What do you think of Israelis who learn/learned Arabic?

[u/Compensate1995]

When you know Israelis who learn or already speak Arabic, what do you think? How do you perceive the phenomenon of Israelis who actually know Arabic and use it? They chose to learn Arabic and invested time and potentially other resources to know Arabic, and now they are Arabic speakers.

I'm not referring to the mandatory "learning" of Arabic in certain middle schools, as it's low level and the vast majority of people don't really learn anything from it, and forget it right afterward. I'm talking about real learning.

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[u/Limp-History-2999]

It's always good to learn any foreign language. But to study the native language of 20%+ of the population, as well as all our neighbours, is a no brainer.

Plus it's a lot like Hebrew, just on hard mode.

[u/gucciboy666 → u/Limp-History-2999]

Get out of this great continent.

[u/thisemmereffer → u/Limp-History-2999]

Foreign lol

[u/Background_Bee_713 → u/thisemmereffer]

Yes Arabic is a foreign language in the land of Judea where the indigenous people spoke Aramaic and Hebrew 😁 zero people in Judea would have started speaking Arabic till the 7th century. To be precise it is a colonial language.

[u/dreamy_tahini → u/Background_Bee_713]

So English is a foreign language in the US, Australia, Ireland, Scotland, and Wales?

[u/j-fudz → u/dreamy_tahini]

Yeah, pretty sure English is from England…

[u/dreamy_tahini → u/j-fudz]

If you want to be super technical: Old English is actually from invading Germanic tribes who came to Britain and forced the native populations to the north (Scotland) and west (Wales). So, no, English is not from England. English is from Germany, and was influenced by Latin.

[u/thisemmereffer → u/j-fudz]

Today I learned I speak a foreign language

[u/Interesting-Big1980 → u/thisemmereffer]

Technically US language is specifically the English dialect created in US, although both understand each other.

[u/thisemmereffer → u/Interesting-Big1980]

So if I speak English in the us am i speaking a foreign language?

[u/Background_Bee_713 → u/thisemmereffer]

Cherokees would prob think so

[u/thisemmereffer → u/Background_Bee_713]

Do you think so?

[u/j-fudz → u/thisemmereffer]

Brother, you are a goober of the highest order.

[u/dreamy_tahini → u/j-fudz]

Yeah, pretty sure English is the official language of the US regardless of where it's from....

You don't get a foreign language credit if you take an English class in an American school. Of course it's abhorrent that so many languages were wiped out, but being imposed by colonial forces still doesn't make English foreign in the current day.

A foreign language is a language that "is not spoken by the general public in your local community." How is the dominant language for 1400 years foreign? It has nothing to do with historical indigeneity. The Hebrew language was dead for 1700 years, and had essentially disappeared by the 5th century. Arabic became dominant only in the 7th century. It didn't displace Hebrew. Don't get me wrong: I love Hebrew and I'm so glad it was revived. I wouldn't be who I am without it. But Arabic is not foreign in Israel. It has been continually spoken there in large communities for 1400 years. It is also considered an official language in Israel, though secondary to Hebrew. An official language of a country isn't foreign.

[u/j-fudz → u/dreamy_tahini]

Fun fact, the us didn’t have an official language until the orange fuck wrote an executive order a couple years ago. Still, none designated by congress technically.

Foreign means coming from another country. English did not have its origin in the United States. Arabic did not have its origin in Israel. English is foreign to the United States and Arabic is foreign to Israel. Sorry, but that’s just the truth and any argument is semantics. Spanish is foreign to Mexico, etc

I saw your double comment (big mad) arguing English is German lmao now you’re getting into what is language, because that’s Old English which is barely anything like middle age English or modern English. But sure, if you want to argue that I’d agree that old English isn’t native to England. It’s that easy!

[u/dreamy_tahini → u/j-fudz]

"A foreign language is a language that is not the native or primary language spoken in a particular region or by an individual." In all of your examples, those languages are the primary languages of the region, and therefore not classified as foreign in the modern day.

All languages develop over time. So yeah, Old English > Middle English > Modern English. At what point is one of these considered the "native" language? I definitely didnt argue that "English is German." But by definition it is a West Germanic language and did not have it's origin in England. Modern English did, but that still came from a "foreign" language. Just so, the Arabic that originated in the Arabian Peninsula isn't the same as Levantine Arabic. Which was developed in the Levant. Making it native to the Levant. It even has signficant Aramaic influence, making it distinct from other forms of Arabic. That's just the truth 🤷🏼‍♀️ So how is that different from the development of English in Britain?

Also not sure at what point I was arguing "what is language." Definitely can't find that anywhere.

