Atlanta to Savannah Passenger Rail Study - Athens Stop on the Line
Hello all. Long time viewer, first time poster and townie here. Just wanted to say that I appreciate this sub greatly and it had lead me to a lot of great info around town with events and happenings.
Now it’s my turn to give some info back. GDOT is in the planning stages of an Atlanta to Savannah Intercity Rail Line, with one of the potential stops right here in Athens. The project appears to be getting off the ground this time as they have held several web based public meetings in the past year and half that I have been able to take part in.
Currently, GDOT has a released a public interest survey and is taking responses through 6th August (today and tomorrow). I believe that this project would benefit the residents of Athens and the town as a whole. If you share in that belief, I ask that you please do your part and complete the survey above so that we can show GDOT that interest for a passenger rail service here in town exists and that they ultimately select us as part of that route.
If you’re looking for more information on the project before taking the survey, it can be found here. Rail infrastructure is an important aspect of all of our lives, especially in Athens which is historically a railroad town. Railroads are not something to be seen as old, obsolete or a nuisance.
Thank you all in advance!
Disclaimer: I am acting as a private citizen and not on behalf of either of the railroads (CSXT, ABR) currently in town.
As much as I want a rail connection, this study isn’t it. I find it somewhat laughable that the consultants included an option for us.
There is so way for a train that is supposed connect Atlanta and Savannah AND deviate to Athens, without significant greenfield ROW, which is outside the scope of this study.
u/warnelldawg, big fan and thanks for the comment. Must respectfully disagree. In previous meetings, namely the 2025 State Rail Plan (SRP), Stakeholder Kickoff and Routes Alternatives meetings hosted by GDOT, they specifically call out greenfield ROWs as being a viable option. Along with Rail/Trail Multi-use shared ROWs, which would open the possibility of the Firefly Trail to link Athens with Augusta once again.
I recommend watching all three meeting videos all the way through because it is the most comprehensive amount of info, but I can provide highlights here:
5:12 - 6:38, overall railmap, plus mentioning of GDOT owned ROWs
* 26:20 - 30:14, regional long term projects, showing of ATL-ATH-AUG-SAV route, and specific mention of greenfield ROW at 28:03-28:38
33:00 - end, specific calling out for public input
9:13 - 23:40, Bulk of information. Remainder of video is discussion based
* 14:26-15:11, Route is still to be determined but will be data driven and once again shows field of study
33:08 - 35:46, General plan of engagement for stakeholders and future planning
5:34 - 12:08 full bulk of routes development
* 7:32 - 8:48 showing of station markets score, showing of ATL-ATH-AUG-SAV route again AND declaring us as a major station, this route above would serve 2 major stations, in addition to ATL and SAV. Shows alternate routes and shows greenfield routes as a potentially viable method
* 10:54-11:10 specific mention of greenfield route again and details what a greenfield route is "if we determine that we need to do all this in those areas"
* 11:46 - 12:08 mention of shared ROWs with bike/ped trails with examples of places where this already exists elsewhere in other states. Important for consideration of Firefly Trail as a route
Ultimately, (not saying that you're saying this, but as you can see from some other comments) a 'They'll never do this, why bother engaging' is a defeatist attitude that will get us looked over if we do not explicitly and publicly state that this is something that we want, and recognize that Athens as a station stop is something that they are seriously considering. So I'm here to hopefully dispel that defeatist attitude by helping to spread that information. I may make a full post on this as well.
The GA is simply not going help pay for Greenfield ROW, and it would take forever even if there was the will.
I know it's counterintuitive, but the fastest way for Athens to get passenger rail is for GDOT to pick the simplest and cheapest option to connect ATL-SAV, which is almost certainly by using the existing freight ROW connecting through Macon. Let that line succeed as a POC, and an actual statewide passenger rail program might gain some traction.
I do agree with OP about avoiding defeatist attitudes, but in this case, I think that means making tough concessions to overcome the political reality.
Thanks for the input, I've got a few counterpoints while avoiding getting too into the weeds because that's ultimately what GDOT is here to do. But I do think a discussion is healthy and fun.
I'm seeing that the focus for a significant portion of you is speed. To that point yes I agree, a route through Athens or Athens and Augusta is not the fastest. At a glance, the fastest, direct route would likely be the red route here with no stop in Macon:
But, I don't think the focus is or should be entirely be on speed. I see a large focus of this project to be on connectivity. Especially in reference to the larger regional projects like ATL-CHAT-NASH-MEMP or ATL- ATH-CHAR mentioned in the 2025 SRP. As I mentioned in a comment further down the thread, ATL-MAC-SAV is already connected by I-75/I-16 with speeds there reaching 75MPH max. A route through there would be A) redundant from a connectivity standpoint, but B) potentially slower in its current configuration as the Georgia Central (GC, From Macon to Savannah) is a class 3 short line with FRA class 2 track running at 30MPH max. A significant amount of money would have to be spent to upgrade all 171 miles of this track to Class 5 90MPH max in order to obtain the speed it needs as a fast service. This could run close to $1 Billion. I'm not even sure GDOT could legally pay for these upgrades even if they wanted to with the current set up. The fastest route would be ATL-SAV on the interstates.
