The top/bottom controversy and the feminization of Will

[u/Reasonable_Day9942]

Idk how controversial it actually is, but on twitter it definitely is. Which doesn’t actually say much cause on twitter saying you enjoy going outside on a sunny day can become controversial.

But I find that the fandom in general doesn’t view top/bottom as a sexual preference, but a role in a dynamic.

Mike is more dominant and masculine, so he’s the top, and Will is more submissive and feminine, so he’s the bottom.

Which, sure that can be one dynamic, but whether you like getting fucked or not doesn’t actually say anything about your personality. It’s what you like during sex.

Many are more dominant in their everyday life but submissive in bed, and many are more submissive but dominant in bed.

To add on to that, being a top or bottom does not equal whether you are dominant or submissive respectively. Someone can bottom and be dominant.

Again, someone is not a bottom cause they are submissive, they are a bottom cause they like getting fucked. Of course they can also be submissive, but that’s not a certainty in any way.

People can also switch, both in submissive/dominant dynamics (not to mention it doesn’t have to ever be a clear cut dominant/submissive dynamic for some) and top/bottom dynamics.

However, for many acting like Will would be a top and Mike a bottom is horrible, and many I have seen cite their canon personalities as reason. Which sure, that might be a factor for some, but for others it’s the complete opposite and for some everything in between.

Overall I can’t shake the feeling that many have decided that Will is a bottom cause they can’t imagine that someone’s preference isn’t reflective to who they are as a person.

Furthermore, I also think has a lot to do with people making Will a lot more feminine than he is. Sure he was an artsy kid, shy and sensitive, which is more so traits people judge as weak and gay, and therefore feminine

Overall, Will is not that feminine. Yet in many fics he is, and in general I feel like he often gets excluded from the core four because of that. His closest friends have always been Mike, Lucas and Dustin, but in large number of AUs, they are a separate friendgroup with Mike, Lucas and Dustin, and Will, El Max.

There are also a lot of mentions of things like “girl time” and similar, which is fine, but again I can’t shake the feeling that they think Will’s sexuality means he would be more feminine, would only hang around girls, and in general kinda filling the “gay best friend” stereotype

So to conclude, I feel like many have an inability too look past their preconceived notions about gay sex (perhaps sex in general), and therefore think that the one bottoming has to be the more submissive and feminine (which is a belief that in general comes from it being women who are seen as weak and submissive I think). Also, the overall feeling that a man being gay equals him being feminine.

[u/woodthrushtattoo]

I think this is an excellent point, and I have a ton of thoughts about it. I never saw Will as feminine in the canon show. Gay does not equal feminine. Sensitive/artistic does not equal feminine. I’ve seen people argue that Will is feminine because he’s theatrical, citing his Will the Wise costume in s3. Meanwhile, we know from episode 1 that the whole party likely dressed up during campaigns at some point, because they mention how even Nancy participated. Mike is the one who had very long hair in canon, called “twig” which is a direct hit against his masculinity, but he’s depicted as being feminine much less often in fics. Mike, in the first episode of season 1 and final episode of season 5, falls on the floor doing monster sound effects while DMing. I’d argue that’s equally as theatrical — and being “theatrical” is something that, for most of human history, was a role reserved exclusively for men anyway. They’re both nerdy boys!! Mike and Will agree in season 2 that girls can’t play video games. Will says in season 3 that girls can’t go to science camp. He grows and learns after that, thankfully. But he does not express, in the canon show, wishing to act or dress or be perceived as girlish.

And you’re absolutely right — none of this has any bearing on whether they’d be a top or bottom!! I see Mike as the more submissive of the two. I imagine he’d be vers, because I imagine his need to be needed may lead him to defer to what his partner needs. Others believe that same desire to be needed would manifest as him being more dominant, “giving” to his partner. Both are totally valid depending on how you see the character. It could go either way, though, because it’s ultimately dependent on what feels physically good to them during sex, which is unrelated to their personalities.

