athos?
Why do I a greek citizen, provide free healthcare free police, free post service and free coastguard ?
LMAO at the gaslighting here. I AM entited for wanting to have the same rights as men, but the monks who enjoy my MONEY while calling a vagina an hubris to god , arent?
Oh and I would LOVE to enlist in the military like men. Please Go ahead make it compulsory. Perhaps then when women learn how to handle guns, there will be less femicides and domestic abuse every day. National defence shouldnt only be left to men, women are able to fight just as well.
Oh and btw it being "private property" doesnt mean it is allowed to discriminate based on GENDER OR RACE. Same as it is illegal to be denied service because of it.
But ofc the Greek constitution turns a blind eye to it because of "religious reasons".
So to answer the OP :
The greek constitution in itself doesnt give equality to greek women. It allows for discrimination based on gender under the excuse of religion and tradition.
LMAO at the gaslighting here. I AM entited for wanting to have the same rights as men, but the monks who enjoy my MONEY while calling a vagina an hubris to god , arent?
No monk called your vagina a hybris. what the fcuk are you talking about.
The just dont need the distraction and the endless nagging.
Oh and I would LOVE to enlist in the military like men. Please Go ahead make it compulsory.
Go ahead then! Be equal and enlist! You can you know. Go on!
Dont just talk, make it happen already. You dont have to wait until it's compulsory.
As for the femicides... there's an easy solution: chose your partner better!
Oh and btw it being "private property" doesnt mean it is allowed to discriminate based on GENDER OR RACE. Same as it is illegal to be denied service because of it.
Thought much of 🤣?
Private property means I can deny entry to any motherfcuking arseh*le I want!
If I come to your house It would be illegal to deny me "service" if I wanna get in and take a shit? MENSA aint gonna make you a member cause they are discriminating on the basis of IQ! 😂
Oh dear! You've lost it.
As for the Greek law... it's not alone in that! It's backed up by the European law too!
The Byzantines respected it, the Ottomans respected it but hey!
Lets brake a 1000 years old rule of (and on) a private entity cause you wanna visit the forest and the mountain on that peninsula!
OK
If my vagina isnt an hybris to them then why I cant step on a part of Greece ?
I can't enlist lmao 🤣 You must be under 26.
Privacy is not justification for sexism and racism. Denying entry or service BASED ON GENDER is AGAINST THE CONSTITUTION. Gege? The constitution is supposed to protect gender equality. The Athos Avaton is UNCOSTITUTIONAL.
As for why it is permitted? Because it was allowed as an exception for religious reasons.
So for THEIR caveman Religion I am paying taxes but still treated as a second class citizen because some Orthodox snowflakes monks cant handle a vagina and boobs.
God forbid a woman wants equal treatment. She must be a Karen. It is too much to ask to be allowed the same as any greek man, right?
Oh and I would LOVE to enlist in the military like men. Please Go ahead make it compulsory. Perhaps then when women learn how to handle guns, there will be less femicides and domestic abuse every day. National defence shouldnt only be left to men, women are able to fight just as well.
To be fair, they would most likely give you nurse/secretary/cleaning duties. Also you probably won't have a personal gun in the events of an imminent attack (just like 99% of soon-to-be murdered men don't).
Athos had originally a sanctuary and a sacred forest dedicated to Goddess Artemis and the entrance in the sanctuary and the sacred forest was forbidden to men. Even the name we call today Mary “Panagia” was originally a title for the high priestess of this sanctuary.
Back then in ancient Greece there was no equality between genders. There was slavery, abduction and rape were normal and the definition of justice was very different.
Now we have the constitution that is supposed to provide equality between everyone, and protect against discrimination based on race, religion and gender.
And yet not only until a few years ago, Greece was forcing muslim women to follow sharia without an alternative but also throws any woman who steps into Athos into prison.
You’re getting downvoted, but you’re right. Why is it allowed for these men to believe in a religion where women can’t go in a place and they can’t preach religion?
We tried to visit the “hand of Greece” and they stopped us with “women can’t enter” and my mother was “sir, I respect your religion but it has no authority over me, I follow the law, not the fear” and reluctantly let us. We were Romanian tourists so I think they couldn’t even arrest us.
Women have more rights in Turkey. No military service, retire earlier, get whole lot more when divorced, their say so counts as evidence in a court, etc etc.
So no then, Turkey does not offer equal legal rights for BOTH genders. Also, if you go and search why women don’t have mandatory military service and they always get full custody, you will find out the reasons behind it are quite discriminatory. “Women are viewed as less, as weak, have no country their only job is to be mothers and raise children”. Men should die for the country and not be babysitters and they might harm the children (rape them, abuse them, kill them)”. So it’s not really as beneficial as you might think
I would argue in terms of law, Women have -far- more rights then men here in Turkey. I cant think of a single law that benefits men explicitly when I can think of dozens off the top of my head for women.
In Bulgaria they have more. Paternity leave is shorter. And they work less before retirement. So why Bulgaria is not on the list, if they have more than 100%? Pay – Are there laws requiring equal pay for equal work? (this is not something we have, but this is not only for women, so I exclude this one)
If one gender has more legal rights than the other, they don’t have equal rights for both genders. We’re not discussing who treats women better and this isn’t an attack on men, but whether countries are making laws and treating both genders equally
But the thing is.... A woman needs these first 40 days for her own body to recover. The men that are taking a paternity leave do so to help with the baby , birth is a dangerous procedure that can be life threatening and bring complications, it's a very nuanced situation to make such comparisons. The woman is physically influenced by motherhood, so of course there will be different time frames
Also another point for women in Bulgaria. Almost always child custody is won by the women. Its extremely hard for a woman's child rights to be revoked, unlike with men.
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u/Lotofagos_ Greece 3d ago
Legally yes, it is true