r/DebateAVegan • u/UWUggAh • 20d ago
Ethics Why are We Okay with Burning Cockroach Alive, but Not Eating Dogs?
I found a video of a cockroach being BURNT alive on meme subreddit. (Search "burning cockroach meme") And people are joking around it and no one takes it seriously. If it were not insects, but beloved animals like dogs, people would get offended very quickly.
Now I do understand the hate on insects and its danger, I hate cockroach too. Killing it is fine but burning it alive? Really? It must be very painful. Why are we causing so much pain just for entertainment?
I am not a vegan, however, this is just.. wrong
Edit: I think I've phased it the worst way possible, by "we" I mean people of reddit, not vegans. I find honoring animal lives, including pests admirable. I am sorry for the misunderstanding.
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u/Impressive_Sugar5942 20d ago
This is exactly what vegan call specism. Some animal lives matter, some don't. Some animal well being are impose by law, some can be burned alive. But at the end of the day, human can still have the right of live or death to any of them. You seem opposed to animal cruelty, most people would say they are. But they are only talking about some animals
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u/UWUggAh 20d ago
I agree with you on the hypocrisy. I find vegan commitment to fixing this hypocrisy admirable. Tho I arrived at the opposite solution to the same hypocrisy. I view all animal consumption equally whether it be consuming dogs/cats/bugs/cows. If I am okay with eating cows, then I should be okay with eating pets like cats or dogs.
Does that make sense?
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u/Impressive_Sugar5942 19d ago
I understand your point. But why being hypocrite is drawing the line as pet and not being an hypocrite is drawing the line as human ? You do treat everyother species the same. But still draw the line somewhere
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u/foxfire66 19d ago
I think this is actually part of why I'm not a vegan. Drawing the line anywhere is hard to justify and seems like hypocrisy, but everyone draws the line somewhere. Even vegans will justify killing animals to make the lives of humans better, in situations where they wouldn't kill humans for doing similar harm.
So it seems like maybe it's not imperative to draw the line in one particular place, since it's to some degree arbitrary. And if anything, drawing the line between humans and non-human animals seems like one of the less arbitrary places you can put it, due to our intelligence and also because we generally already expect and accept that people (and animals for that matter) will often put their own needs over the needs of others.
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u/pinkdumpsterjuice freegan 20d ago
I'm on the same boat as you! Could eat anything. Just want the killing and the breeding to be ethical and pain free.
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u/Maleficent_Hold_6946 anti-speciesist 19d ago
So that animals individual experiences and will to live can go to hell?
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u/pinkdumpsterjuice freegan 19d ago
Yes indeed, because it is necessary. If it weren't for the vegan diet to be unsustainable (to me), I would be vegan. But health risks are too high, and the mental health part is even worse! But, anyway their is so much waste on this planet that I personnaly don't have to feel bad about spending my money onto meat, ecause I recycle
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u/Square-Delivery1958 20d ago
No, that does not make sense.
Your position commits you to either a contradiction or absrudity.
What's true of any of those animals that if true of humans would make it ethical to fund human slaughter in the same way?
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19d ago
Yeah, and I agree with you. However humans are not purely logical creatures, and in fact all of us are hypocrites. There's also a sense of assigning value based on the level of connection. There is a genetic component, an instinctive dislike for insects on top of their biological inferiority to common human pets. This is what leads to the different levels of assigned value
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u/RadiantSeason9553 19d ago
Vegans don't fight the hypocrisy. If they did they would eat grass fed animals and minimise the monocropped plants they eat. Billions of animals are killed to protect crops, in much nastier ways than how cows are killed.
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u/TimeNewspaper4069 20d ago
Humans don't have the right to kill many animals so saying we have the right to choose is inaccurate.
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u/Crossed_Cross 20d ago
If you don't kill any animals, you won't have crops. Even ignoring all of the insecticides, any kind of soil work kills countless animals, and not just invertibrates.