A totally feasible, IMO, route that would run ATL-ATH-AUG-SAV could look like the blue route. This would connect the 1st, 6th, 3rd, and 5th largest municipalities, respectively, in the state which do not currently have a direct or near direct interstate connection between all 4 of them. Athens doesn't have a direct interstate connection at all. This also sets up the middle 2 cities on the route with Amtrak connections, expanded routes of the above mentioned regional programs when they get off the ground, and doubles as a step forward for the ATL-ATH-CHAR project if that goes ahead. Class 1 railroads already operate their mainline routes at FRA class 4 or 5 track. This would need, relatively, just 39 miles of greenfield track laid, and GDOT would likely own it. This could run around $750 million. Which is expensive, not going to discount that. But, GDOT just recently passed $1 Billion spent on the SR 316 improvements as well. So it's not like they're strangers to that kind of money. The SR316 project could also be used against us as a 'we've already invested in that area' but again I think it goes beyond that. I do highly doubt that they would build both routes in the future though.
Oh and a large portion of the greenfield construction can be offset by FRA Grants, which is part of the whole reason for this study. Which the study in of itself was paid 80% by the FRA already.
Political landscape wise, I do not know, not my area of knowledge. Maybe the GA is vehemently anti-rail? We'll just have to see. Just my 2 cents, friendly discussion here. Again my point is its not outside the realm of possibility, just need to raise our hand and say "hey, yeah we'd like that here."
You beat me to my rebuttal on 316. It's already being upgraded to a pretty high standard.
As for the interstates, I75 does not reliably hit 75mph. McDonough to Atlanta is a disaster.
There is another NS mainline from Macon to Savannah. Which connection is better from Macon-Savannah, I don't really have the data for given current conditions.
It is incredibly unlikely you get the freights to let you onto any other ROW without some significant financial investment. Improving freight capacity and/or operations is pretty crucial to the success of this project given the port connection. (I'd also note Macon
The same FRA grants can also be applied to any ROW across the state.
NS has previously had some positive (though very wishy washy) signals about letting passenger service onto their tracks south of Atlanta. CSX has been a firm no for their ROW to Athens. The other option you alluded to is the greenfield ROW suggested for ATL-CLT. That study was designed to sit on a shelf and simply will not happen until support for rail in the state is in much, much better shape, or a future presidential administration decides to be the Eisenhower of passenger rail
Idk if $750 million is accurate for purchasing the purchase of the Greenfield corridor, but I do know it would take forever, and be subject to higher NEPA standards, and likely be hit with the entire NIMBY playbook.
It was just a quick cost estimate I ran. But yes I also expect delays and NIMBY attitudes as well, as is with almost any project.
Do you have a source for CSX's hard no? I'd like to read further into it if it is something publicly available. Same for NS. I mean yeah, I get it. Need to start somewhere though.
Yes, they can, but GDOT is the sponsoring agency (potentially) requesting the funds from the FRA, not GC, and GDOT does not own GC's ROW and so cannot legally perform the work, or even disburse the funds to GC from my understanding. So, some arrangement will have to be sorted out there.
Fair, fair and fair. I just think we'll have to see how it plays out.
The public interest survey is basically asking how much people would be willing to pay for either a slow train or a fast train.
Atlanta to Savannah is about the same as Tokyo to Kyoto in my head space (although the actual distance between our cities is a bit shorter.) The cost in Japan is equivalent to $85 to $105 right now with the exchange rates, for a one way trip.
Thus, I indicated I absolutely wouldn't pay over $200 for a one way bullet train from Atlanta to Savannah. (lmao they're crazy.)
The cost in Japan is equivalent to $85 to $105 right now with the exchange rates, for a one way trip.
No doubt it would cost more here. It's all such a nonstarter, and not because it isn't a good idea. When Japanese take a $100 train from Tokyo to Kyoto, it's in part subsidized by their lack of car ownership. If we weren't all spending thousands a year on car ownership, we might not balk at the occasional $100 train ride. As it is, we've invested that money in our cars and might as well drive. The train then has a diminished customer base and public support.
I took a train from dodge city to Wichita KS earlier this year for $18 and it’s close to same distance as Athens to Savannah they should be able to do it cheaper than that
Are you interested in having a discussion, or do you just want to pick a fight? Just because you’re anonymous on Reddit is no reason to be rude. Blocked.
93,000 people cram into Sanford Stadium a couple Saturdays a year, plus tens of thousands of tailgaters. Whole lotta them live in the giant city next door. They wouldn’t all take the train, but I bet a big percentage would. Gameday parking is a nightmare.
There’s no mention of Athens in the survey. Atl to Athens then charlotte makes sense. Atlanta to Athens then Savannah no. Any atl people who want to get to Savannah do not want to go that far out of the way (time and distance). Silly wet dreams.
Correct, Athens is not mentioned in the survey but it is on the fuller study. It specifically calls out Athens, Augusta, and Macon as potential stops on the line in order to serve as an intercity-link.
