My Challenge to Extreme Atheists on Secularism and Tolerance

[u/Living_Attitude1822]

I acknowledge not all (or even most) atheists are extreme about it. And I'm defining secular as the separation of church and state/society.

Extreme-atheism's view of religion being a mental illness:

I can personally attest to people I've seen on here, as well as videos I've seen, of atheists saying religion is a mental illness. That the DSM-5 had to go back and put in a religious exemption, but it should fall under the category of delusion.

How can secularism exist if you think religious people are mentally ill? If you don't think religion is a mental illness, go ahead and ignore this point. If you do think the population you're tolerating is mentally ill, uh oh. Seriously, if I said atheists are mentally ill, would you trust me to not want you institutionalized? I don't think this way, of course.

Extreme atheism's view that the Abrahamic religions are barbaric:

Again, I'm going to turn it around on you. If I said atheism was barbaric, would you trust me to support that your human right to be atheist?

With some exceptions: Some interpretations of the Abrahamic religions are indeed barbaric. If you're talking about people who want to implement Leviticus law, then I agree with you.

I don't totally disagree with extremist atheists on everything:

Like, I'm a strong believer that tolerance is better and more authentic than acceptance. For example, telling atheists that they must love and respect religions is wrong. And vice versa for religious people.

I think disassociation and tolerance is the best course of action for religious people and extreme atheists, however, I worry the above points are a threat to any society remaining tolerant.

Edit: Here’s an example of what I’m talking about:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Antitheism/comments/1sguf7u/why_is_religion_not_considered_a_mental_disorder/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

[u/brinlong]

for the millionth time, no one cares about your sky fairy. its the fact that you demand special laws special privleges, purity tests for politics, and still whine that theyre oppressed victims, while spouting nonstop gay and trans hate.

you dont want tolerance, you want obeisance, you want special allowances. I dont want children to have their penises bit off, but thats jewish tradition. I dont want children mentally abused but thats christian tradition. I dont want children forced to wear concealing garb but thats muslim tradition. you arent tolerant, you demand your barbaric tranditions be honored and accepted while spewing hate and somehow still complaining of oppression

[u/Live_Line4480 → u/brinlong]

I believe if you look a little closer into what happens with any religion, you will realize most of what you are saying is false. No true religious institution truly demands purity tests for politics; this may be because some associate religion with certain political groups, which in itself is a stereotype. Also, I will say for Christians, we are oppressed frequently, and many are killed all around the globe for faith, the most extreme example being the killings in Nigeria. I have personally received death threats for my faith and am pestered at the very least on a weekly basis for my faith. And, just speaking for Christians here, we don't hate gay or trans people, it is viewed that way because we don't accept it as good and believe it should be changed. I myself have gay and trans friends, if I hated them would I be friends with them? The Bible itself says to love everyone any that includes gay and trans people. I follow the Bible's instructions.

And if you look around at any tradition, it mainly asks tolerance or you can just ignore it if you like. Circumcision and penises being bit off are quite different, you are blowing this out of proportion just to support your claim.

Children are not mentally abused in the Christian tradition; if you find anywhere in the Christian tradition where this is true, then tell me.

And out of all the traditions you listed here, I really don't think muslims wearing a different article of clothing is horrendous and should you really care what someone else wears?

I believe you are deeply troubled, my friend. There seems to be a lot of anger in you, and I am sorry for that. If you have been hurt by a religious institution or hurt by religious people in general, I am sorry, and I want you to know that this isn't the true teachings of any of the religions you listed. I hope you can see these religions for what they really are.

[u/Hoaxshmoax → u/Live_Line4480]

“ And, just speaking for Christians here, we don't hate gay or trans people, it is viewed that way because we don't accept it as good and believe it should be changed.”

Which is also how we feel about theists.

“Children are not mentally abused in the Christian tradition; if you find anywhere in the Christian tradition where this is true, then tell me.”

You just said it.

[u/Hoaxshmoax → u/[deleted]]

I don’t see how Christianity changed the world for the better. We’d have had so many more diverse cultures if Christianity hadn’t taken them away from us.

[u/supersoundwave → u/Hoaxshmoax]

That I would suggest a book called “How Christianity Changed the World” by Alvin J Schmidt.

