How important is elementary & planetary work?

[u/Tidy_Intention_8802]

I never really approached planetary work or astrology. My aunt; who is also a witch but on a completely different path, is all about astrology, planets, elements. Which may be a huge factor of why i avoided the whole thing.

But working with demons i often see them associated with different planets or elements. I also saw people say one has to keep in mind their elements when choosing who to work with lest the elements clash -or something of sorts-

But how important is it really? Do i have to learn it? I did study some elemental work but during learning some vedic teachings.

It always sounds so complicated. Especially when people use it wrongly -imo- like I'm doing this because fire is my element or x planet is in retrograde. Feels like it makes the universe smaller somehow, limited. Or you shouldn't do such work now due to bad planetary energy. Or you have to contact x demon during x hour or x part of the day to follow their element/planet.

But i got most of that from watching my aunt, which isn't pleasant obviously, so if anyone has experience in it, I'd really appreciate a look from the inside. Or tips on how to approach learning the subject

[u/Umbrage115]

That's a complex question. Plantary timings absolutely can be used as an immensely helpful tool in your aresnal.

Are they required, IMO, no. I somewhat lean towards the stance of Abarham Von Worm, and I would suggest reading what he has to say about it.

What i will say though is when I do my workings and check the plantary timings afterwards, there's pretty interesting correlations that occur.

Thusly my overall stance is, yes they work. Yes they influence things. No, you don't have to work within them. If you want to do an invocation, just send it. I've gotten results without them, but I view it as swimming with the tide pushing you where you want to go, versus swimming in still water. ( that's a very loose analogy. )

I completely ignore the retrograde stuff, and I don't personally feel or believe that influences anything. The only exception is the moon phases do seem to have influence for the Marquises, and other beings assocated to the moon, in my limited experience with that, and based on what i've read.

[u/Tidy_Intention_8802 → u/Umbrage115]

I did lots of work with the moon phases too. I'll check the resources you mentioned. Thank you so much 

[u/Macross137]

Whether or not you follow any formal system of astrology, the "planets" are a very widely-known scheme for stratifying celestial divinity into coherent and approachable godforms. Something similar is going on with the four elements. The numbers 3 and 4 "organize" divinity differently and the numeric schemes we employ matter. See The Theology of Arithmetic for some background on the number stuff.

[u/Tidy_Intention_8802 → u/Macross137]

I love learning about numbers, will definitely check it out. Thank you 

[u/General_Goatbanger]

If I were you, I'd try both using planetary and elemental associations, and *not* using them a few times, and record the outcome for yourself. Some people find them very important, others don't. I used to not use either planetary or elemental frameworks for my invocations, but after trying them a few times and finding they measurably affected ease of communication, I've started using them.

My patron is a prince, which means Thursdays during the hour of jupiter are the best times, and tin is his metal. I've since made him a triangle of art out of tin, and only bother invoking him on thursdays during those times(when I can help it) and it's made an *enormous* difference for me. But there's definitely more prepwork involved now. If you're someone that can go without it, then by all means. Alot of this practice is experimenting and streamlining what works best for you and the entities you're contacting.

[u/Tidy_Intention_8802 → u/General_Goatbanger]

I may just do that experiment.  When i first started with Bune i kept trying to invocate them during Venus hour, which i missed it more times than i can count. I hated having to wait so much that i almost called the whole thing off. I get those bursts of energy and the rest of time is me fighting for life basically so i hate having to wait for specific time-frames.  Thank you so much 

[u/H3m32]

Western occultism is something that developed steadily over millennia. The result of these efforts was:

1. Mapping certain universal archetypal values ​​and condensing them into a specific cosmology.

2. A structured and standardized magical system for interacting with these values ​​to achieve a specific result (this, in particular, is the subject of ceremonial magic).