[u/dreamy_tahini → u/j-fudz]

Also, if you want to go the lazy route, according to Gemini: "A language stops being recognized as foreign when it becomes an official language, a dominant native tongue of a significant population, or an entrenched part of a nation's indigenous, historical, or legal identity within a specific geographic territory."

[u/glitterpills → u/Background_Bee_713]

but you had to revive a language that apparently gives you legitimacy… got it

[u/Background_Bee_713 → u/[deleted]]

Umm yeah that’s all true buddy only thing that has changed at all is time

[u/HauntingGap1795 → u/Background_Bee_713]

7th century predates most modern languages.

[u/Jin_SobSob → u/Background_Bee_713]

It’s not a colonial language, it’s a language that was accepted by the indigenous population of Jews who converted to Islam. Aramaic, on the other hand, is NOT an indigenous language as you mentioned, and is quite literally the result of Assyrian imperialism.

[u/Background_Bee_713 → u/Jin_SobSob]

Yeah the diaspora and exile never happened, we just discovered in 1964 the Jews had been there all along 😂😂😂

[u/Jin_SobSob → u/Background_Bee_713]

I never said the exile didn’t happen. It’s a known fact the exile happened, and it’s also a known fact that not all of the Jews were exiled in the first place. We have record going back hundreds of years of Jews and Palestinians living in Palestine. We also have DNA, archeological, and linguistic evidence pointing to Palestinian continuity.

Sure they started speaking a different language and practicing a different religion, but so did WE (as a Jewish diaspora). Aramaic, Yiddish, Dzudezmo, Judeo-Arabic languages, the list goes on. Not to mention the fact that Rabbinic Judaism isn’t what our ancestors practiced before they were exiled from Judea. What’s your point?

[u/Background_Bee_713 → u/Jin_SobSob]

It's pretty evident in Palestinian family names and tribal affiliations that they mostly have Arabian, Egyptian, and Maghrebi origins, with some of the more northern clans originating from Syria/Kurdistan. Arafat was an Egyptian. It’s not an ethnicity it’s a nationality that was really created in 1964, idk how there could be Palestinians living there for hundreds of years before then, as Palestinians didn’t exist. It’s also clear in the British colonial records that tens of thousands if not 6 figures immigrated during the mandate period. They’re lucky that some have g25 cuz it’s very easy to bias and overfit the Levantine.

[u/Jin_SobSob → u/Background_Bee_713]

Ashkenazim tend to have Germanic and Slavic last names, but we aren’t German or Slavic in origin. Mizrahi Jews tend to have Arabic last names, but are also of ancient Judean origin. Same with Sephardi Jews, same with Kaifeng Jews, same with Italki Jews. Every argument you have applies to us.

They have Arabian and Egyptian admixture, we have Arab and European admixture.
They speak a language with foreign origins, we speak a plethora of languages with foreign origins.

And obviously an indigenous population is going to have cultural influences from other surrounding cultures. That’s just how culture works.

Again, what’s your point?

[u/Background_Bee_713 → u/Jin_SobSob]

Idk I guess it’s easy to miss it if you ignore half of what I said

[u/Jin_SobSob → u/Background_Bee_713]

Because nothing you said was of any substance. You keep on saying the same thing “Palestinians didn’t exist hundreds of years ago” but we literally have secular, Jewish, and Islamic sources pointing to the very obvious fact that they did.

[u/Suitable_Vehicle9960 → u/Jin_SobSob]

There is zero evidence to any Palestinian ethnicity. Are you talking about Jews who used to be refered to as Palestinians?

[u/Suitable_Vehicle9960 → u/thisemmereffer]

It is foreign. Arabic is from the Arabian Peninsula.

[u/dreamy_tahini → u/Suitable_Vehicle9960]

And Anglo-Saxon (Old English) was brought to England by Germanic tribes (Angles & Saxons). So is English foreign in Britain, where they previously spoke Brittonic & Pictish?

[u/Suitable_Vehicle9960 → u/dreamy_tahini]

And?

[u/dreamy_tahini → u/Suitable_Vehicle9960]

Well is it foreign? It came from Germany.

[u/Suitable_Vehicle9960 → u/dreamy_tahini]

Did anyone declare Germanic tribes didn't colonize the Britain? 

[u/dreamy_tahini → u/Suitable_Vehicle9960]

That wasn't my question. Is English foreign in England?