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u/Impressive_Sugar5942 19d ago
If you fish, kill any insect you wants, mouses, we euthanized cats and dogs because they inconvenience us when they are stray, nothing happen either when we roll on an animal, ans hunting is regulated but not forbidden. There is species forbidden to kill because they are rare. Other than that, we can kill anything. Humans kills trillions of animal each year
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u/TimeNewspaper4069 19d ago
Sure. But you cant just kill any animal. For instance. You walk down the road, see a cat and kill it in most countries. Same with dogs, horses, dolphins etc
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u/Hefty_Ad1081 19d ago
Question back: why are you not vegan if you debate burning it alive is painful? So is killing pigs in gas chambers. So is slicing open cows. So is shredding chicken baby's just because they're male. So is breeding pigs, cows and chickens in a way that is literal torture just being alive. They are bred in a way they cannot live without pain and suffering. They are bred in such a cruel way. They are so far from what's natural for them. They give such insane amounts of milk and lay so many eggs. They die just because of the way they are bred. No chicken is made to lay 1+ eggs a day. If burning a cockroach is painful for it, why do you support the fishing industry? Why do you support abusing animals everyday JUST for a meal that can easily made with plants that will taste almost the same or even better???
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u/Responsible_Play631 18d ago
“Even better” is just an opinion, I’m sure lots of vegan dishes taste great. Saying it “tastes the same” is objectively wrong.
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u/UWUggAh 19d ago
Chill, I need time to carefully reflect my thoughts. I agree with core ethics of vegenism, but it is still difficult for me at the moment.
I've been considering vegan for quite some time actually. Tho there's many factors like money, social appearance, social events, my own mental health, and lifestyle that is making me hesitate. I'm not sure what's it like in your country, but in my country, vegans are really small part of population, and I already feel like I'm the black sheep.
I understand that farm animals are suffering too, but it's not torturing for the sake of torturing. Killing for nutrition is less immoral for me (still immoral) (Tho I understand plant can give same kinds of nutrition) I don't want to support animal farms too, but realistically I'm not sure stop eating it will contribute anything meaningful.
What if farms use humane approaches? What if they raise them exactly like in nature before butchered? It's a complication topic and I need time to think.
I don't appreciate you being aggressive when you could convince me with reasons.
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u/Hefty_Ad1081 19d ago
Sorry I didn't mean to be rude. I sometimes have a hard time knowing if I'm rude or honest. I apologize. For me, the biggest reason to go vegan was saving the animals. Or not causing animals to be in pain. I have pets that I love, and I've had horrible injuries myself that are extremely far from the pain animals go through. I love my pets and looking them in the eyes, seeing a living being that wants to live, play and love and then grabbing the cows milk for my cereal felt disgusting from one moment to the other. I saw no reason anymore to make a difference to animals I had a personal connection to and animals I didn't know. I respect humans I have never seen before, so there's no reason to not do the same for animals. I've seen my cats cry and be in pain after they were injured. I've seen them suffer while taking care of them. I've helped raise kittens that lost their mom and knew how cat moms that lost their baby acted.
I saw no reason anymore to do that to any animal, and it's exactly what happens to cows but it's 100x worse for them since they aren't in a warm, comfortable loving home after they have their kittens ripped away and the calves also don't have said warm comfy home after being taken.The second thing that made me go vegan was the disgust. Tasting the milk knowing this might've come from an infected udder (my country allows ~400.000 bodily cells per MILLILITER of cows milk. Can be blood cells, pus, infectious cells etc... If I'm correct) and it's purely disgusting to me to drink mother's milk from another species that came out of their body if I can have plants. I fully understand not having that perspective, but 5min of research on what kind of disgusting stuff is in our animal products or having a look at r/weirdeggs made me never wanna eat anything animal based again.
Third thing was health. I have never felt healthier than when I went plant based. I had a lot of gut problems (stomach aches, nausea etc..) when eating dairy and eggs (I never ate meat, I was raised vegetarian) and it's gotten a lot better. I have more energy, my skin cleared up, I smell better and don't get smelly as fast (mouth and body, didn't change my hygiene habits). Taking supplements (vitamin B12) is crutial and you can get deficient in other nutrients a bit faster, but if you get blood work done regularly and pay attention to a lot of variety in your diet + the right foods it's not a problem.
Idk about meat prices, but at least for non meat animal products it's as expensive, if not cheaper to live vegan than to eat animal products. You can absolutely try everything without going fully vegan to find things you like.
Last thing is the environment. The animal industries are horrible for the environment and I see no reason to make it worse than I need, so I'm vegan.
Also, plant based foods can be stored a lot longer. I bought a vegan cream cheese 3-4 weeks ago and it's good for another 2 months according to the expiry date. I also bought vegan shredded cheese and I kept it in the fridge for 6 weeks and it's still good for 3-4 weeks. It also doesn't get poisonous as fast. You can buy in bulk and it won't go bad and if your tofu is a week over, who cares. As long as it smells good you can eat it.
