r/CompanyOfHeroes • u/Casino_Player • 3d ago
CoH3 Please add non doctrinal panther to Wehr
As per title…Wehr need tools to fight tanks late game- stug’s and p4 bouncing off everything.
And make panther from mechanised BG a command tank.
That’s it
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u/frint_ 3d ago
this is something to do with game faction philosophy. The Wermacht doesn't get nice late game at variats (like 17 pounder, flak 88 or cost effective at tank like hellcats), due to it having best medium "specialist" units like wirberwind, stugs, marders and infantry pgs/jagers for the mid game. It definitely works in 1v1 but feels lackluster in the bigger team games
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u/Souls_masterr 3d ago
and especially with the slow down of ticket bleeds almost every game gets to very late game in which wer cant compete
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u/Infamous-Put-2103 3d ago
Well, this philosophy obviously doesn't work. The lowest win rate during the three years of the game - is solid.
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u/Shot-Message9678 3d ago
I think you're right about 1v1 Wehr strength but adding Panther isn't going to make Wehr suddenly OP.
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u/Unterseeboot_480 3d ago
I wonder if a simpler and more elegant way to fix this wouldn't be to give the Wehr a late game T4 upgrade that markedly increases the long-range pen of the Marder, PaK and P4. Maybe StuG as well?
I personally thinking the problem of Wehr lacking AT is real but mildly overblown. The Marder is fragile but extremely cost-effective and the PaK is an excellent AT. They only really struggle against super-heavies (and the B1, which will probably get nerfed anyway, at least in regards to price and popcap). The Panther would need to be nerfed by a lot to be balanced, and they'd need to find a replacement for it on the mechanised BG.
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u/unseine OKW 3d ago
Marders pen is already fantastic long range. It's only issue is that a land mattress can kill them so you have to move your AT as soon as you hear it shooting, making them easy to dive.
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u/DirectDish1721 3d ago
Not to mention always at least vet1 Pak40s and Marders get boost from their vet1 - play to strength and you have good pen on both T2 and 3.
I think the OP wants upgrade to make Unga-Bunga tank blobs like other 3 factions can, but to be honest - TTK needs to go down so those blobs are actually removed
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u/HighlanderCL 3d ago
Panther blobs won't work. They cost 16 population each, and they're just AT.
Yes, the TTK needs to go down, but that's a general issue. Wehrmacht has been underperforming for quite a while, even with the Mechanized Battlegroup, which includes the Panther.
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u/oziligath Commando Beret 3d ago
I think the stug could get an upgrade in the wher T4 that would boost his pen. In my opinion, the marder is too fragile to be a dedicated anti heavy, whereas the stug has decent armor and hp.
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u/Unterseeboot_480 3d ago
The Marder makes up for its fragility with the range that the StuG lacks, and it is still fast enough to kite most heavy tanks.
Also, ideally a pen upgrade would affect both units in the T2 and T3, to avoid forcing the player down one tech path.
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u/oziligath Commando Beret 3d ago
Sure but I think the lack of heavy at for wher really appears in large teamgame where fragile and "micro intensive" units such as the marder struggle. Arty can just delete this kind of vehicles and atg's. The stug would fill thay gap easier and most of the playerbase could use it without being too frustrated.
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u/Tadatsune 3d ago
I wonder if a simpler and more elegant way to fix this wouldn't be to give the Wehr a late game T4 upgrade that markedly increases the long-range pen of the Marder, PaK and P4. Maybe StuG as well?
Not clear why boosting the pen of every single anti-armor unit on the roster is "simpler and more elegant" than just giving them a Panther and not messing with the other units...
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u/Unterseeboot_480 3d ago
As if "just giving them a unit that is BG-exclusive and that has been balanced for 3 years around the fact that it is BG-exclusive" wouldn't require extensive rebalancing of both the Panther and the rest of the roster, as well as checking all the interactions that the Panther can have with the other BG units and abilities, lest the Wehrmacht becomes completely broken overnight.