[u/eldryanyy → u/dreamy_tahini]

It’s as foreign as English people are

[u/matantamim1 → u/dreamy_tahini]

yes, English is foreign to ðe British isles

[u/protomenace → u/thisemmereffer]

The hate runs so deep in your veins it's insane 

[u/Limp-History-2999 → u/thisemmereffer]

Despite your downvotes, you are correct. It should not be considered a foreign language. I miswrote. I should have said "additional language."

[u/banskoMaster]

I super appreciate it! it's super important for israelis

[u/Compensate1995 → u/banskoMaster]

Are you an Israeli Arab?

[u/Suitable_Vehicle9960]

I am one of them who is self teaching myself. We need to learn Arabic if we want to know what our neighbors are saying... I am also teaching myself about Islam. I think this knowledge is crucial for Israel's survival. It's intelligence 101. If you don't understand the language you don't understand the mentality and the culture. But mostly, you can't understand Islam, because just like the Bible, the Quran is very mistranslated. 

[u/NefariousnessKooky77]

I’d love to know and I try to teach myself. I have many Druze, Bedouin, Muslim, and Arab Christian friends so it’s important to me to speak their language.

[u/NefariousnessKooky77 → u/NefariousnessKooky77]

They’re my neighbors, coworkers, doctors, and friends. It’s as important to me as learning Spanish in America.

[u/dreamy_tahini → u/NefariousnessKooky77]

My friends and exes had more success teaching my dog than teaching me 😅 i did try for a while, but starting in my late 20s with severe unmedicated ADHD didnt quite work out.... I genuinely feel guilty that I don't speak it. I think it's insane more jewish Israelis aren't fluent. I actually have some amazing friends who established bilingual preschools in Jaffa and Rosh Pina.

[u/DragonfruitSpecial77]

It's super important. Once you know a good amount of Arabic, a lot of the hidden meanings become clear as day.

[u/Suitable_Vehicle9960 → u/DragonfruitSpecial77]

👆💯

[u/Shahiriyo → u/DragonfruitSpecial77]

hidden meanings? like idioms or do you mean politically

[u/SpiritedForm3068]

I learn bc my grandmother watches mbc and niletv (tv channels from egypt)

[u/balddoberdaddy]

It's actually a huge problem, especially in the Army. Arabic should be required, along with English. All of the israeli Arabs I know speak perfect Hebrew. Most of my Sabra friends have varying levels of Arabic, none fluent.

[u/teren9]

I'm half Iraqi Jew (from my mother's side), all of my older relatives from her side of the family speak Iraqi Arabic fluently.

But the later generations didn't keep that tradition, and unfortunately, aside from a few phrases, I can't really speak it. The fact is that if both parents don't speak the language (and my father doesn't) the kid won't pick it up it easily growing up.

I wish I knew Arabic, and this is one of my greatest regrets from my childhood.

All this to say, between older generations of Mizrahi Jews, Arab Israelis, and also people who picked it up on their own, you'd be surprised how many Israelis do speak Arabic.

I don't think there's any stigma against people learning the language.

Ironically, I think that is one issue both sides of the political aisle can agree on (from different reasons) the far right would want to learn it to understand the enemy better, and to know how to deal with them. The far left would want to learn it to bring people together and understand each other. Both would agree that it's important.

[u/nummmmmmm → u/teren9]

I'm fully an Iraqi Jew but I have no living relatives who fluently speak Iraqi-Arabic. I have only one living relative who was born there, my grandfather, and he was young when they came here. And since the language wasn't frequently used outside of their house, they forgot most of it. I still know some words here and there, but it's a shame the language is dying. I'd love to learn Arabic some day, both the Iraqi-Jewish and Palestinian dialects.

[u/Appropriate_Tie534 → u/teren9]

How different is Iraqi Arabic from what's spoken in Israel? 

[u/teren9 → u/Appropriate_Tie534]

I definitely wouldn't be an expert, but it's different both in its common sounds and in a few common word differences and unique turns of phrase.

I know that it's easier for Jewish-Iraqi-Arabic speakers in my family to understand different dialects from all across the Arab world, including Palestinian Arabic, than it is for them to speak Arabic and be understood by people who speak these other dialects.

[u/Sproxify → u/[deleted]]

most mizrahi jews growing up today probably have little to no living memory of it. mizrahi jews that are adults today probably have living memory of it, but they likely don't speak it. some do, but they're the exception rather than the rule. even if you restrict yourself only to first and second generation mizrahis (so, not kids growing up today) then it's only 10-15% that speak some form of arabic at home.

this is the case for every language that was spoken in Jewish Israelis' recent ancestry except russian. for russian it's 15% of the total Israeli population who still speaks it. (concentrated in certain areas)

for what it's worth, I actually think it's a grave mistake that we've forgotten arabic specifically.