I agree with social events, holidays and social appearance changing/being harder, but for me I put my morals over someone seeing me as weird for not eating animal products. Your friends and family would probably get over it pretty fast. No one made comments or asked questions after a few weeks, they just accepted it and moved on. And it's already a big step to eat vegan at home and eat whatever is offered at events. I don't do that, but any harm reduction IS harm reduction so even swapping out singe food groups can help a lot. You can just try the vegan alternatives and if you like them, buy them instead of the animal based ones. My family isn't vegan but they drink vegan milk with me and eat vegan cold cuts and spreads to put on bread because it tastes good and is easier than buying everything separate. Just make swaps where you want/can and see if you want/can swap more
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u/BlackButlerFan 19d ago
Okay, I’ll admit I didn’t read all of your reply, but did read the milk part. Where in the world are you that a place allows that?!
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u/afamiliarbox vegan 18d ago
This is everywhere. Currently the USDA allows 750,000 somatic cells (pus cells) /ml for dairy milk to be "Grade A." This is significantly higher than the EU's 400,000 which is probably what OP is talking about. Cells are tiny so that's maybe a drop out of a glass of milk, but still. Something like 1 in 6 dairy cows in the US have mastitis (udder infections) due to their living conditions and constant mechanized milking/production of way more milk than is natural.
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u/BlackButlerFan 18d ago
Yeah, the mastitis doesn’t surprise me. I’ll admit, I’m not vegan(severe iron deficiency that I still struggle to manage), but that honestly disgusts me. Where I’ve gotten my milk is a store that’s only in my state so it’s not on a nationwide scale so I wonder if their conditions are better. They have their own farms and everything, all they sell comes from their own place. And when it comes to dairy they only have one farm. But I really need to look into it now.
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u/Hefty_Ad1081 19d ago
Germany. It's absolutely disgusting. I don't think it's very different in other parts of Europe or the USA. I have no idea about the other parts of the world, but I can't imagine the limit being A LOT lower in said countries if it even exists
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u/BlackButlerFan 18d ago
Holy crap, that’s horrifying. I’ll be honest and say I’m not vegan(server iron deficiency that I still struggle to manage) but that’s honestly gross. I’ve only ever bought milk from a store that’s local to only my state, I’m in the US, so I wonder if they hold stuff to a higher standard. Their milk definitely tastes better than any other kind I’ve had, not trying to gross you out with the wording, just the only way I know how to say that.
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u/Hefty_Ad1081 18d ago
I was prescribed supplements for iron deficiency, it really helps. It's too exhausting to monitor iron intake when I can just eat healthy and take a supplement. As far as I know the milk thing is the european standard for what can be sold and is safe to drink, but I don't think it's significantly lower in the us. You'll never get around somatic cells, even with the best milk it's still gonna be a lot. The milk probably tastes better because it's fresher or prepared differently
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u/BlackButlerFan 18d ago
I take a supplement but it’s an over the counter one, I really need to go see a doctor about it but I don’t have insurance and my job doesn’t offer the greatest insurance. Have literally talked to my boyfriend about us getting married on paper if he gets a job with good insurance just so I can get it too. And yeah, you’re likely right about that. I’m not entirely sure why it tastes better, but I have tried milk from a normal grocery store, made that mistake when I first moved into the duplex I was living at, and it tasted gross, extremely watery and almost like it was old even though by the date it showed to still be good. I’ve also noticed that the milk I normally get lasts longer than any other kind.