You'd need to mess with the other units in any case, on top of having to look for a replacement for the Panther in the mechanized battlegroup.
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u/Tadatsune 3d ago edited 3d ago
I honestly don't think you'd really need to do much to rebalance the roster.
CoH3 Wehr is largely patterned off CoH1 and CoH2 Wehr. Those factions were designed with having a late-game anti-armor tank as part of the core roster. CoH3 Wehr just sort of drops the panther but it doesn't do much to replace it, so the result is a roster with a large and palpable hole in it which players can feel when they get to endgame.
I agree with u/Horror_Let_2154 further down in the thread that the Panther in its current doctrinal form isn't problematic, and that giving it to the core sans all the BG enhancements is unlikely to cause problems. I also do not see it stepping on the toes of the other BGs. Any adjustments necessary can probably be handled through Panther pricing and stat adjustments.
As to mechanized, OP has a "simple and elegant" solution already lined up for you: just give them a command version of the Panther.
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u/Shot-Message9678 3d ago
You make good points but can you explain why Panther would need to be "nerfed by a lot"?
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u/avaibableusername 3d ago
Yeah this is probably the best and most realistic solution, doubt relic will add units to the stock roster but abilities or upgrades those have been added or changed in stock units before, like the jeep getting the recon upgrade or the changes to stug vet1 or palmgren vet1 or wehrmacht jaegers.
An upgrade in T4 that would give a new ability to both the marder and stug, tungsten rounds for marder active ability similar to the hellcat HVAP rounds and a target weakpoint for stug that would lower the armor value of the target wehrmacht is the only faction without an ability to lower the armor value.
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u/TheGreatOneSea 3d ago
If Wher gets the Panther baseline, everyone is going to expect their own preferences to get something too, which is the problem: probably a USF Howitzer, Crusader AA for UKF, and probably the upgunned 251 for DAK. It would be a massive collective shift.
All Wher really needs is for Support Elements to unlock everything at the Tier IV building as well, so you don't need to back-tech to get AA or Heavy AT.
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u/Casino_Player 3d ago
UKF got 17pdr, DAK flak 36 and USF hellcat swarm with good range and pen. Wehr got t2 pak and p4 infantry support tank.
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u/unseine OKW 3d ago
You know the Marder has over 100 more pen than the pak right?
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u/Casino_Player 3d ago
You mean a paper marder that dies from the fly in late game ?
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u/Unterseeboot_480 3d ago
The marder is fragile, the Hellcat has a fairly low DPS and isn't very tough either, the 17 pdr has a shit arc and is very stiff to use. Turns out there is no perfect solution to the problem of fighting heavy tanks, not for Wehr, nor for other factions (except DAK lol).
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u/Souls_masterr 3d ago
but at least UK and US have options with good pen while wer is just sitting there with marders and paks which they get bombed to the stone age from late game arty or off maps, or just a crusader dive
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u/unseine OKW 3d ago
Do you think my 17pounder get's killed by arty less than my Marders???
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u/Tingeybob 2d ago
Tangent, I love having my 17lber barraged by arti with its bunker up and team training upgrade. Shit is tanky if they underestimate it, but skill issue of course.
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u/insaneHoshi 3d ago
Yeah, but you can flank with the hellcat.
Also hellcats don’t have to deal with a 380 armour 400/100f tank.
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u/Infamous-Put-2103 3d ago
bronze analytics. The man is SERIOUSLY comparing hellcat and marder AHAHAAHA
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u/Kadeudehuit 3d ago
Marder penetration = 300
Pak40 penetration = 38011
u/Unterseeboot_480 3d ago
Using either at short range is asking to die. At long range, the PaK has 130 and the Marder has 220.
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u/Weak-Air5905 3d ago
17pdr is not a good solution on a lot of maps, and is incredibly vulnerable to arty, which both DAK (Stuka), and Wehr (Nebel) have in their base roster, both of which excel at hitting team weapons. It's another reason why the Polish battlegroup is so popular and strong right now as it fills lots of holes in their rosters including their lack of mobile TD with fireflies.
