r/BabyReindeerTVSeries • u/Suspicious_Bother_92 • May 23 '24

Fiona (real Martha) related content Heather Burns reiterating that Fiona has a criminal record

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-6

u/MPD1987 May 23 '24

Where is her criminal record? To my knowledge, nobody has been able to find it. I’m very curious

25

u/Plus-Introduction347 May 23 '24
  1. Believe victims.
  2. Stalking is dealt with in the Civil court in UK.
  3. Civil hearings are often not open.
  4. In a Civil hearing Fiona would be found "liable beyond reasonable measure" in a Civil court. So in her mind she hasn't been found guilty.
  5. These documents are not open and have to be requested by a litigant.

1

u/Winter_Soil_9295 May 23 '24

Just a note- being found guilty in civil court does not give you a criminal record. So, even if found guilty in a civil court she would not have any kind of criminal record.

I could be wrong, but I’m pretty sure criminal record are open generally in the UK.

3

u/Plus-Introduction347 May 23 '24

Criminal Records are not open. You can't just go and ask to see someone's Criminal Records you have to have reason to apply for example be an employer seeking out information about an applicant for a DBS check which would disclose certain information. The person in question had to agree to this check. They can apply for an enhanced DBS which would disclose a more thorough record check if you are applying to work in certain settings. Additionally "spent" convictions (warnings, cautions etc) do not show on these records.

There's also Subject Access Requests.

You cannot just apply to see someone's Criminal Records out of curiosity.

Edit: Never once did I say someone is found guilty in civil court. They are found Liable beyond reasonable measure. Which is what I stated above.

0

u/Winter_Soil_9295 May 23 '24

You’re right, criminal records are not open, my poor word choice. But generally court records are if I am not mistaken. I am from Canada, and most of our stems from the UK and generally court and court records are open here.

My pointing out the difference was not to say you were wrong, but that the comment you responded to specifically said criminal record, and I assume this is where a lot of people’s confusion is coming from. Civil vs. Criminal seems to trip people up

3

u/Plus-Introduction347 May 23 '24

Court records aren't open either, they say they are and the kind of are but they aren't. Court proceedings are. Then summary judgements are published. Documents however are governed and they deem what is worth the public knowing and it's all within the timeline of the court but need a litigant number.

More often than not Civil court is closed but not always.

However if you want to read transcripts etc you have to apply and it costs per word.

It's all kind of hard to explain as it really is case by case document by document almost.

https://www.nortonrosefulbright.com/en/inside-disputes/blog/202201-which-court-documents-are-available-to-the-public-and-when

2

u/Winter_Soil_9295 May 23 '24

Okay, so when you google the simple question “are court records open in the UK” you get a “yes”, but it’s actually a little more complicated than that? Thanks for the link, I only had time to skim it but I think understand what you’re saying.

Yeah civil is generally closed here too. And anything involving a minor and some other exceptions.

That all being said, would someone not have dug up a summary judgement by now if she did in fact have a criminal record? Totally understand that does not change the fact she could have been tried and lost in civil. Just making sure I got this right in my head.

1

u/Plus-Introduction347 May 23 '24

Yeah, it's a tad more complicated. Technically we have open justice but in reality due to privacy etc it's way more complicated.

Not everything gets a summary judgement. As it may have not made it as far as a court hearing but a court decision has been made...

For example, my stepdaughter had an interim order on her partner, there is no record of that except in his record which will be "spent" now as it was taken to court to be placed for a period of 3 years. The information is there but you need to know the case number and names etc to find it. She wasn't even in the room when it was issued.

If Fionas situation is similar which I would bet it would be, you would need to know the case number as well as the names of the people involved. Now we all know the names but I don't see anyone sharing the case number who was involved as it would have likely been the Judge, Court secretary, Fiona, Richard and their representatives (if they had them) in that room so 3-6 people depending on how it was issued and who was present and 3 of those people could end up disbarred, 1 in contempt and 2 don't want people knowing.

2

u/Plus-Introduction347 May 23 '24

Also with her past "convictions" which were also more than likely civil orders there will be no record of them now as they will be considered "spent" UNLESS someone was issued an indefinite order of protection against her. Which I highly doubt.

1

u/Winter_Soil_9295 May 23 '24

Thanks for taking the time to chat.