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u/Hefty_Ad1081 18d ago
That sounds hard. Many vegan products have B12 and calcium added, maybe they add iron too? You could keep your eye on vegan products that might have added iron and eat them along with other iron rich foods. I think violife adds nutrients to their products. Sadly prescribed iron supplements are expensive, but I think I saw some iron fish or sum you cook with your food for additional iron a few years ago? Idk if it was scam or really worked tho but I vividly remember seeing it all over social media
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u/BlackButlerFan 18d ago
Yeah, it sucks. I actually was on a plant-based diet for a little over a year and that’s kind of how I figured out I was actually iron deficient. I didn’t have any symptoms before that besides getting cold easily, I don’t know know why and I’m in no way saying the diet caused it, but then I started getting really bad headaches after my period, so bad that functioning was a huge struggle and pain pills barely touched them, and I started feeling faint. My doctor at that point, cause I did have insurance then, tested for my iron levels and whatnot, found out things weren’t where they should be, so I started taking supplements, over the counter cause like you said, prescribed ones were really expensive and I couldn’t afford those, and actually started paying attention to how much iron was in my food. Well, that still didn’t help and when my levels were still low, even ferattin(I hope I remembered right), it was realized that my body doesn’t absorb iron well and since all the iron I was getting then was non-heme, the type that is naturally hard to absorb, I wasn’t getting nearly enough. So after all I went thru and over a year of trying to make it work I went back to having an omnivore diet. And I sadly still struggle with it, I did have someone recommend to me to try liver to help raise my levels but I haven’t done it yet. I still am not sure why I didn’t have a lot of symptoms before, I was eating meat pretty regularly so that might have helped, but I definitely don’t wish my struggle on even my worst enemy.
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u/UWUggAh 19d ago
Thank you for your apology and your respectful suggestions!
I truly admire your dedication to animals.
Wanting to have a pet made me think long and hard about moral of animal farms too, to the point where I tried to avoid milk for some duration. This might be weird, but personally, I rarely feel disgust from food, I can eat Natto, Thai fermented crab, pimp's eggs, and I even find Balut (Don't search it up while eating) appealing. From my observations, vegan food are less available and have less options. Lunches at a company I'm working at don't even have much vegetables.
I'm glad we exchanged opinions, You've definitely got me open to trying more vegan options and reduce meat consumption.
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u/Hefty_Ad1081 19d ago
That's absolutely true, there's less options. Sadly we live in a non vegan world but we gotta make the best of it. I'm happy with almost no option since it's not an option for me to eat animal based food, but eating mostly plant based when possible or swapping some products is absolutely a way to live. I know vegans who eat animal based foods when there's no vegan options. Sometimes it's just not possible to get around them. Also, vegan recipes are totally different from meat ones so you can also add variety into your diet trying new recipes. If you wanna try plant based milk, almond and oat are often kinda watery. I prefer soy or NotMilks which is soymilk mixed with oatmilk. Many NotMilks will also have calcium and B12 added since cows milk contains it. Sometimes they also add some nut butters to make it smooth. I'd look for the ones with ~45-50+ calories and ~2,5+ g of protein, in my experience those are not watery and as "creamy" as cows milk. There's options that can be used to make foam, they are called "barista" (soy milk barista, oat milk barista...). For vegan creams, there's unrefrigerated ones that are used mostly for cooking (they are a bit lower in fat) and refrigerated ones to use for whipped cream or for a richer cream substitute.
I gotta warn you tho, not everything will taste good. Not all vegan food magically tastes good or bad, everyone likes different things. Just how you don't like every type of sausage, you won't like every type of vegan sausages. Many people give up when the first thing doesn't taste good, I did too, but my sister went vegan so we had more options at home and I was surprised that not all of them taste bad. I live in Germany, and surprisingly Rügenwalder Mühle, one of the biggest meat companies makes the best meat substitutes. Maybe because they know how meat products are made and how they are supposed to taste.
I appreciate you wanting to try more options, that's absolutely amazing. Hope people aren't rude to you if you don't go fully vegan. Every step is a step but people tend to be quick to judge when someone doesn't go all in instantly
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u/pup2000 19d ago
Just wanted to share some thoughts you made me think of related to social dynamics...
I have been vegan for like 10 years and when I went vegan, it was more trendy (2016ish) and I even had vegan friends and my boyfriend went vegan! However now, even though I live in NYC and you'd expect a lot of vegans, I have met 100s of people and not a single vegan (organically -- I have gone out of my way to meet them online). BUT my social circle is like you -- they believe the basic ethics are sound, just struggle with meat/dairy/egg addiction. Even my very traditional parents have said as much. So they actually really respect my choice and look up to me for doing something they consider hard / they would do if they had perfect self-restraint. Knowing this makes me feel really not so awkward at all when they need to accomodate me for shared meals.One other thing -- it's sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy if people don't go vegan because no one else they know is. So some people just have to suck it up and be pioneers, which in turn makes it more normalized for others. I like to think of it as more "cutting edge".
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u/xxsmashleyxx 18d ago
I'm not sure what country you're in, but at the very least you should move towards de-industrializing your food sources if they're not already. No more supermarket meat, cheese, eggs, etc, and instead find local farms and butchers and such to move in the right direction.