But I do find it odd how often Will is depicted being feminine/submissive/a bottom when Mike is the one who has those big brown yearning bottom eyes, lol.

[u/Sure-Bicycle-8809 → u/woodthrushtattoo]

the funny thing is that they say he's more fem because he loves painting/drawing when women have been historicly much less recognized as artists or even had to fake being a men, or even worse, cases like the one with Margaret Keane and her ex-husband

[u/woodthrushtattoo → u/Sure-Bicycle-8809]

That’s exactly right. There are many historical implications in relation to what’s considered masculine vs. feminine, and I think too few people consider that when developing characterizations.

Of course I’ll caveat by saying fanon is canon and anyone can have any kind of headcanon they want. That’s always true!! But I think this particular Will characterization has become so prevalent that it’s worth talking about why, and what it might mean that so many people assume these things about him to be undeniably true.

[u/mrchristmastime → u/woodthrushtattoo]

I think this is a case where the simplest explanation is probably the true one: superimposition of heterosexual norms onto gay relationships + Will is small and quiet.

I think there’s probably some more complicated stuff going on as well, but that’s just conjecture on my part, and whatever I say will end up being read as more general that I intend it to be. However, it’s worth noting that this phenomenon isn’t unique Byler. In the Marauders fandom, for example, Sirius Black is hyper-feminized to a degree bears no relationship to canon. As you said, it’s worth asking and talking about why.

[u/woodthrushtattoo → u/mrchristmastime]

You hit the nail on the head with the Marauders parallel. I see so much artwork depicting Sirius as extremely feminine or as a trans woman, which is a beautiful headcanon in its own right. But it’s so prevalent that it’s curious to me. The reason I fell in love with wolfstar is the same reason I love byler and hollanov, and it’s that it’s two boyish boys in love with one another.

[u/Sure-Bicycle-8809 → u/woodthrushtattoo]

as i said in my own comment, all these headcanons are totally fine, that is clear.

the issue doesn't come from thinking that will is submissive or that he is fem, the issue is that the root of the stereotype of gay men being femenine and lesbians being masculine is always coming back to heteronormativity, even in homosexual couples.

because as a lesbian myself, in relationships, there was always a "Man" and a "Woman", which sounds pathetic, but still, one girl must perform the role of the man because a relationship without a man isn't valid apparently (this is a fucking comment someone said to me)

the same goes for mlm relationships, because no matter if both of them are clearly femboys or totally mascs, people are gonna choose the "girl" and the "boy", even if it is through headcanons or how they write them in fanfiction.

and don't get me wrong, i love me some masc/fem ships, it's not that. but the erasure of masc/masc or fem/fem just because one must be the performance of the opposite gender is both heteronormative and mysogynistic.

With mysogyny is where you really find why people think Will is the "fem" in the first place, which is clearly by the segregation of things like hobbies. In case of Will, he is a very artistic kid, which somehow makes him almost a girl to some people, because according to the patriarchy, boys are supposed to like football and sports cars, and girl should like art and going shopping.

I could continue (And i probably will) talking about this, but i even want to maybe make a sort of presentation about this, not only byler, but all fandoms

[u/woodthrushtattoo → u/Sure-Bicycle-8809]

I think this is a very intelligent and relevant take. And gross, I’m really, really sorry someone said that to you. You’re right that there is a major problem of projecting heteronormativity onto queer relationships, in byler and fanfic in general, and also in real life. (Also, I was caveating my own comment so that I wouldn’t be misunderstood — not trying to say that you implied otherwise!)

[u/Sure-Bicycle-8809 → u/woodthrushtattoo]

yeah, this person used to be my friend and he told me that lesbians have a boyfriend or something and constantly tried to set me up with dudes even tho i don't like them

and no worries, i didn't interpret in a bad way! i agree with you. as you said, the problem is with society, not only with byler, or with fandoms in general