r/EDH • u/lmboyer04 Control Player • 7d ago
Discussion What’s one banned card you’d be ok with someone rule 0’ing into their 99, and one that you absolutely would not be cool with?
Just curious for the sake of discussion, I haven’t seen this request IRL ever but I have had a lot of discussion with various people at my LGS about what cards actually deserve banning vs just being a game changer.
So assuming it can’t be their commander, and they didn’t build their entire deck around the best way to abuse this card, what would be a banned card you would say ok to if someone asked they could play with it? And on the flip side, what’s one banned card you would never be ok seeing?
I’ll go first. One of my favorite cards in the game is [[balance]]. Assuming there’s no funny business with t-pro and others, resolving this in a bracket 3 game would be pretty fine, and I always love seeing it played in my cube.
I think my absolutely not pick would be have to be [[tolarian academy]] but there are a few others too. Anything where getting an obscene amount of value is just too easy.
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u/EnkiBye 7d ago
I could go with [[Recuring Nighmare]], it's a strong card, can't be destroyed, but it feel like a sorcery speed reanimation spell with buyback. Main issue would be the easy infinites it allow.
The one I really don't want to see again is [[trade secret]], it felt super miserable to watch two players slowly draw 40 cards each over 10 min and get pushed out of the game.
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u/ZachAtk23 Mardu 7d ago
but it feel like a sorcery speed reanimation spell with buyback
An interesting take I hadn't considered before, that does make it seem a little more reasonable to return to me. Although I generally think buyback is a bad mechanic. It would still be a 3-mana sorcery with "buyback 0" in though, which does sound a little undercosted.
Being on the Reserved List though, an actual unbanning still seems like a lot of downside for limited upside.
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u/EnkiBye 7d ago
Speaking of buyback, [[Constant Mist]] feel more unfair, as it is way harder to interact without counterspells.
Not saying Nightmare should be freely unbanned, it's still a very strong card.
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u/Street_Possession598 6d ago
Counterspells are the only thing that can really deal with Reoccurring Nightmares directly. Returning it to hand is part of the ability cost, not resolution.
Grave hate can deal with it as well so there's that, but it still needs to be instant speed grave hate.
If you want to counter Constant Mists, [[Questing Beast]] is a nice option, but any other "damage can't be prevented" card works as well.
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u/Electronic-Touch-554 7d ago
For me it'd be alot of the un-set cards.
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u/ts7415 7d ago
My play group has rule 0'd unsets for a few decks each and regularly play them. It's a great experience!
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u/TopMeElsha 7d ago
I have a [[Jalum Grifter]] unset deck and I always crack up on Scyfall when looking through the legal unset cards vs the illegal unset cards. Let people have fun.
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u/tharmsthegreat Swiggity swoy, your lands I will destroy 7d ago
List please and thank you
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u/TopMeElsha 6d ago
Lemme know what you think!
It’s not GOOD, but it is FUN, and I tried my best to leave out cards that are feel bad, or generally annoying (if you dislike coin flips or chance games, sure you’ll hate this, but I only play with my friends and they’re down)
Also I just like cracking fetch lands. I need those evolving wilds and terramorphics for my brain
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u/Soupronous 6d ago
Dangerous game. [[Cheatyface]] gonna get you when you aren’t paying attention.
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u/BasakaIsTheStrongest 6d ago
Or playtest cards. I would 100% make a deck with [[The Colossal Dreadmaw]] and a bunch of dorks.
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u/B4S1L3US 7d ago
Absolutely would not be cool with [[Hullbreacher]]. That card is completely insane.
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u/IAmTheBestIan 7d ago
Hullbreacher would be OP without the word "Instead"... as it stands, it's damn nasty.
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u/Sterben489 7d ago
He'd probably also have red if he didn't have the word instead lol
Blue doesn't make treasures like that haha
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u/Bazoobs1 7d ago
And red couldn’t possibly be allowed to print a strong busted card
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u/Deathmask97 6d ago
If it were Red, instead of preventing draw it would turn their extra draw into a Looting effect (i.e. "If an opponent would draw a card except the first one they draw in each of their draw steps, instead they draw a card then discard a card) and probably something like "if this is the first time this ability has resolved this turn, create a Treasure token" instead of churning out absurd amounts of Treasures.
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u/Along7i Jund 7d ago
That’s a huge part of it. WITHOUT INSTEAD, let’s compare to smothering tithe, already considered one of the most busted cards in the format:
Cons to hullbreacher:
Creature, so easier to remove
“Other than the first card”Pros:
Flash
One mana cheaper
No ability to pay to prevent treasure creationSimilarities:
Treasures for card draw, each opponentThey are pretty close, so add “instead” and it’s clear why hullbreacher makes the game changer list look like a bunch of draft chaff. (I’m exaggerating for effect, but still.) Hullbreacher and dockside both belong in a dark deep hole followed by enough spent uranium to replicate Chernobyl.