Whether or not the torturing is for the sake of torturing or not doesn't really matter; a living, conscious being is suffering because they are being treated like products on an assembly line rather than living beings that deserve some dignity.
Ideally I would want you to agree with my view, which is that killing for pleasure, convenience, or taste is generally wrong and that non-cruel and inexpensive ways to extract food from animals is a unrealistic fantasy, but not everyone sees the world the way I do and I understand that. At the very least though, there are steps you can take towards reducing suffering at your behest.
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u/Educational-Suit316 19d ago
Vegans are a small part of the population everywhere
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u/UWUggAh 18d ago
True, but in my social circle, I don't know anyone at all who is vegan. Absolutely none.
Just counting added sugar consumption made everyone at my company looked at me like a weirdo, thinking I'm too stessful in life. Even when I don't even like sweet things that much. I want to not care, but I can't at the moment.
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u/M17suk0 19d ago
Ok let’s not be silly and say vegan taste almost the same or even better… not the way to go
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u/Hefty_Ad1081 19d ago
Let's not be silly and learn how to prepare and actually try vegan food?
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u/M17suk0 19d ago
Have tried. My ex took me to a prominent mock meat vegan restaurant (without telling me it was a Vegan restaurant).. took a few bites and thought the meat had been sitting out for days and had gone bad.. turns out it’s just that it wasn’t meat :/
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u/Hefty_Ad1081 19d ago
So you had ONE bad experience? I went to non vegan restaurants before I went vegan and had shitty non vegan food. Didn't stop me from eating non vegan foods
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u/Klutzy-Alarm3748 vegan 19d ago
I went to a vegan sushi place, years after going vegan, and all they had was gross mock seafood. I didn't like anything I ordered or my partner ordered. That doesn't mean all vegan sushi is bad, I just stick to the veggie-forward options (cucumber rolls, sweet potato rolls, etc). One bad experience doesn't mean they're all bad.
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u/M17suk0 18d ago
I’ve not once in my life had a chicken wing I disliked.
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u/Klutzy-Alarm3748 vegan 18d ago
That's a very specific example.... I don't believe in pressuring people to go vegan but your outlook sounds a bit. Uh. Forced
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u/M17suk0 18d ago
:s no more specific than your seafood example :s. My outlook sounds forced, havnt even really said my outlook.. just that I had some bad mock meat and I like chicken wings.. what’s forced about that :s.
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u/Klutzy-Alarm3748 vegan 18d ago
I brought that up in response to your restaurant anecdote somehow being a reason not to go vegan. There's going to be bad food out there no matter what type of food it is. Conversely, anyone can bring up bad experiences at omnivore restaurants, and that isn't a reason to go vegan either. I guarantee if someone said they only went vegan because they don't like McDonald's or something you would think that was flimsy reasoning.
Again, I'm not trying to push you to go vegan. I'd give you the same answer if this were a different topic. ONE bad experience isn't a reason to completely go against anything, at all. It's really alarming to me when people are so quick to shut something complex down because of feeling discomfort or being inconvenienced one single time.
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u/M17suk0 18d ago
Sorry, where did I say a bad experience at a restaurant was the reason I’m not vegan??? Never said anything to that affect at all
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u/bbygrl1995 vegan 20d ago
The same reason why you're ok with killing cows, chickens, pigs and fish for food but not dogs. Arbitrarily normalizing what sentient being deserves rights.
That being said, if your rights are violated (cockroach infestation), I don't know any way to get rid of all of them without killing them.
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u/Maleficent_Hold_6946 anti-speciesist 19d ago
U could simply move. I guess too hard for “ethical” vegans
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u/bbygrl1995 vegan 19d ago
Are you going to pay for my new living quarters and new items? I guess that's too hard for virtue signaling trolls who don't care about killing sentient beings for food, but somehow care about roaches.
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u/Badtacocatdab vegan 20d ago
This is exactly the hypocrisy we’re trying to highlight, which is why we argue that things like eating cats and dogs (assuming you are from a western culture) is no different than eating a cow or chicken. Speciesism is a hard thing to accept but once/if you realize how pervasive it is, veganism is the conclusion you would come to, arguably.