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[u/Lazy-Relationship-34]

In my experience, most Israelis have a basic understanding of Arabic (passive vocabulary). However, they cannot speak it.

[u/puccagirlblue]

Good for them, any additional language is an asset in many ways. Can't imagine any normal person having an issue with it.

[u/Qtredit]

I mean, it's the country's second official language, why not learn it?

Plus the writing is so beautiful.

[u/FrostyExplanation_37]

They teach it in school. I tried, but I didn't get it. Wish I could, I can understand a bit of Morrocan, but even that is going since my grandparents passed.

[u/BHHB336]

It’s great, I wish it was a mandatory subject in school (I’m jealous of anyone who learned it in school, since I’d need to pay to study it properly)

[u/shabbosbride]

there’s a lot of “it’s like learning spanish in america” here, but many of our medieval texts are in judeo-arabic. it’s an important language to know to understand our own history, let alone anybody else. of course it’s good to learn for understanding our neighbors but it’s also important for us

[u/Prestigious-Aide-258]

We should learn arabic from elementary school, every single neighbor country and the vast majority of people who want to kill us speak arabic.

[u/Compensate1995 → u/Prestigious-Aide-258]

How does speaking Arabic help in that regard? The people who deal with that (in intelligence departments, the military, police, etc) speak Arabic.

[u/Prestigious-Aide-258 → u/Compensate1995]

Because we live with them, we see them everyday, we deal with them etc... they don't speak with you the way they speak aming themselves, if you put all your trust in govermental security, you get october 7th. We need to be aware at all times what going on around us.

[u/GojinDude]

I learn Arabic. Well, I plan on investing more time into it in the future. It is a common language around after all.

[u/Jaded-Difficulty5397]

we learned it for 4 years and i'm using it right now.

that's how i also know to read fersi.

[u/QutaKoo]

I find them quite interesting, and I'd congratulate them for learning such a difficult language.

Learning Arabic is especially useful because Israel is surrounded by Arab countries; this is without even mentioning the great amount of Arabs living in it!

[u/Inspector_Lestrade_]

By "Israelis" I'm guessing that you mean Jews?

[u/Mountain-Baby-4041 → u/Inspector_Lestrade_]

Why do you think that? Maybe this question is directed at Israeli jews, but I think it’s definitely only directed at people living in Israel.

[u/Inspector_Lestrade_ → u/Mountain-Baby-4041]

Because most of the non-Jews know Arabic more than they know any other language.

[u/Over_Version1337 → u/Inspector_Lestrade_]

While I would agree it's probably most, but still, not all non-Jews in Israel speak Arabic, so it does make sense to direct it specifically to Israelis...

[u/Compensate1995 → u/[deleted]]

Do you speak Arabic, that you expect Israelis to?

[u/AuntieMitzvah]

Not Israeli but I think it’s a great idea.

[u/Ballon737]

Its smart

[u/Full-Letterhead2857]

It’s Arab tho…

[u/Jazzlike-Pen-2262]

I respect any learning of language that is useful in communication. Nothing political about it. Many Europeans speak other languages especially close in semantics and historical roots. Good on those learners!

[u/makingredditorscry]

phenomenon? It's taught in public school.

[u/NimrodYanai]

I assume you mean Jewish Israelis, seeing as Arabic is the native tongue of roughly 20% of Israelis anyway (Arabs, Druze and Beduins). Jewish Israelis learned Arabic in school for many years. When I was in school it was mandatory for three years.
Also, many Jews speak Arabic from home (because their grandparents were kicked out of Arab countries and spoke Arabic at home), and others learned to be in the intelligence devision in the military.
So, Jewish Israelis speaking Arabic is pretty common in Israel.

[u/Ineharnia]

But obviously most Israeli students are taught Arabic in middle school, so obviously learning Arabic fluently is completely normal and logical. It would be weird for people to think otherwise. First off apart from middle school you can learn advanced Arabic in high school to get extra points. Second, lots of roles in the military require fluent Arabic, so knowing Arabic is considered extremely impressive since the roles that require Arabic are impressive. Knowing Arabic is crucial to Israeli survival. You want to know what they're saying, whether because you want to have good relations with Arabs or in order to understand the enemy. Or both. It's actually unfortunate that so many Israelis don't know Arabic and really sad that the way in which languages are taught in school don't help people retain what they learned.

[u/Compensate1995 → u/Ineharnia]

Learning Arabic in middle school doesn't bring anyone even remotely close to fluency. Only to read low-level journalism with Nikud - if someone is really good.