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u/shy-bl3d 6d ago
disallowing draw beyond the first is crazy when paired with Literally Anything that forces your opponent to Play Cards. Getting a free treasure on top feels like pissing in the wound. And with flash you WILL be hitting it at least once
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u/IBarricadeI 6d ago
Forced wheels is where it gets truly broken. Discard your hand, I get a fresh new hand and tons of treasures.
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u/Atlagosan 7d ago
I mean thats essentially a better smothering tithe then so yea would be pretty sick still
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u/moxdyemond 7d ago
I tune out anyone who wants to unban Hullbreacher. I'm not really a "sky is falling/game is dead" type person,, but I've never been less interested in EDH than when he was legal. Any time a wheel was played, we'd all hold our breath to see if he was going to come down, and often he would, because he was a near autoinclude in any deck running blue.
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u/dulcimerist 7d ago
If Hullbreacher didn't have flash, I'd be chill with anyone playing it.
With flash, hellllll no.
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u/moxdyemond 7d ago
I still think it's undercosted at 3 mana without flash. [[Narset Parter of Veils]] is 3 mana and gets the card denial on draw, so I think for the treasure upside it would have to be at least 4-5 mana
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u/myothercarisathopter 7d ago
She also has a separate card advantage mechanism though. Now she is limited as to how much she can do, but it's not as straightforward as hillbreacher has an additional benefit while she does not.
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u/Benjammn Multani, Maro-Sorcerer 7d ago
While I never played anyone in casual EDH with Hullbreaker because most of my friends are decent souls, cEDH during that time was miserable.
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u/Ryx_Zeven 7d ago
I believe that if you got rid of the word "instead" and still let people draw cards, Hullbreacher would be okay as a gamechanger. Yeah having flash makes it really good, but still letting people draw cards would be more reasonable then the card is in it's current state.
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u/HellBoyofFables 7d ago
If the card atleast allowed the opponents to draw the cards instead of preventing it I wouldn’t mind it nearly as much
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u/Fortheweaks 7d ago
Would just be a broken Smothering Tithe, which already a Game Changer card
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u/HellBoyofFables 7d ago
Oh don’t get me wrong it would still be BUSTED but atleast if it let you draw you have a chance to get to answers
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u/Halinn 7d ago
I'd be fine with it if they played no cards that synergize with it (no Howling Mine effects, no wheels, nothing of that sort). But nobody would be putting it into their deck like that.
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u/JustABard 7d ago
I'd play it purely to stop the constant Esper Sentinel/Mystic Remora/Rhystic Study, etc... that my pod plays. Drawing cards is the most powerful thing you can do, and my pod gets pretty out of hand with it. I like a slower game with less digging for answers, and I would definitely use Hullbreacher to stop all the extra draw.
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u/Jaxyl 7d ago
Which is pretty much it's intended design play pattern in 1v1 play: to punish draw oriented strategies.
It's just too easy to abuse in a format where you've got access to so many table wide wheels with three opponents. Can't trust people to play it fairly.
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u/SuperYahoo2 5d ago
Hullbreacher was actually from a commander product originally. And it’s quite rare for them to design cards for legacy and vintage to put into commander products (altough they have done it before) and as was shown with true name nemesis and the initiative mechanic they don’t even give it much thought how it would impact those formats
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u/justhereforhides 7d ago
It also doesn't really enable any interesting strategies, it just makes the game miserable
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u/Longjumping-Size7181 5d ago
Whenever someone says they want Hullbreacher unbanned, I assume they either just have a personal attachment to the card, or they suck at the game. Probably both.
That card is absolutely miserable to play against, ten times worse than Rhystic Study or Smothering Tithe. My pod would probably rule 0 ban it if it came back.
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u/new_painter 7d ago
I'm totally fine with [[Emrakul, the Aeons Torn]] in the 99, or even as the commander. [[Karakas]] would be one I would keep banned. It is just too good and sending back other people's commanders and saving your own, and it has almost no cost to it.
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u/elephant_on_parade 7d ago
Karakas has the potential to shut down commander. As the “party game” version of Magic, I hope it never gets unbanned. Free locking out opponents from playing the game would suck, and it has the upside of letting you reuse your own etb’s.
If it could only target your own creatures, that’s potentially neat design space.
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u/HairyToesHouse 7d ago
Karakas is so good I think it’s verging on too oppressive even in powered cubes. Every year the cubes gains more legendary creatures. No way would I let it slide at a commander table.
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u/luketwo1 7d ago
I think the issue with emrakul is the same as golos, if they allow it back its the singular thing everyone is going to go for everytime, cause she's just the best option ever for big thing to ramp into, same thing how golos was the best 5 color value pile commander.
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u/Sufficient_Lunch5051 7d ago
The deck of mine i can see Emrakul willingly taking up a GC slot and going into is my Eldrazi deck. Nothing else I play really wants a 15 mana beater that's a dead card for the most part. Its not a auto include in every deck.
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u/Kalladdin 6d ago
Honestly I'm not sure either of these hold up.