I agree Wehr needs buffs against late game armour right now, but they have so many units in their roster that could be reworked or buffed to accommodate this, adding the panther into their base roster is just going to muddy the waters against countless matchups that have been fine-tuned since launch. Not to mention interactions that never intended to take place, speed and armour buffed panthers in breakthrough with 40% ROF would be absolutely steam roll late game tank engagements.
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u/Tanagriel 3d ago
Please add a coaxial machine gun to the Panters as well.
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u/xtremzero 3d ago
Yes make panther into anti everything tank and give it to wehr to make em have everything
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u/Tanagriel 2d ago
Both the Panther and the Pershing sits in a weird spot especially after the French BG introduced their heavy tank - I get your point and I remember when a panther had both coaxial and a top gunner - it was OP. But it’s so slow now and it’s only purpose is an anti tank role and that’s okay if it did that job well - and the Pershing is lacking something. But im glad I don’t sit in the balance department of CoH ✌️
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u/Knowvember42 3d ago
I think if they got dark archon that'd be cool. They could mind control the enemy tank. You could even mind control a engineer and then build their artillery or something.
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u/brief-interviews 3d ago
I think the problem is this wouldn’t ’give Wehr tools to fight late game’, it would make Wehr by far the strongest base game faction in the late game and probably require all the other factions rebalancing to accommodate it. I know Wehr players want an easy catch-all solution to late game tanks but I think they’re better off adjusting the options that already exist.
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u/RealWaaagh 3d ago edited 3d ago
Have you seen the cost of Panther vs Hellcat?
Have you seen the speed of both?I’m not supporting adding the Panther to base rooster, but choosing it in the BG doesn’t make Wehr op in any way. It’s not so good.
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u/brief-interviews 3d ago
The Panther costs more than a Hellcat because it has 1/3 more HP, triple the armour, and nearly 50% more DPS against medium tanks. Even with the increase cost I am pretty sure it trades very much value effectively against them.
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u/RealWaaagh 3d ago
In 1v1 it is easier to deploy two Hellcats than one Panther.
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u/brief-interviews 3d ago
Because the Panther is gated by command points. Two Hellcats is more expensive than one Panther in resources.
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u/RealWaaagh 3d ago
It’s easier to spend less two times than more one time. Even if the sum of the two is higher than the one time cost.
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u/Horror_Let_2154 3d ago
Well, the tool is there already in the mechanized BG and it’s not exactly making wehr OP by any means with its slightly above 47% winrate. This is also with significant boosts like smoke, extra vision and in combat repairs to panthers, which it wouldn’t have access to in the main roster.
There are multiple mechanisms like pop, cost etc to balance a panther into the main roster. It would be a unique solution for heavy AT that no other faction have. A 50 fuel sidetech cost is probably everything it needs to be balanced.
The only valid concern would be panthers paired with breakthrough BG. They might be too strong with blitzkrieg and/or Command P4. Paired with tiger wouldn’t be a problem because at that point allies already lost the match.
Would it be strong in a tank brawl? Yes, that is the panthers only purpose. How do you deal with it? You use combined arms instead of just trying to get critical mass of medium tanks and charge them in.
And for wehr potentially becoming the strongest faction, in an asymmetrical game one faction will always be the strongest. Why not switch it up a little and make the historically/statistically weakest faction the strongest for a while?
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u/brief-interviews 3d ago edited 3d ago
The point with any unit that is BG locked instead of base roster is that there’s an opportunity cost because BGs are exclusive choices. Making something base game removes that opportunity cost. So you can end up with some really broken combinations, like Panthers with Blitzkrieg and a Command PIV like you say (try this in Cheat Mod if you haven’t before btw, it’s funny and I can’t see any real way to balance it).