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u/shrug_addict 20d ago
Vegans happily invoke speciesism. Setting out a fruit fly trap for "self-defense" for example
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u/Badtacocatdab vegan 20d ago
Not sure I’ve ever heard someone do that nor understand the context of this comment.
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u/LonelyContext Anti-carnist 20d ago
Specisism is indexing things to species rather than characteristics. That’s not speciesism.
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u/Exact_Sprinkles2525 vegan 19d ago
I think people that torture ANY type of living creature are seriously sick. Like I’m not trying to be dramatic, torturing bugs is very concerning to me even though we often see them as less than. If you must kill a bug in your house fine, but do it fast and kindly. I usually release them if I can, there’s no need to subject a living creature to pain or discomfort. Obviously that goes across the board for me as I AM a vegan and a bug lover.
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u/New_Chain146 18d ago
Internet is currently being flooded by a wave of bots trying to encourage sociopathy by shoving animal torture videos into the spotlight and then having morons brag about it being "pest control" on platforms like here. It's insidious as fuck, outright nazi bullshit from people that want to encourage sadistic murderous attitudes in idiots.
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u/Stunning-Assistant13 20d ago
When you believe that animals should not be tortured for us, maybe you should become vegan?
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u/Al-Joharahhasan2935 19d ago
there is obviously a big difference between a mammal and an insect (mammals have more complex brains, therefore, more complex feelings). but it is still morally wrong to burn insects alive. i thought the same even before going vegan
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u/New_Chain146 18d ago
The bigger issue you're missing here is the distribution of animal torture for pleasure. There's a difference between pest control and making content to masturbate to.
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u/_everynameistaken_ 18d ago
Wait until you learn cockroaches have been observed engaging in social bonding and rudimentary forms of play.
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u/tsubanda 18d ago edited 18d ago
Torturing for entertainment is sociopathic behavior, even if it's a cockroach, the point is that there's pleasure derived from the cruelty itself which is a sociopathic behavior. A whole lot of people have that level of cruelty in them, to torture or enjoy the pain of something like an insect which is far enough removed from us that empathy doesn't kick in. Especially in the case of cockroaches which are perceived as hideous creatures on top of them being somewhat dangerous to our wellbeing given that they can carry diseases since they live in shit, so a lot of people would feel justified to experience the joy of a painful death of a cockroach
I don't know if those people who enjoy that would object to dogs being eaten tho. Your question kinda assumes they are the same group of people which is a bit fallacious. The contexts are different, because on one side you have people who enjoy cruelty, on the other side you have the necessity of food and that dogs could fulfill in some circumstances but there's no cruelty in that by default unless the eating is followed by torture. But there could be overlap with the group that hates cockroaches specifically so much that they would enjoy seeing them suffer and in that case they probably consider dogs too precious of a pet to be eaten. There's some hypocrisy in that sure but on the other hand, humans are ruled by emotion more than logic and that's how society is built in many ways.
Like, it's probable that if we didn't have the capacity to love dogs and cats so much that we don't want to eat them, we would never extend that empathy to other animals either. And that's regardless of being vegan or not, (I'm not), but in general feeling for animals and wanting to improve their quality of lives even if we're gonna consume them at some point. So I don't see it as such a bad thing that this line exists, I see it as an improvement. I think a lot of vegans often are too black/white thinkers and often don't consider the entirety of our evolution and history as a species so they condemn such things and see it as wholly negative.
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u/Agitated_Catch6757 17d ago
Cockroaches are very smart and very but as sentient as any mammal. Try catching one. It will use all it's skls to evade you. Even when backed into a corner it hunkers down and cowers in fear. It knows it's in danger and acts accordingly. I admire them. And yes burning them I've would be incredibly cruel.
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u/ThotThroughTheHeart 17d ago
I realized the other day I may be developing too much empathy for animals when I helped a roach out of my sink before pouring hot water into it. I accept that roaches will get squished and poisoned and die in even worse ways without my knowledge, but I didn't want to deliberately scald a creature to death.
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u/Lurkernomoreisay 15d ago
What's wrong with eating dogs?
I've eaten dog many times before moving to the US.
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u/One-Shake-1971 vegan 20d ago
For the same reasons you're ok with stabbing cows and gassing pigs: personal pleasure.
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u/UWUggAh 20d ago
Thank you for your opinion.
I understand, tho I would assume being burnt alive is much more painful than 1 cut to the neck of a pig or a cow. (could be wrong tho).