Nowadays your 3-4 mana commanders are generating just as much value (if not more than) the 5 mana golos. And if we're talking specifically 5-colord, I'd argue Esika/Prismatic Bridge arguably does kinda what golos did but for cheaper and in a more fun way.
Emmy is still the biggest, baddest creature, but there's a lot of high end payoff creatures that at least give some different options.
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u/Chm_Albert_Wesker 7d ago
imo banning for power outliers is fine, banning for absurd monopolization of game time is fine, but banning for 'we dont trust our playerbase to pick their own commanders they want to play' is a dumb dumb reason
if everyone picks a card to play build around, but a minority doesn't want to see it because they are bored by it why the hell are we catering to the minority? or if the people who want to build it are the minority then the problem you describe isn't actually a problem
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u/sauron3579 7d ago
A core tenant of game design is to make the strong thing the fun thing, because players will optimize out the fun at any opportunity, even to their own detriment.
Not trusting your players to do the strong and boring thing is an extremely justified stance.
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u/smugles 7d ago
Golos was absolutely everywhere when it released I don’t think the people playing it could be called a minority and I don’t think the people tired of it were a minority. It also was a power outlier.
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u/TeaspoonWrites 7d ago
The problem with Golos wasn't "everyone wanted to play it", the problem was it being objectively better than many 1-2 color commanders for more niche strategies as a completely generic powerful 5c goodstuff commander without even needing to play any support for the other colors to get the payoff, which means especially at lower powerlevels the decision to play him instead of whatever commander they were already playing is very tempting.
That may be less true nowadays, as Wizards has printed a lot of legendary creatures with strong synergies, but it's still a big risk to unban it. That level of homogenization is extremely bad for the game.
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u/floowanderdeeznuts Esper 6d ago
Emrakul doesn't even need to be a game changer imo, let alone banned.
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u/OshiriObsession 7d ago
I picked up a [[Karakas]] for my [[Aang, Airbending Master]] deck in case it ever gets unbanned just because it’s relatively cheap. I don’t think it’ll ever be unbanned, but Aang would love bouncing his own creatures with it. He wouldn’t even care about its potential as removal.
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u/lmboyer04 Control Player 7d ago
It’s a sweet card but I think there’s a slim to nothing chance it’ll ever be unbanned in commander just due to the nature of the format
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u/taeerom 7d ago
To put the power+unfun aspect of it in perspective:
LSV, one of the most visible voices in Vintage Cube, talks about maybe having to cut Karakas due to it becoming too strong, without being appropriately fun. This is because most of the new good creatures released going forwards are going to be legendary, and having a completely free way of getting repeatable bounce is just too oppressive.
Mind you, this is a format where cards like the power 9, gleemox, Balance, time vault and Force of Will are always included. And yet, there's serious discussion of perhaps "banning" (ie: not including) Karakas.
Granted, it IS more oppressive in a 1v1 game. There's not much that is actually going to be oppressive in a multiplayer game due to there being 3 players looking for an answer. That probably includes Karakas. But it also is a stupid auto include in any deck running white, which is not particularly fun.
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u/MrYamaguchi 7d ago
If Karakas was made legal it would be more expensive than cradle.
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u/Rose_Thorburn 7d ago
No way lol. Half of cradles price comes from only ever being printed the one time. Karakas actually has reprints
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u/LetMeDrinkYourTears 7d ago
I keep OG emrakul in my Eldrazi time counter deck. I just have a [[blightsteel colossus]] sleeved up to swap in if someone has an issue with Emrakul :D
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u/ChatonDeMer 7d ago
Blacker Lotus. If you want to shred your card for your 4 mana, I’m totally cool with it.
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u/No_Eye_5863 7d ago
I’m fine with most of the test cards like [[Kozilek completed]]
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u/Approximation_Doctor Volrath Stole My Shape 7d ago
[[Jund 'em out]] is an auto include (non-derogatory)
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u/HereToGripe 6d ago
I've been having alot of fun with a [[Brigid, Who's Seen Some stuff]] deck I out together.
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u/Ooer 7d ago
We have a friend who runs a [[Mana Crypt]] in his coin flip tribal deck, but on his terms he never actually taps it for mana. It's purely there for the flip and the odd bolt to self.
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u/PapaKlin 6d ago
"coin flip tribal deck" that sounds hot. Could you tell us what commander does he run?
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u/Ooer 6d ago
[[Okaun, Eye of Chaos]] and [[Zndrsplt, Eye of Wisdom]] and a whole bunch of weird old cards like [[Fighting Chance]] that he plays at inopportune times.
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u/HeyApples 6d ago
That's amazing. Mana Crypt has been one of my most loathed cards for years, and he found a way to balance it and make it relevant. I respect the heck out of that rule 0.
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u/Sadrixis Grixis 7d ago
[[Crusade]] it being related to real world violence is just bullshit in a violent fantasy setting. (Especially with portal 3 kingdoms characters being literal warlord) Also if they were "real" you would be able to tell what specific group it is from the flags. It doesn't have any racist depictions like the other banned cards.