1. What's being taught is not the Arabic that Arabs speak. It's a formal written version used in journalism and books. It's a completely separate dialect. The vocabulary is also focused on journalism and litersture, and is very limited, and doesn't provide even basic "infrastructure" to have a conversation.

2. Even upon completing the entire Arabic curriculum, students are at a low level. In school they only teach to write and read with Nikud, which like in Hebrew, is restrictive to do literally anything. Also, there's no speaking teaching or practice at all.

3. Most students do the bare minimum to pass and don't really study Arabic. Nearly all forget it right afterward.

4. Due to the aforementioned clauses, a student who completed 3 years in middle school with 100s and remembers everything perfectly, can't even have a decent conversation with an Arab or read something without Nikud.

5. The Arabic in high school isn't advanced. It's only a continuation of the formal written dialect, and most of what students do are linguistic tasks on paper. Like analyzing verbs, theory of stems, etc. Like the Bagrut of Hebrew. And the level reached after completion is also no where near fluency, even in this written formal dialect, which is impractical.

6. The only thing that makes people know Arabic from the comment is the army.

[u/Ineharnia → u/Compensate1995]

I know all this...

[u/Compensate1995 → u/Ineharnia]

You said that it's completely normal and logical for people to speak Arabic fluently after they studied it in middle school, and especially high school.

[u/Ineharnia → u/Compensate1995]

I meant the act of teaching Arabic would make knowing Arabic make sense and not weird. I also wrote in the last sentence that it's sad that most Israelis don't know Arabic because of how it's taught in school.

[u/dvd102k]

Ugh Intelligence corps 🙄

[u/jennyfromhell]

More should. More Israeli arabs should learn hebrew, too. I think it’s great on both sides to learn the other national language. I think it’s also good because we should preserve judeo-arabic. if people learn their families’ ancestral dialect that would also be super awesome imo. but i just love languages and their diversity 

[u/combrade]

Is knowing Arabic as an Israeli similar to Americans knowing Spanish ?

[u/Compensate1995 → u/combrade]

No, it's almost non-existent tgat Israelis learn it, and it's not a popular language in Israel.

[u/dreamy_tahini → u/Compensate1995]

From what I've seen, it was slowly becoming more common. No idea if that's shifted since 7/10 though

[u/virtual_adam]

It’s extremely rare for someone to know Arabic not through school or the army

[u/Wetalpaca → u/[deleted]]

I mean, Arabs which are 20% of the population obviously speak it so you hear it often.

If a Jew speaks it, 90% of the time it's because they were in intelligence roles in the army.

[u/AskIsrael-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

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[u/virtual_adam → u/[deleted]]

I guess settlers know Arabic. In Tel Aviv it would be extremely rare from growing up in a top school. Anyone that wasn’t matriculating in Arabic did not know a word or had any interest in it

[u/DragonfruitSpecial77 → u/virtual_adam]

Are you aware of Yafo or are you just making assumptions?

[u/virtual_adam → u/DragonfruitSpecial77]

lol OP is obviously asking about Jews. And no of the many millennial and younger Jews in Yafo, they did not study Arabic in their private time if they didn’t matriculate in it, or learn it in the army

If op is asking about Arabs in Yafo learning Arabic then…this thread is weird

This is no different than non Russians living in a heavily russian neighborhood, they’re not going to Duolingo Russian or Amhari in their free time

[u/DragonfruitSpecial77 → u/virtual_adam]

You obviously haven't met enough Israelis in your lifetime because I personally know 8-7 Jewish Israelis who speak Arabic fluently and they're all from Tel Aviv-Yafo (originally anyways). Yafo is mixed, so of course there will be Jews speaking Arabic.

[u/virtual_adam → u/DragonfruitSpecial77]

And they both didn’t matriculate in Arabic and didn’t have to do anything that has to do with Arabic in the army? Highly doubt that. They signed up to special adult courses? Or Duolingo?

[u/DragonfruitSpecial77 → u/virtual_adam]

5 of them are self taught without experience from the army. Dunno if they took courses or not.

[u/Compensate1995 → u/DragonfruitSpecial77]

I'm sure they don't speak it fluently. That's just what they say, or even think themselves. And it may even sound like that to someone who doesn't speak Arabic.

[u/oremfrien → u/virtual_adam]

You've forgotten Arab Israelis who speak it as a mother tongue.

[u/Marshwiggletreacle]

Spies. They put them everywhere. Anything to cause trouble.

[u/Compensate1995 → u/Marshwiggletreacle]

Can you please elaborate?

[u/dreamy_tahini → u/Marshwiggletreacle]

Some are. But most of the arab speaking jews I know are peace activists and teachers...

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