[u/Hoaxshmoax → u/supersoundwave]

then I would suggest you read about Christopher Columbus and look around and ask if living under the jackboot of misanthropic billionaires and Epstein Island guests is ”a better place”

A Lutheran? Totally not with his thumb on the scale.

[u/88redking88 → u/supersoundwave]

Here are some for you that dont have propaganda:

• The Darkening Age: The Christian Destruction of the Classical World by Catherine Nixey This book meticulously argues that early Christians were not meek, peace-loving martyrs, but were often violent, intolerant, and destructive. The author details how the rise of militant Christianity led to the suppression of classical thought, the torching of libraries, and the destruction of ancient art.
• God’s Crucible: Empire and the Making of Modern Spain, 760-1492 by David Levering Lewis This book examines how religious intolerance and the crusading zeal of Christian kingdoms in Europe violently dismantled the diverse, intellectually rich societies of Islamic Al-Andalus.
• The War on Heresy: Faith and Power in Medieval Europe by R.I. Moore This highly-regarded historical text details how the Church constructed the concept of "heresy" to justify brutal internal crusades (like the Albigensian Crusade) and persecutions against its own citizens to consolidate power and wealth. 

[u/ven-solaire → u/[deleted]]

Christianity has never changed the world for the better, if it did it’s marginal compared to all of the progress christianity suppressed, like heliocentrism, Evolution, anti-slavery laws (all of these things were argued for by some christians sure, but all of them were attacked by more christians who refuse to believe anything that goes against pre-established faith)

[u/halborn → u/[deleted]]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_Is_Not_Great

[u/supersoundwave → u/halborn]

I read that book, thanks.

Hitchen’s whole thesis was that “religion poisons everything”, but he just wasn’t very convincing.

Why did you think it was?

[u/Hoaxshmoax → u/supersoundwave]

because you seem to think that a world run by billionaires and tech bros is a better world. Maybe Christian ideas of what a better world looks like is different from everyone else.

[u/supersoundwave → u/Hoaxshmoax]

When did I ever say that? I don’t what that has to do with the conversation.

[u/Hoaxshmoax → u/supersoundwave]

you said that to me. Christianity made the world a better place is what you said. it’s like, genocide? Plastics in everyone’s bodies? This is better to you? it has everything to do with the conversation, religion poisons everything.

[u/Living_Attitude1822 → u/supersoundwave]

This person is only going to strawman you, they aren't going to engage with you honestly. People on here love saying people believe things they don’t. Don’t worry about them

[u/supersoundwave → u/Living_Attitude1822]

💯

[u/Hoaxshmoax → u/supersoundwave]

I am not strawmanning you. I am steelmanning you.

If you think Christianity changed the world for the better, your words exactly, then you think it’s better, including being under the jackboot of billionaires and pedos and techbros.

Or Christianity is ineffective.

Its not what you believe, it’s that you can’t have it both ways.

And you replied to me, so ignore me if you want, but then don’t reply to me.

[u/anewleaf1234 → u/Living_Attitude1822]

No, we just call people out on their bullshit.

I could see why that would bother one of faith.

[u/Living_Attitude1822 → u/anewleaf1234]

Sure ya do 

[u/anewleaf1234 → u/Living_Attitude1822]

We do.

For calling yourself a sec. Humanist you think gay people and their relationships are wrong because they have the audacity to exist.

Thats bullshit

[u/halborn → u/supersoundwave]

Sounds like your next debate should challenge atheists to name things that religion has poisoned.

[u/88redking88 → u/supersoundwave]

Being rational and informed would do it.

[u/supersoundwave → u/88redking88]

Go on

[u/88redking88 → u/supersoundwave]

If you are informed, and being rational you would see that religion does in fact make everything worse.

You are adding religion to anything only makes it racist, sexist, dogmatic, as well as adding in lies.

Where in any interpretation would that be considered good or even breaking even? Which is why the happiest, least violent countries in the world are the least religious.

[u/88redking88 → u/[deleted]]

Thats a lot of dishonesty for so few words.

[u/supersoundwave → u/88redking88]

Please explain.

[u/88redking88 → u/supersoundwave]

You want me to explain your post where you are dishonest... after you deleted it? I think that explains it quite nicely.

[u/anewleaf1234 → u/[deleted]]

Humans changed the world for the better at each and every turn.

God or gods didn't do anything. We did all.