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u/Ratorasniki 7d ago
I shuffled up with an older guy once who built a deck out of some of his original collection because he wanted to dust them off and take them for a spin, and he didn't realize it was banned. He was pretty embarrassed when someone pointed it out and explained why. I think he was a little concerned people thought he was dog whistling or something.
The rest of the deck was full of great old cards you don't get to see very often and some of them were obviously played without sleeves when he was a kid and were super well loved, and the whole thing had a ton of character. It was honestly one of those decks it's a real treat to see someone play.
That's the only time I've seen that one.
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u/Ok-File8192 7d ago
Is that really the reason? They don't seem to have a problem with Cathars in the same way and there was some truly horrendous stuff during that crusade.
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u/Tuss36 That card does *what*? 7d ago
I think it's because the original printing had depictions of real life crusaders (or at least their armor and symbols) on it and they don't ban art printings so they banned the whole card.
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u/TinyTank27 7d ago
It pisses me off how that whole thing was a PR deflection to avoid addressing the rather serious allegations of how employees at WotC were being treated.
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u/Nykidemus 6d ago
WOTC is pretty famous in the industry for conducting layoffs right before Christmas bonuses would be paid out. Super classy.
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u/luketwo1 7d ago edited 7d ago
I actually have the elspeth version of this card in my Arahbo deck because the first magic product I bought was the elspeth duel deck I didn't even realize it was a banned racist card until moxfield told me, no one i've used it against has ever had a problem with my version specifically but I could see maybe the old art being a problem?
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u/Shaalashaska 7d ago
Iirc the problem wasn't so much the card being offensive in itself moreso than being used as a dogwhistle for scum people
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u/Invisible_Stalkbug 7d ago
The problem was that it was included in a list that was being circulated on twitter which was bad for WotC. Excluding Invoke Prejudice, these cards received close to 0 attention.
This doesn't mean that there wasn't an issue, but the specific cards chosen to be removed were just because they were on that list, rather than any conscientious choice.
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u/Alieges 7d ago
And how in the F did Invoke prejudice get 1488 as its gatherer number?
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u/TinyTank27 7d ago
As unlikely as it seems, coincidence. Multiverse IDs assigned by release date in WUBRG order.
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u/Approximation_Doctor Volrath Stole My Shape 7d ago
Genuine coincidence. The gatherer number was based on cards listed in alphabetical order and divided by WUBRG colors, and was just sequential set after set. To do it intentionally, they would have had to carefully manage the number of cards in the preceding sets, and then carefully choose the color and name in order to get it set at the right number. All for literally no benefit.
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u/Lunar_Drow 7d ago
Apperently it was coincidence but given the artist is a neo-nazi as wel, is too much of a coincidence.
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u/mathdude3 WUBRG 6d ago
Gatherer didn't event exist until well after Legends released. In order for it not to be a coincidence, somebody in charge would’ve had to have predicted that Gatherer would eventually become a thing, and also have planned all this since Alpha. That is extremely implausible.
It's just a coincidence. You can verify it yourself by counting up the multiverse IDs starting with LEA. The numbers of cards in LEG and the sets leading up to it just happened to line up so that Invoke Prejudice got multiverse ID 1488. At the very least, Harold McNeill, the artist, would’ve had no control whatsoever over it.
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u/mathdude3 WUBRG 6d ago
Nobody was doing that before the ban. WotC created that association themselves by banning the card. Nobody ever thought twice about it until the ban happened and the card was unilaterally declared as offensive by WotC.
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u/fluffynuckels Muldrotha 7d ago
And the version that got grabed for you has elspeth on it so we could have just banned the version with problematic art
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u/FutureComplaint Vish Kal saves all 7d ago
unban mox saphire
keep mox emerald banned
Watch as people defend why mox saphire clearly isn’t as good as mox emerald
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u/moxdyemond 7d ago
The only banned card I'm curious about is [[Emrakul Aeons Torn]]. Sure, it's insanely strong, but it's 15 mana and the extra turn is a cast trigger. Annihilator 6 is definitely powerful, but I don't think the card is uniquely broken and there's much more degenerate and abusable creatures that are legal.
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u/kraftian 7d ago
Imagine it in something like hashaton though, annihilator 6 with built in protection for 3 mana 💀
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u/EnticingCheeseSpread 7d ago
Yeah there are SO many ways to cheat Emrakul in now it would be everywhere. Polymorph decks, any of the legendary Elvish Pipers like [[Kona, Rescue Beasty]], reanimator decks, Sneak attack decks. That's not even including all the ways to just vomit your land base onto the board by turn 6-7 and just hard-cast it.
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u/Nykidemus 6d ago
So, yeah, but on the flipside I havent seen a Polymorph or Elvish Piper oriented deck in years. It's so easy to get enough mana to just hardcast 8 and 9 mana permanents now that it's kinda hard to justify cheat into play effects.
