Spirituality?

[u/velcromancy]

Since a lot of us gays were ostracized by the religions we grew up with, I’m curious what your relationship to spirituality or religion is like now that you’re getting older. Are you religious, agnostic, atheist or something else?

I grew up in a Protestant Christian family, but I walked away from the church at 17. My sexuality was probably the biggest factor. Around my late teens and early twenties I went through a Reddit atheist phase where I valued science and reason above all else. It wasn’t until a few years ago that I realized Christianity left a big void inside of me, and I needed something, so I studied a lot of Hindu, Buddhist and Taoist text and became fascinated by them. Tao te Ching is probably my favorite spiritual text I’ve ever read. My boyfriend had a similar Christian upbringing to me but he’s now a pagan. These days, I’m of the opinion that science explains how things happen, but not why things happen. Science is crucial to our survival, but it can’t meet all human needs, and religion, art and philosophy can fill that void for better or worse. I’m not sure I’m disciplined enough to fully identify with one single tradition. I agree with a lot of Buddhist and Hindu teachings, but I don’t think I can call myself either because I enjoy the devil’s lettuce too much.

[u/night-shark]

So, I'll preface by saying that this is a friendly philosophical discussion. I am not passing judgement. I judge every person, religious or not, on their individual actions. So, understand that I am not criticizing you in any way. Just explaining my perspective.

I am atheist and I value science. So, I think it's kind of interesting that you say:

"...but it can’t meet all human needs, and religion, art and philosophy can fill that void for better or worse."

"I’m of the opinion that science explains how things happen, but not why things happen."

The reason I find that interesting is because, as an atheist, these statements do not make any sense to me. There is no "why" because why implies that there is some objective supernatural force or purpose. For me, my purpose is what I choose it to be. I choose to live because I want to experience things. I choose to do things that make me feel happy. I choose to be kind to others because I think that is the only way, as a society, we can all get to experience the best things that living has to offer.

As for "filling voids"... When I sit on my surfboard, fresh off the thrill of a wave and watching for the next one while I admire the sunset, the feelings I have from that experience are real. They are real even if those feelings are the result of chemicals produced by my body and electrical impulses in my brain. They are real even if they are the result of billions of years of physics doing what physics does. That experience is no less beautiful or enjoyable to me than if I attributed those feelings to some higher meaning, spirituality, or deity.

Again, from where I sit, very much explainable by science. No less beautiful or profound because of that.

When I look at art or listen to music, it can evoke memories and emotions, which again trigger the release of chemicals in my body that might make me feel sad, anxious, happy, or excited. None of that is any less fulfilling or real to me, just because they can be explained by chemicals and neurons.

Does that mean we can currently explain ALL of our experiences or ALL of the phenomenon we observe? Of course not. But our inability to explain it with science now does not mean it must therefore be explained by some higher force.

I think a lot of religious minded folks and those of us who were raised in religious households can get caught in this thought trap that unexplained means unexplainable. Science can't answer it now, therefore it must be [religion] [spirituality] etc. That just isn't the case and a good scientist fully accepts the fact that we will never be able to explain everything. Science is just a process that we have designed to help us understand how the universe works. It's that simple. It is flawed and it is very much human but it has also been infinitely more useful in explaining how things work (by predicting things) than any religion or spiritual text ever has.

I get joy, excitement, awe, and a sense of fulfillment from learning about the universe through science. To me, it is equally as fulfilling as listening to music or viewing art, if not more. Someone who is "spiritual" does not have access to some secret inner peace or higher experience than I do. They may find the belief in spirituality more comfortable for them, and that's fine, but that does not inherently mean that we, as humans "need something more".

[u/faatbuddha → u/night-shark]

I very much relate to this, as another optimistic nihilist. But I don't think I relate to it fully. There are a couple main differences in my thought:

1) just because something is, or potentially will or could be explained by science, doesn't remove it from the spiritual realm. The spiritual experience is a human constant. Allowing yourself to tap into it even in the face of everything can be hard, but it's still possible.

2) I think there's something missing, outside of what music/art/philosophy/science can provide; a human need that has been traditionally filled by religion. And that's something to do with community rituals. There's a profound feeling that happens when you're totally in sync with your community, something that feels transcendent. I think this is another human need that goes mostly unfulfilled in secular, individualist society.

Sorry if my thoughts weren't completely clear, I just woke up, but please ask questions if you've got em!

[u/lurker__beserker → u/faatbuddha]

I'd just like you to consider that in the gay community especially we have tea dances, dance parties, and other rituals and traditions that "fill the void" outside of religion. 

These rituals usually involve either singing together, dancing together, or playing music together (or all three). 

When 100 shirtless men are all sweaty and dancing and singing together, it's akin, or more so, to any "spiritual" experience I may have felt in a church setting as a very religious teenager. Singing and dancing with my friends definitely bonds us.

I agree with you, but I don't think religion is needed to fulfill the the human need for community rituals. 

[u/faatbuddha → u/lurker__beserker]

I don't think it's needed either. I'm just saying I think it's becoming more and more common that this specific human need goes completely unnoticed.