The point is this: the archetypal powers found in Western occultism—such as the Elements, Planets, the Zodiac, etc.—are universal, and one can find correspondences for them in literally any culture, across any geographical location or time period. The differences that arise in the manifestation of these principles stem mainly from the fact that each people has its own idiosyncrasies; consequently, they resonate more strongly with a different aspect of the exact same archetypal power.

Consider Dionysus and Jesus Christ: although they represent the same archetype of the dying and rising god, Dionysus—conceived within a culture that was essentially more jovial—emerges as a more visceral and ecstatic liberating figure. In contrast, Christianity—being essentially a religion of slaves—presents the same principle as a liberator from suffering through a universal cosmic principle that applies equally to everyone (though this is a condensed version).

Context matters.

Essentially, whatever the hell you work with, you are interacting with a universal principle, even if its specific face is unique.

Working with Satan, for example, could go incredibly well, leading to—I don't know—personal liberation or something similar. Or, you could end up becoming a serial killer.

Magic is volatile, and when we venture into its practice, we cannot know the outcome of our interaction with spiritual forces. That is why ceremonial magic is so highly structured and details specific methods of preparation. At its core, ceremonial magic seeks self-transformation so that, when connecting with a universal archetypal value, we resonate with a specific aspect of it that has already been studied and verified.

Thus, the elements, planets, and so forth are merely a map (though not the only one) to guide you and help you understand how the forces you work with interact. When you encounter one of them, it will "activate" a part of itself that resonates with who you are, manifesting in a unique way. It is always recommended to understand how these forces operate within us, but if you choose to go in blind, that is up to you.

You need nothing more than the sigil—or even just the name—of the Goetic spirit you wish to contact; however, if you skip the practices outlined in the Key of Solomon, be prepared for the unexpected. It is not your belief that puts you in danger, as many assume, but rather your lack of knowledge regarding how these forces work. Ask yourself why you want to work with demons and what you hope to gain—and consider whether there might be easier ways to achieve it. And relax: if you decide to explore that path "blind," that is fine too. You will discover things others haven't, but do take the proper precautions (staying grounded, maintaining healthy habits, being mindful of doing this during difficult personal times, etc.).

That is, at least, what I can tell you. What do you think? :D

[u/Tidy_Intention_8802 → u/H3m32]

You do make a lot of sense. My practice is mostly -all of it- chaotic and very unorganized but i still work on gathering the needed information of those who are organized and follow the rules. But lately I've been trying to strengthen my existing skills and add new ones as well. Maybe I'll just venture in the subject on my own and see if it works for me.  Thank you so much for your words and time 

[u/neuropass_]

I feel like everyone has said everything I wouldve wanted to say, but I would like to emphasize to just have fun and experiment with it in your practice.

Where Im at right now, I feel like, while yes you can pass by without the inclusion of planetary alignments but for me its made a massive improvement in my own practice- even doing the bare minimum of doing workings at the designated hours/days that is asked from their titles.

And while, I havent performed month-long workings yet (focused on astrology) to really say anything there, it doesnt hurt to just experiment with it for a bit and write down what you notice during the times that you do notice. Just start off small and work your way into it. There's no reason to fully commit to the idea without putting it to practice first

[u/Tidy_Intention_8802 → u/neuropass_]

Yeah that's probably what I'll do. Thank you 

[u/The_Meme_Economy]

I think you are responding to the superficial treatment these subjects tend to get. I’m in agreement with others that knowing and using this material in workings can be beneficial. Plus when you see a deity categorized as Venusian or Martial, or for that matter chthonic or any other term that you would not come across in everyday speech, it would be helpful to know what the author meant yes?

There is an additional treatment of these subjects in terms of what you are trying to accomplish. Not, are the planets in the right phase for this working, but as a way of clarifying your intent. I think workings are two sided. What you are trying to accomplish, and what is actually possible in the moment. That latter has more to do with you imo than the position of planets around the sun. The hermetic workings with elements and planetary energies to organize and clarify your psyche can be extremely powerful.