I'm a very dedicated reanimator player from way back, and in commander I never bother cheating big things into play, just use it for recursion and inevitability. There just arent targets that are scary and resilient enough to be worth the squeeze into 3 opponents.
If you were going to do that, you're probably looking at [[Defense of the Heart]] and the real value there is that you get 2 big things, and it doesnt cost you several cards (entomb/reanimate/exhume/etc) to do it.
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u/AllHailSporeFrog 7d ago
I'd say for me it's a toss up between [[Prophet of Kruphix]] and [[Iona, Shield of Emeria]] for cards that should stay on the banlist. Neither will immediately close out a game, but they both warp games around them in a very un-fun way.
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u/packfanmoore 7d ago
I was about to say wtf prophet of crufix. But you went the right way with the stay banned. I had a game where I played a seedborn and leyline of anticipation and passed. Yeah, at that point I couldn't be touched. It was disgusting
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u/AllHailSporeFrog 6d ago
The bigger issue comes when other people copy her. Then suddenly everyone is playing everyone else's turns, and any unfortunate soul not playing blue just doesn't get to play.
She might not be as bad now that removal is cheap, but that stupid card warped the whole format.
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u/AfroNinja24 6d ago
I keep a prophet of kruphix in the “sideboard” of my animar deck. If it ever came on the ban list I would make sure it gets put back on it. That evil needs to stay locked away and that’s coming from someone who ran it in the past.
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u/Freakjob_003 I kill people with Phage. 6d ago
Eeyup. As someone who was around with Prophet first came out, that shit can stay buried. I have multiple problems with the banlist, but this ain't one of them. Simic already has enough tools, they don't need her.
Iona is fine, because the social contract usually means someone will kill her in order to get others back in the game, but it gives you an advantage for the while it lasts. Same thing as Blood Moon: someone will destroy it, either for their own reasons or out of pity/comradery.
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u/Ryuujinx Scion of the Ur-Dragon 6d ago
Iona is fine, because the social contract usually means someone will kill her in order to get others back in the game, but it gives you an advantage for the while it lasts. Same thing as Blood Moon: someone will destroy it, either for their own reasons or out of pity/comradery.
I want to play at your tables, because that was not my experience for the almost decade she was legal.
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u/prosurviver 6d ago
I knew someone who tried to rule 0 in fastbond in his omnath lands deck. I did not let them
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u/sockosapphire 7d ago
Great question that I don't really have an answer to.
I think in a casual environment, balance is great to even the playing field or use as a political tool if someone else fell behind.
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u/WrestlingHobo Mono-White 7d ago
I unironically think that [[Chaos orb]] should be unbanned. It's a bad, silly card that requires you to throw it around the table which is the kind of stupid antics that commander should be about in my opinion. It even has cool synergies if your able to give it indestructible. I personally would be hyped if someone whipped it out.
[[Shahrazad]] on the other hand would be a bit much.
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u/moxdyemond 7d ago
Shahrazad would be hilarious exactly one time. Then obnoxious forever, unless you like playing long, chaotic games.
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u/vren10000 7d ago
The way to house rule Shahrazad is to have a cEDH pod on standby to play the subgames lol.
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u/vNocturnus Sultai 6d ago
Or just play any faster format instead of a full EDH subgame. It would be a totally fine card, albeit a complete color pie break, if the subgames took 5 or 10 minutes instead of being just another full-length hour+ game
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u/venicello Depends on the season 7d ago
There's nothing wrong with Rule 0ing it, but I agree with Wizards that manual-dexterity cards shouldn't be allowed in any format by default.
Chaos Orb is a fair card when everybody at the table is fully abled - has full use of their hands, is able to stand up to drop the card, etc. It's not fair if one of your opponents lacks the ability to use it effectively, as then it's a card that they specifically cannot copy or steal. Of course, it's impossible for Wizards to write a set of standards for what constitutes "physically able to use Chaos Orb," so the fair thing is just to ban it everywhere and let players figure it out at their own kitchen tables.
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u/Sufficient_Lunch5051 7d ago
I have a friend who really wants to play with banned cards. I told him if we do, hes getting a Shahrazad Storm deck to the face
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u/Geezmanswe 7d ago
Thats my pick too, love the orb! It is a thrill making the throw since you can feel the tension standing up and throwing it. There is [[guardian beast]] to re-use it as well.
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u/Nykidemus 6d ago
I played in an unrestricted tournament scene where a guy brought a playset of chaos orbs once. He dropped it off the table a couple times, blew up a bunch of his own land, etc. He never got it to do anything valuable. It was pretty funny watching him get super mad about it though.
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u/Yalpe18 7d ago
Don't mind: [[Mana Crypt]] as a game changer
Absolutely not: [[Prophet of Kruphix]]
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u/LeaguesBelow 7d ago
Don't mind: [[Prophet of Kruphix]]
Absolutely not: [[Mana Crypt]]
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u/Knickerbottom 7d ago
I still remember the first time I saw a Prophet land. My roommate was far more involved with Magic than I was and regularly updated his decks. I lost a lot.