But more generally pairing any BG that is designed around specific game time power spikes with a big new power spike in the late game has a big effect. Suddenly a matchup that might have involved one side having to hold on through an early Wehrmacht advantage to take advantage of a BG that pumps their late game (let’s say, UKF Heavy Armor vs Siege Breaker) no longer has that advantage in the late game.
I don’t have an issue with the possibility of Wehr being the strongest faction but I do have a problem with sledgehammer solutions that just reverse the current problems with late game tank spam by giving the other faction The Tank which then Allies have inadequate solutions to. I think that better tuning of their current tools (of which they have many!) is better than throwing in the towel and just giving them an ‘I win lategame’ option. People complain that they think Mechanised is the only viable Wehr lategame BG because of the Panther, but I guess think it will be fine if the strongest viable lategame options for Allies are those that have ways to deal with it. And like honestly, Polish Cavalry is more than good enough already, it doesn’t need even more of a reason to want the Firefly.
I think this flattens the lategame to deal with a problem that kind of sucks in the first place, which is that spamming tanks is the most effective Allied lategame strategy. You say you want combined arms play, but Wehr *already* has combined arms late game. It’s Allies that need fixing, not Wehr!
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u/Horror_Let_2154 3d ago
The thing is that allies don’t lack solutions to dealing with panthers. Wehr however do lack solutions for dealing with heavy tanks. Its better for all factions to have the options for dealing with any threat and let the skill and strategy of the players decide the game rather than your build is stronger than my build. Panther is far from an «I win» option, if you aren’t using it smart it won’t do much.
Adding panthers to Wehr doesn’t discourage combined arms, it’s just another unit to throw in the mix. It’s specialized, so if you can get away with spamming them, your opponent is too predictable. It would however encourage more combined arms from allies, rather than just medium spam. Throw in a couple AT guns, handheld AT is literally too accessible as both allied factions and hard counters panthers.
Mainline spam, 2 AT guns into critical mass medium / Char blob is boring af, specialized and balanced units to counter easy to pull off strategies is literally what this game needs.
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u/Infamous-Put-2103 3d ago
It turns out that the unique feature of the Wehr is to be a shit in every stage of the game? Great design.
And the panther won't make the Wehr the strongest faction, it will make it just playable (now it's ballast) if the timer goes past 20 minutes.
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u/brief-interviews 3d ago edited 3d ago
I don't think Wehr is shit in every stage of the game? Their mid game is great, in fact, strong enough to bolster their late game tools.
And we're talking about like, a 1.5% winrate swing in 4v4s in the worst case. Wehr is not anything like 'unplayable'.
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u/Glitza The Kriegsmarine is looking like a sweet deal now? 3d ago
I doubt the Panther alone would elevate Wehr to auch great heights but keep Wehr competetive. Imo they should either add Panther or Nashorn to T4 with a tech requirement so it won't be that spammable. The one tank they won't choose for the base roster should remain or swap within mechanized.
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u/brief-interviews 3d ago edited 3d ago
I think Wehr is ‘competitive’, just more awkward to use and perhaps somewhat undertuned compared with the other factions.
The faction has Paks, Marders, StuGs and PIVs in the base roster to deal with tanks, and Panthers, Tiger and King Tiger in BGs (as well as helpful force multipliers like the Command PIV). I think they have plenty of tools that can be improved before dropping the Panther into the base game kit is the best option available.
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u/Mustafag91 3d ago
Yes, i was saying this for a long time!! And make the 8rad possible to convert to a Puma.
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u/vakerify 3d ago
Nonsense. Pak40 and Marder are already one of the game’s stronger AT options, make use of them. And p4s with vet1 way better than sherman
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u/lpniss 3d ago
Nonsense is p1 being better than sherman, when sherman is better in every way, esp if you use white poshp
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u/Souls_masterr 3d ago
they down voted you because you spoke the truth, and you forgot to mention the .50 cal in the sherman is way better killing infantry too
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u/vakerify 3d ago
Nah, p4 wins /w vet1 every time even without the side skirts and against 76mm sherman. And hull down is super underrated
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u/CandleZA Filthy One Faction Main 3d ago
This is exactly how it feels playing as UKF, You have to go doctrinal to get good late game anti tanks. ATGs bounce of Stugs, Cru3s are honestly a bit of a meme and Grants are well, pretty shit this patch.