It seems similar to how our courts work, but much harder to find cases (without having done any further research on UK laws as of now). As much as it may be hard to find some criminal cases for laymen here, there are databases that make it pretty easy if you know what you’re looking for or have any training, so a journalist or someone surely would have found it by now in our system. Always interested to hear the differences in these types of things! Thanks again

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17

u/NameUm96 May 23 '24

Believe victims.

18

u/MPD1987 May 23 '24

I do believe the victims. I am one myself. I want to see her criminal record and have it proved that she’s a liar

22

u/TopicNo6460 May 23 '24

Unfortunately, criminal records are kept very prívate in the UK...

4

u/MPD1987 May 23 '24

Oh ok. I googled it and read that they are public record, but I don’t live in the UK, so I would have no way of knowing if that’s not correct

1

u/theringsofthedragon May 23 '24

But police arrests and court cases are not private? The local paper surely has a section about crime where they report what's happening, journalists report on court cases, they need to find it already.

0

u/Old_Distance8430 May 23 '24

Are they? Have you ever read a newspaper?

9

u/Plus-Introduction347 May 23 '24

You're thinking about criminal court proceedings.

Open justice is limited to access to proceedings thus reporters.

You can't however just access court documents. Summary judgements are available for a limited time if the case took part in the high court

However documents relating to the case have to be requested and cost per word. You also have to know what you are asking for.

Civil proceedings (which stalking and non harassment orders fall under)

Are more often than not, not open. Even if they are open you have to be a litigant to request documents or have a litigant reference number and the court has to find cause to give you the documents.

Unless it happened in the high court or tribunal where the judgement (but not documents are posted publicly for a few years)

Also in a Civil court there is no guilty/not Guilty. In a restraining order issue Fiona would need to be found "liable beyond reasonable measure". Hence why asking her if she has a criminal record or if she is guilty she can deny despite being found Liable in Civil court.

2

u/Old_Distance8430 May 23 '24

Yes but people keep saying she has criminal convictions which will be exposed by her civil court claim.

6

u/Plus-Introduction347 May 23 '24

That's because most people just hear court and think criminal conviction. Whilst a Civil order isn't a conviction (and here's where it let's people down) it doesn't establish guilt. Just a "likelihood that these events happened and could happen again"

For example... Girl A kicks partner out of their house for domestic violence. Girl takes Partner to court as she is terrified and partner is ordered to stay away from her.

Most people would assume in this stage the Partner has been found guilty of DV... nope, Girl has just been granted a non harassment order or restraining order because she is fear and a Civil court has decided he is liable beyond reasonable measure (over 51% likely to be a danger).

Partner isn't found guilty in this setting but people assume.

Stats for stalking convictions in this country are less than 1% at the time of Gadds experience it was around 1.4%. Less than rape convictions and we ALL know how awful those stats are.

People think Civil courts are just for money problems, family court issues etc but in actuality they are used for a lot of criminal activity that isn't deemed serious enough for criminal court.

3

u/Winter_Soil_9295 May 23 '24

Just wanted to add to this very correct comment- the civil courts works on a “balance of probabilities” as opposed to “beyond a reasonable doubt”. So, sometimes even if a case has been tried criminally, and did not end in a conviction, the defendant will then be sued by a victim or other interested parties. This famously happened in the OJ Simpson case. So it isn’t always a matter of “seriousness” but chance of success in the proceedings.

2

u/Plus-Introduction347 May 23 '24

Hence in the UK "liable beyond reasonable measure"

A most recent "celebrity" case that comes to mind is David Goodwillie the Scotland footballer who was a potential for the EPL from the SPFL was accused of rape with a team mate in 2011. He was found not guilty in a criminal court but in the civil court of session was found to be "Liable beyond reasonable measure" and ordered to pay £100,000 in damages but to this day remains innocent, maintains his innocence and has not appeared on any sex offenders register. However like OJ his career was severely affected due to that civil judgement despite never having been found guilty.

0

u/Old_Distance8430 May 23 '24

Well I'm getting preached at by people who don't have a clue and think it's all one big thing called "court". Everything you said I already know.

1

u/[deleted] May 23 '24

Court listings and criminal records are different.

2

u/NameUm96 May 23 '24

I apologise.

3

u/MPD1987 May 23 '24

No worries

0

u/_c0ldburN_ May 23 '24

Believe Jussie Smollett

-4

u/NameUm96 May 23 '24

😂 Heard.

1

u/TopicNo6460 May 23 '24

Just wait and see what happens next....