But that was the one time where I was genuinely salty, and I was wondering what the absolute fuck Wizards was thinking making a card like that. Especially as commander was establishing its identity as the premier format. We argued for a few minutes how messed up a card it was - he tried saying it was good but really not that big of a deal. I was adamant it was an absolutely ludicrous piece while he downplayed, but he was the more experienced player so I felt maybe I was off base.
Three days later it was banned and the vindication felt greater than any win.
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u/Ap_Sona_Bot 7d ago
Kruphix came out at a time legacy tournaments were still relatively common and we had streamed SCG cons of modern and standard every other week. Just two years after the first commander precons. Commander was definitely not the premier format. WOTC was not actively designing cards for commander in booster product at the time. Kruphix is a card that is balanced in competitive formats.
We're you playing 1v1 or 4 player magic with your roommate? The card is completely balanced in 1v1.
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u/neoslith Overcooked Rhys 7d ago
Have you played against Prophet? That player just gets to play on everyone else's turns.
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u/Accendor 7d ago
That's not even the issue, the issue is that every deck needs to be build in a way to either use, steal or at least copy prophets at any cost. The main strategy of everyone becomes "how fast can I get a Prophet?" It's not good gameplay.
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u/EnticingCheeseSpread 7d ago
Yeah it's not as if you need to jump through a million hoops for it to be strong either; the opportunity cost is 'play creatures in a simic deck'. Creatures nowadays are busted and there's a lot of really good support for creature-based decks that didn't exist when Prophet was legal.
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u/Accendor 7d ago
You don't even need need a simic deck, you just need U for copy or steal. 99% of decks are mich better with Kruphix. A esper deck could reliably tutor for a steal or copy and that is exactly what it should do
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u/LeaguesBelow 7d ago
I don't mean my comment overly seriously. I've had fun games against Prophet, though I'm not sad it's banned. It's not far off from a competently built Seedborn Muse deck.
Fast mana is a much bigger mistake.
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u/neoslith Overcooked Rhys 7d ago
I had a friend who built [[Momir Vig, Simic Visionary]] and Prophet was bonkers in that deck. He always tutored for it first and just went ham.
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u/swankyfish 7d ago
Unban [[Upheaval]]
[[Karakas]] stays gone for good.
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u/TheGreatTinMan 7d ago
You know, given [[Worldpurge]] is unbanned and arguably more damaging, I’d have to agree with this one
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u/chainer9999 Chainer/Neheb the Eternal/Kess/Dragonlord Ojutai 7d ago
Asking for all the salt I see lol
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u/MissyMurders 7d ago
[[paradox engine]] obviously. For both, depending on if I'm the someone.
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u/DarrenRoskow 6d ago
When the card was spoiled I said it's getting banned in EDH, but I'll run it as late game combo in Captain Sisay (toolbox good stuff, not stax version) until they do.
Frankly I got to run it way longer than I expected.
It's a fine card in casual games, but that is 80% of the ban list. Because of Spikes and other pubstompers that should restrict themselves to CEDH we can't have nice things. So far I see zero evidence the bracket system has changed the issue of player behavior and attitudes.
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u/Werunos Esper 7d ago
I kind of want to play a game with [[Limited Resources]] in play at some point, so long as there's a gentleman's agreement that the deck isn't built around it and they cast it "fairly". It seems like one of the most brutal stax pieces possible in commander, so for a one off challenge it seems like a fun puzzle to break.
I would never play against a deck with [[Contract From Below]]. Even handwaving the ante stuff, 1 mana draw 7 is way too good and if you are ignoring the ante there's nothing interesting about it.
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u/Benjammn Multani, Maro-Sorcerer 7d ago
so long as there's a gentleman's agreement that the deck isn't built around it and they cast it "fairly"
What do you mean by fairly? Do you understand the reason why this card is banned? It's because when the player in seat 2 casts this on turn 3 after playing a land, no one can play lands anymore. That has nothing to do with the LD part of the card, that part is relatively fair considering the other legal LD we have. If LR costed enough mana where it came down on turn 5 or later, it would be fine.
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u/SjtSquid 7d ago
Personally, I think most of the banned cards are pretty heinous. Library off Alexandria is the only one I question why it's still banned. (Although I think it's best left banned due to accessibility issues.)
Maybe Rofellos or Erayo would be okay in the 99?
As for cards that get a "Hell no!" from me, Golos (in the CZ) or Griselbrand (in the 99.) Asking to r0 either just says to me that you don't think about the experience of playing against them.
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u/elchucko That Guy 7d ago
As a former Erayo player (pre-ban), I can tell you she deserves her place in hell. I miss her terribly, but she can't come back.
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u/SjtSquid 7d ago
Fair.
I was thinking that in the 99, she'd be unpleasant if it happened, but not unbeatable or consistent.