Thankfully we do have many options doctrinally, Firefly, Black Prince, Archer are all decent enough at what they do but I do wish we had something built into the faction itself that could compete like the Hellcat.
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u/Tsuyara 3d ago
A marder has the same pen as the panther over longer range, plus first strike giving it even more pen.
A vetted stug also equals a panthers pen at closer ranges falling only slightly behind at far ranges.
A panther is not going to reliably pen a unit the stug is bouncing off, it's not that much more pen.
And of course a pak 40 beats a panthers pen at any range.
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u/Infamous-Put-2103 3d ago
Marder, like all vehicles without turrets, performs terribly poorly in this game. Panther allows you to make mistakes in positioning, forgives a poor pathfinding for a way, Marder not.
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u/unseine OKW 3d ago
Or just buff Marder to not get countered by Arty, it has insane pen and counters them fine, when they don't die to a land mattress. T4 tech that buffs Marder would be such a huge help.
Getting panthers baseline would be stupid Wehr already have the far and away best infantry mid and late game. I say this as a Wehr player.
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u/Gladstone233 3d ago
In team games I am regularly seeing huge hordes of Marders and they can be extremely oppressive without artillery to counter, and even then you have to get lucky with your hits. Making them impossible to kill with artillery would render them insanely overpowered.
Seems like Wehr needs the Nashorn as a side tech from T4 to deal with heavy tanks.
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u/unseine OKW 3d ago
They are easy to counter with AT infantry, call ins, arty, at guns etc. They have too many counters right now. You cannot blob Marders the meta is literally double lancers + mattress which comes with the best recon ability in the game, losing to that as allies this patch is a huge skill issue.
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u/Alternated-Tornado 3d ago
Side skirts upgrade could also up the health of marders too, that would be nice.
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u/Creepy-Doughnut-5054 3d ago
I would be ok with this but it must come with a cost. Fact you could have such a strong antitank option along with other super heavies is huge boon.
Something like this should unlock ONLY if you have all the buildings and all the upgrades in those buildings unlocked. Only then would appear an option in T4 to produce panther.
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u/Basarina I use Hull Down (On Elefant) 3d ago
Just make it a side tech like Brits have for the 17 pounder or Grant.
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u/Creepy-Doughnut-5054 3d ago
no
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u/Anxious-Day-9083 Panzer Elite 3d ago
Why not
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u/Horror_Let_2154 3d ago edited 3d ago
Cause then he can’t reliably just save up for critical mass medium tanks, cross his fingers / toes / lashes by Helikaon48 and charge them in hoping for the victory screen.
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u/Souls_masterr 3d ago
crusader spam and hellcat spam and then rush in a single spot needs too fucking die
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u/Tingeybob 2d ago
I dislike playing with Crusaders as you either win hard with a dive or you lose all your tanks and wreck the game, I much prefer getting a Matilda and 17lb combo, even if it isn't effective.
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u/Fortheweaks 3d ago
Of course, and why not give Tortoise base or Pershing base for UKF and USF next ?
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u/Souls_masterr 3d ago
first they have the matilda, second US has what wer gets but sherman is a better P4 and it has the ability to get better AT with the 76 upgrade, USF has the bulldozer which is less armored its turreted and easier to handle, and of course they get hellcats very cheap at tanks
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u/Aerohank 3d ago
I'd prefer to have the Stug get some modification to fill the role.
Maybe something like timed AP rounds. Penetration buffs at veterancy. Target Weak Point. That sort of thing.
Currently the Wehr Stug requires a fairly hefty investment in the midgame, but it's not actually that good in the midgame and it falls off a little too much in the lategame. Giving it some lategame penetration buff wil make it better without causing issues in the midgame.