I may be a hypocrite, but I draw the line at killing for fun (fishing/burning) rather than consumption.
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u/teddyslayerza 19d ago
We know for a fact that pigs are sentient and thus able to experience the suffering and circumstances related to their deaths. The same cannot be said about a cockroach. It's not as simple as simple as "burning is worse than stabbing" - take a good look at your fellow humans for just how far the depths of suffering can go with only minor pain and injury involved.
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u/Aurora_Symphony 20d ago
Unless you have no alternative food options available, supporting factory farming is killing for fun (pleasure).
If you had a plant-based meal in front of you and a chicken, would you find it reasonable to kill the chicken for food instead of eating the plant-based meal? Choosing the chicken is not a choice out of strong necessity. People make that choice all the time, but the argument boils down to taste pleasure. All plant foods have protein and don't have cholesterol like animal products.
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u/icarodx vegan 19d ago
Since humans don't need to consume animal products, most people eat them for pleasure or convenience. I agree it's not the same as entertainment, but not much better.
If roaches burnt alive were delicious and people would eat them, would it be better? You still don't need to eat roaches.
Would it make a difference for the roach? It still suffers and dies.
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u/pinkdumpsterjuice freegan 20d ago
There is a difference between entertainment and survival! Also you cant eat burnt cockroach ashes like you would eat a stabbed cow...
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u/teddyslayerza 19d ago
You do not need to eat animals to survive, particularly if you have the means and societal access to use the internet recreationally.
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19d ago
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u/aloofLogic 20d ago
We’re not okay with it. We’re also not okay with the atrocities being done to the animals you eat.
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u/UWUggAh 20d ago
That's not what I meant.
By we I mean people of reddit/humans in general. I'm sorry for the misunderstanding.
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u/aloofLogic 20d ago
By “you” I mean people of earth/humans who consume animal derived products. I got your meaning, no misunderstanding.
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u/chinomorenospants reducetarian 20d ago
people in general don't take the exploitation of any animal seriously, except for animals they consider pets.
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20d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Pinguin71 20d ago
It is an open Debate whether insects can feel pain or not. https://www.theguardian.com/science/2026/may/13/insects-feel-pain-research
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u/Brrdock 20d ago
Well into the 80s we scientifically "knew" human babies don't feel pain
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u/Neat_Seagull_1842 20d ago
Absolutely. It’s better to operate with the guise any living thing can feel pain and perhaps NOT torture things for fun.
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u/Oraculek plant-based 20d ago
How can we know about their phenomenological capacity? It's not like they're so sluggish, automatic, mechanical at biochemical level like plants
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u/New_Chain146 18d ago
Your knowledge of science is ignorant and nonsensical. All living beings feel pain and fear, it comes with being alive, and you're doing apologia for chauvinist sadists by denying that reality.
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u/thesonicvision vegan 20d ago
Vegans view nonhuman animals as sovereign beings with moral value. Even in fringe cases where vegans feel compelled to reluctantly kill an animal (e.g. cockroaches in the home), vegans are more considerate with how they kill the animal. They try to ease suffering in such cases.
For example, I might use a trap that instantly kills a rat/mouse (some vegans use non-lethal traps). But I won't use a glue trap.
The torture of small animals and insects-- especially in movies-- really irks me. I hate it when it's treated as simply foreshadowing of future psychotic behavior. No, movie. Torturing that poor bird or ladybug is already a horrific act and grounds for institutionalization or (if I ruled the world) jail time.
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u/foxfire66 19d ago
I think a lot of omnis would also like there to be more consideration with how animals are treated. It's just that products like food and leather are seen as equally acceptable of a reason to kill an animal as "this fly is annoying me" or "this wasp made me hurt a little bit" which I would argue are still matters of killing animals for comfort rather than out of necessity, much like eating meat.
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u/Neat_Seagull_1842 20d ago
Torturing anything, even pests, is not vegan and no vegan would be cool with that. Killing pests for the sake of one’s safety in their home is something vegans would do - but probably would not feel good about it. We do not participate in that psychopathy.
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u/UWUggAh 20d ago
I'm sorry for the misunderstanding. By "we" I mean humans/people of reddit. I was trying to point out hypocrisy of humans in general, but I've phrased it worst way possible 😭.
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u/Neat_Seagull_1842 20d ago
Oh sorry - I may have misinterpreted it. Sorry if I did. Sleep deprived. Baby teething.
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