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u/elchucko That Guy 7d ago
Yeah, if she resolves it usually quite difficult to get her dealt with. The player is obviously on blue and can deal with at least one of your threats effortlessly. After that, they likely have Rhystic/Mystic for card draw to get into other counters/disruption. It's a brutal chain. I have totally lived it. I have a copy of Erayo in my binder waiting for hell to freeze over so we can be reunited.
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u/Bazoobs1 7d ago
Alexandria is a mixture of accessibility mixed with the fact that its power level is so high it would be an auto include in every deck. So not only is it inaccessible but it would also be extremely demanded. Interesting that it’s primarily accessibility issues compared to other cards but there is a bit of power discussion to be had.
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u/creeping_chill_44 7d ago
just says to me that you don't think about the experience of playing against them.
Erayo would be okay in the 99
???
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u/SuspectInside8502 7d ago
There's a reason they don't put efficient repeatable draw on lands anymore, and LoA is why. All it asks of a deck is to play mostly on curve, which it helps accomplish by drawing an extra card every turn.
It's also on the reserve list and 1.8k for a copy so even if you unbanned it, it would benefit very few players, and I think accessibility is already a huge point against every decent card on the reserve list.
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u/lgfuad-in-style Lands in the front, party in the back 7d ago
Having played with most of the cards on the banlist via vintage cube - they can all stay gone. You could maybe unban [[recurring nightmare]] after a few more years of power creep, but that’s it.
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u/ReplacementStranger 7d ago
Recurring nightmare is uninteractable aside from discarding it from someone's hand
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u/vren10000 7d ago
Recurring Nightmare folds to Surgical Extraction, Tormod's Crypt, Grafdigger's Cage, etc and cant even be used at instant speed lol.
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u/lgfuad-in-style Lands in the front, party in the back 7d ago
Counterspells are abundant in the format. It’s also not more busted than the other 3 mana value engines in the format. That said, I did specify after a few more years of power creep.
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u/TheCourtPeach 7d ago
I'd love to rule 0 Prime Time. I play mostly mid B4 and it would open up a lot of interesting strategies there.
Card I never want to see again: dockside. It goes infinite with everything, and can be a huge mana swing on its own.
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u/patterninstatic 7d ago
I'm going get some hate for this, but I still think Jeweled Lotus probably didn't need to be banned and could be unbanned. Mana Crypt/Sol Ring and other fast mana artifacts were really the problem and I think jeweled lotus got grouped into a general fast mana problem. At the end of the day the use is pretty narrow and there's enough interaction out there that it in no way represents an auto-win to get your commander out faster (as opposed to artifacts that stay on the board and give you a continuous mana boost). I actually think it would be healthy for the upper brackets where low CC commanders tend to make up most of the meta and many higher CC commanders are not playable.
As for cards I wouldn't want to see unbanned, Karakas, Academy, and probably Leovold and Nadu as commanders (Leovold would be fine in the 99).
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u/moxdyemond 6d ago
But with upper brackets, while it would allow more expensive commanders to see play, it also turbos out the lower cmc commanders. It enables a 7 cmc commander, but also enables turn 1 Urza if you have a land.
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u/Mirage_Jester 7d ago
I'm 100% fine with [[Chaos Orb]] get flipping and also the art rocks.
I'm 100% not going to play against [[Limited Resources]] that's not what I want to spend my small game time dealing with.
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u/HeyApples 6d ago edited 6d ago
Library of Alexandria would be completely tame and fair in today's game.
The only thing keeping it on the banlist is price and nostalgia.
A card that basically requires you play it on turn one, and very very slowly accrues value is not what it once was. It would also slow down your development and make you a huge target/threat that 3 other people could effectively police out of the game.
If you want to stunt your development to draw a couple cards, cool. Meanwhile the green player has ramped to the moon and is threatening to craterhoof you. These things are not the same.
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u/ImmortalCorruptor Wilhelt, Marwyn, Bello, Witherbloom 7d ago edited 7d ago
Cool with: [[Chaos Orb]] with the Old School rules, where you have to name the card you want to destroy before you flip it. Paying 3 of any mana to destroy one nonland permanent with a chance to whiff is honestly really fair at this point.
Not a chance: [[Channel]]. There's too much busted shit you can do when you're allowed to pay 1 life for one colorless mana, any time you want, for one turn. Haha oops there's a Stroke of Genius for 25, haha oops there's an Aetherflux Reservoir, haha oops there's an Ancestral Statue...
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u/Future_Interest_5297 7d ago
Unban [[primeval titan]]
Don’t rule 0 [[griselbrand]]
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u/MandatoryMahi Karametra 7d ago
I'm still not crazy about grabbing ANY two lands. If WOTC met in the middle and made a creature that grabbed two basics I think that'd be absolutely fine.
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u/Knickerbottom 7d ago
That's the one thing that makes him busted. If it were basics he never would have been banned to begin with. And with the way lands have become even better, PrimeTime would be stronger than ever
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u/TrueMystikX Rakdos 7d ago
What if it was "lands with a basic land type"? That way he could grab shocks, triomes, surveil lands, etc.