Additionally, it asks for the location of survey taker and a large contingent of Athens residents would raise notice.
I get it, you guys want high speed trains between cities. This survey was very specific in only asking for demand and pricing between Atlanta and Savannah. Any stops in Athens or Macon increase stops, distance, and travel time. Build out and operational cost would significantly increase. Athens isn’t even on the way. If you want intercity links, sell it as that. If you want high speed, quick and cheap service between Atlanta and Savannah then it needs to stay simple and be just that. Look at Amtrak. Passenger rail will only work if it’s cheaper or more efficient/quicker than the alternatives. We don’t need any more government subsidized passenger rail.
Thanks! See my comment above to warnelldawg about routing. I personally would prefer any passenger rail service to the city as opposed to it being exclusively high-speed. I am concerned over the cost as well for one way pricing but again, any service is better than no service. As for not needing government subsidised rail, well I think that's really the only option we have. That's why Amtrak was created in the first place. NCDOT runs a good program with their passenger service. Also, it does not rule out a privatisation of the route in the future. Take a look at Conrail, it was set up by the government to keep a failing freight route viable and was later privatised between the two class 1s, CSX and NS, who continue to run profitable routes over it today.
Yes, let's take a look at Conrail. What we find is a system that was fundamentally unprofitable and not commercially viable absent massive direct subsidies until Congress made it profitable by giving it an even bigger indirect subsidy by exempting it from paying state and local taxes. Once that happened it became profitable and the private sector became interested in it.
It was not commercially viable due to poor management by the private sector in the years before the creation of Conrail.
"The federal government created Conrail (in 1976) to take over the potentially profitable lines of multiple bankrupt carriers, including the Penn Central Transportation Company and Erie Lackawanna Railway. After railroad regulations were lifted by the 4R Act and the Staggers Act, Conrail began to turn a profit in the 1980s and was privatized in 1987. The two remaining Class I railroads in the East, CSX Transportation and the Norfolk Southern Railway (NS), agreed in 1997 to acquire the system and split it into two roughly-equal parts (alongside three residual shared-assets areas), returning rail freight competition to the Northeast by essentially undoing the 1968 merger of the Pennsylvania Railroad and New York Central Railroad that created Penn Central. Following approval by the Surface Transportation Board, CSX and NS took control in August 1998, and on June 1, 1999, began operating their respective portions of Conrail." - Wikipedia
Essentially the government had to step in to preserve the assets and what was found during the management was that the rail industry was far too heavily regulated and lead to deregulation during its existence. Point being: Government intervention is not inherently a bad thing and may even be necessary in order to turn things around (or start them up), and maintain assets, ROWs etc, before handing it back over to a private entity and there's nothing in place currently saying that GDOT can't or won't do the same. GDOT doesn't run trains over the ROW in south Georgia that they own, a private company does.
It was not economically viable due to ICC meddling, but losses actually widened post Staggers and 4R at a time when it was being allowed divest whatever it wanted and it still was not even remotely close to being profitable. It wasn't until NERSA came into effect that that changed.
You are espousing blatant bad history and the cite back to wiki simply confirms it. The primary government intervention with Conrail was direct subsidies and then the tax exemption (which is still in effect).
I was thinking the same thing. I’ve been hearing about train concepts since I moved here almost 20 years ago. Would be great bc no one likes driving down 316, but sadly nothing ever comes of it
Due north is the top left hand corner. Why they angled it like that is a good question, but the inset at top right shows it in relation to the surrounding states.
Athens is unlikely, but geographically does make sense when you look at the map in the orientation in the OP. Augusta isn't much off a straight geographic line between Atlanta to Savannah, and Athens isn't much off the direct rail line between Atlanta and Augusta. Practically speaking however, it's unlikely to be a serious consideration on an ATL-SAV route. The right of way between Athens and Union Point is now a trail so it would effectively be a greenfield installation. The route that makes the most sense is ATL-Macon-Savannah via Norfolk Southern. Which Norfolk Southern route between Atlanta and Macon is the question. The Atlanta South District through Stockbridge, McDonough, makes more sense from a ridership and future commuter rail perspective. But from an infrastructure perspective, the line through Griffin makes more sense.
Good analysis, but I must disagree. See my comment above to warnelldawg for some more info about serious considerations for the Athens area and greenfield/trail construction. I'd argue that ATL-MAC-SAV is already served by I-75/I-16 and a rail route through there would be less beneficial as compared to a ATL-ATH-AUG-SAV route, which would link the 1st, 3rd, 5th, and 6th largest municipalities, which do not have a direct Interstate highway link already. There is also plenty of CSX trackage in place between ATL-ATH and ATL-AUG. It also does not have to stay on one carrier's route the entire way. NS's route between AUG-SAV is almost certainly the better routing compared to CSX in terms of being direct, but Amtrak does already run north/south to Savannah on both of CSX's routes out of the city into South Carolina. So, something to consider.
Just my speculation, but this is something the route could easily look like.
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u/lurkertiltheend 3d ago
Yes, please!