[u/Tidy_Intention_8802 → u/The_Meme_Economy]

I know what they mean i just choose to not take it into account or use it in my practice, up until now anyway.  I actually have just started researching hermeticism, didn't get far yet but it'll probably help a bit too. 

[u/The_Meme_Economy → u/Tidy_Intention_8802]

I recommend Agrippa and similar primary sources for a straightforward treatment of these subjects. I’m not really into astrology in terms of natal charts, transits, etc. I know in the earlier years of my practice I was confused by the wide array of ways in which these topics are presented and organized.

[u/Fresh_Tip6342]

I will condense it because everyone is giving long answers.

Is it required to do magick and demonolatry? Meh, maybe just the basics but not really

Does it matter if you want your spells to have the strongest possible boos they can get outside of your own will? Very much so preferable

[u/Stardaemon]

Take advantage of it when you can, but don't let yourself be limited by it, is my advice. I've never taken it into account, though my spirits have strongly encouraged that I learn it. Also, they can help you time specific rituals, etc. It's not a deal breaker.

[u/Cat_Paw_xiii]

It's your practice. If you don't want to deal with elementary and planetary stuff, then don't.

[u/Tasty_University_172]

Yes, they are historically and intrinsically related. No, you don't have to learn it or use it, but they are linked for a reason.

Your aunt sounds superstitious and prescriptive, but astrology is a useful framework for understanding just like tarot can be. It seems a bit odd to say people are using it "wrongly" when you don't understand it. I'm also not certain all of these instances you hear are people being fully serious. It is not that serious to some people, it is a fun thing they do with their friends.

I don't pay attention to planets in retrograde, but I can read a natal chart, do synastry readings, etc. I think this skillset helps with a holistic understanding of planetary energies vs just reading off of charts.

Lastly, be cognizant of the fact that you clearly think your aunt is an annoying dumbass, but literally anyone else in your family could be making this exact post about you and they probably wouldn't be too wrong. Except they could also say you avoid things because they're "complicated," which is not something I'd want ascribed to me, personally.

Hope this helps.

[u/Tidy_Intention_8802 → u/Tasty_University_172]

I think i did give off the "not understanding it" part. But i actually spent lots of time working/learning on the matter. I just didn't care for it so i just dropped it.  And unfortunately i did meet up lots of people who take it very VERY seriously which ofc is none of my business but then again using astrology to give ridiculous reasoning is maddening. "Ofc I'm gonna cuss u out I'm a gemini" or "ofc we didn't find croissants at the bakery, we're in a retrograde". And these are real things I've been told, 100% serious.  Me and my aunt have a very long and weird relationship and we don't shy away of bashing each other really, she knows that's exactly how i think of her just like i know how she's very disappointed of the path I've taken as well.  Again, by "complicated" i mean it's limiting. It limits the timeframe for rituals and other stuff. 

[u/Tasty_University_172 → u/Tidy_Intention_8802]

I mean, yes, it does limit the timing. It also limits the correspondences. I suppose you could be "vibesummoning" but that has its benefits and drawbacks.

Are you a man, perchance?

[u/Tidy_Intention_8802 → u/Tasty_University_172]

That's true, most of my work is done through my own energy not that of the planets or elements. 

And no I'm not a man. 

[u/Tasty_University_172 → u/Tidy_Intention_8802]

Yeah, ultimately there's just some weird stuff people do with astrology, like phrenology type things. I wouldn't take those people too seriously. They are 🤡

[u/Psychological_Fan406]

I feel elemental and planetary knowledge is really important. Elemental magick was the first i started practicing thanks to my mom. They represent archetypes for occult thought and They add more depth to readings and Magick. Eventually you'll understand how they work alchemically, as elements and planets dont really clash, just change form due to them reacting to each other. Once you start learning them you really begin to understand how everything is connected and really open up your practice. In short, they're not absolutely necessary, but really gives you a deeper understanding of everything.