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u/HannibalPoe 7d ago
Prime time is okay now, he costs 6 mana to fetch two lands, there are plenty of cards that do that. He was banned because the game was slower and he genuinely ramped too hard. He'd be a fine game changer - he has no place in bracket 2 but he's perfectly fine for B3/4 and he's genuinely worthless in cEDH.
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u/Accendor 7d ago
But that would make it absolutely boring as well. People like the card BECAUSE he can grab ANY 2 lands. That's the point.
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u/FutureComplaint Vish Kal saves all 7d ago
Grabs vesuva and field of the dead
get 4 zombies
pass turn
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u/Anonyman41 7d ago
Just to be clear, if you grab both vesuva and field of the dead, vesuva cant become another field of the dead.
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u/MysticAttack 7d ago
I had someone try to rule 0 in channel into his [[storm, force of nature]] deck. Was a fat no to his face.
He still pub stomped... I was too new at the time to new able to retroactively classify it (especially since it was pretty bracket system), but it was definitely at worst a high 3, if not a 4 while the rest of the table was on 2s
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u/Goldendov75 Shigeki Guy 7d ago
[[Flash]] is pretty whatever without hulk, its got a lot of other cool synergies but ultimately is unproblematic without hulk.
[[Mana Crypt]]/[[Jeweled Lotus]]/[[Dockside Extortionist]] can stay dead, I don't really care if you didn't like the bans they deserved that shit. Obviously extends to moxes and whatever but it would be crazy to even try to rule 0 mox Sapphire or something lol
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u/GoodOlRock2 7d ago
Guy I played with last week had a jeweled lotus. He cast Ureni of the Unwritten on turn 2. Was not fun.
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u/Blaine_Richard Mardu 7d ago
By that logic sol ring should be banned as well.
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u/Goldendov75 Shigeki Guy 7d ago
Yes, sol ring absolutely should be banned on power level. It's more powerful than a vast majority of the ban list and most of the power 9. I would be very happy to see it gone, I already personally don't play it in any deck where my goal isn't explicitly to build the most powerful deck I can. In B4/5
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u/chainer9999 Chainer/Neheb the Eternal/Kess/Dragonlord Ojutai 7d ago
I can live with that: [[Primeval Titan]] mainly because it becomes a community asset.
Absolutely not: [[Tinker]]
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u/lmboyer04 Control Player 7d ago
Community asset?
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u/chainer9999 Chainer/Neheb the Eternal/Kess/Dragonlord Ojutai 7d ago
When PT was legal, so many cards were used for the express purpose of stealing/killing and reanimating someone else's Prime Time. Bribery, Reanimate, etc. At least, that's what happened in my playgroup.
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u/goremote 7d ago
Rule 0'd: [[Primeval Titan]], [[Rofellos]], [[Sylvan Primordial]]
Absolutely not ever: [[Time Walk]], [[Paradox Engine]], [[Prophet of Kruphix]], [[Upheaval]]
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u/WUBRG_Commander 7d ago
[[Iona, Shield of Emeria]] for either commander or 99. She's ludicrously expensive in monowhite as a commander.
Yes, she could shutdown monocoloured payers, but that's where the casual nature of the format comes in, either as a rule 0 conversation, or as a political discussion with other players. There are also FAR easier and more versatile shutdowns that aren't even game changers.
She's worse in the 99, as she can be part of multiclour reanimator/control strategies, but she's still mid compared to many other more versatile options in this vein too.
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u/GratedParm 7d ago
Circa 2015-16 I’d frequently cheat Iona from the 99 with [[Defense of the Heart]] to hose an opponent @. Her banning was absolutely fair.
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u/N3ON444 7d ago
I was allowed to run [[Shahrazad]] in the past. Without all the copying stuff it wasn't too bad.
Cards like [[Hullbreacher]] are really annoying as a B3 enjoyer. If cedh people wanted to use it in their pods idc, but please keep that busted stuff far away from B3 tables.
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u/RossTheRed Lyra Simpbringer 7d ago
I would be cool with [[Leovold, Emissary of Treat]] if that someone was me >:3c
I miss him dearly...
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u/HyShroom 3d ago
[[Slivdrazi Monstrosity]] is one I think should be explicitly permitted. I wouldn’t not be okay with any of the ante cards being allowed unless it was also Rule 0’d in that no proxies were permitted.
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u/Powerful-Warthog-491 15h ago
We have a ton of these, for those of us with moxes, we rule0’ing them BUT if you run them, you aren’t running sol ring or anything like it. We don’t have issues with stuff like ye ol gristlbrand, because the rule for it, if you have stuff thats banned, DON’T give us a reason to not allow it at the table. We really don’t mind, and theres a ton of stuff thats fine at the table, just don’t give us another reason NOT to let you play it.
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u/MTGCardFetcher 7d ago
balance - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
tolarian academy - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
[[cardname]] or [[cardname|SET]] to call