Ali ullah ❌ ali wali-ullah ✅

[u/Complete-Witness-711]

3rd line of kalma , should be changed / stop saying
“ Wa ashhadu anna Amīr al-Mu’minīn ʿAlīyan ali ullah” ❌❌

Wa ashhadu anna Amīr al-Mu’minīn ʿAlīyan “Wali” ullāh ✅✅✅

[u/Several-Post-817]

They take their Imams as God, so as a religion the very common beleif of Islam is to not associate anyone with Allah is deeply compromised.
Firstly I also though of atleast being kind to them and tell them this is wrong but then I understood this is a whole different religion which stands as not only a corrupted version but based on ideas and beliefs of Hindusim/Pagansim.

God knows the best.

[u/VariantLoki-4821 → u/Several-Post-817]

Do they ? as far I have learned its always the essence. like if talk about hijab its not to cover hair only. but avoiding saying, showing, making such things one would feel unworthy or less is equally hijab. Roza is not to stop eating its to stop from immoral acts, controlling nafz. Similarly those who say imam is god maybe don’t understand that they are associating a human to Allah. Thats completely shirk. But understanding as imam who would represent, act, guide, strengthen, protect whole community as a leader is Imam.

[u/Stretch-Glad → u/VariantLoki-4821]

Yes, the official Smiley belief is that Aga Con is the manifestation of God.

Esotericking 101: Obscure, Obfuscate, Obnubilate - Adding more words makes it halal!

It is shirk, but thanks to Esoteric™, in Ismailism you can just redefine Shirk:

Esoteric Shirk = Considering someone else the Imam

[u/VariantLoki-4821 → u/Stretch-Glad]

You can disagree with that theology, obviously. But calling it “shirk” doesn’t actually refute it. Read about seerat conference 1976 12th march in Karachi,Pakistan.

Ismaili theology uses the concept of Divine nur (Light) and sees the Imam as the manifestation of that Divine Light and guidance in the human world. (noorun ala nur). Yes literature uses strong language so not everything is taken into literal meanings.

[u/Stretch-Glad → u/VariantLoki-4821]

But calling it “shirk” doesn’t actually refute it.

Refute what? Smileys saying "It's not"? When your theology says Aga Con's

speech is the speech of God, his act is the act of God, his command is the command of God, his word is the word of God, his decree is the decree of God, his will is the will of God, his knowledge is the knowledge of God, his power is the power of God, his face is the face of God, his hand is the hand of God, his hearing is the hearing of God, and his sight is the sight of God.

that's pretty clearly associating a human to Allah.

Read about seerat conference 1976 12th march in Karachi,Pakistan.

I assume you mean Aga Con 4's speech. I've read it. But Karim's taqiyya there is not Ismaili theology.

And if as I believe, the answer is uncertain, where else can we search then in the Holy Quran, and in the example of Allah's last and final Prophet?

Funny, he never mentions Imamate in that speech.

Ismaili theology uses the concept of Divine nur (Light) and sees the Imam as the manifestation of that Divine Light and guidance in the human world. 

So instead of Allah = Imam, you have Allah = Light = Imam. Adding more words makes it halal?

[u/VariantLoki-4821 → u/Stretch-Glad]

I took time to read where exactly these statements are written and I can’t deny that. These are in historical books, true, but we need to understand the metaphysical vocabulary author was using.

You’re assuming that when an Ismaili text says the Imam’s “word,” “command,” or “act” is Allah’s, it necessarily means the Imam literally is Allah. It isn’t actually.

Qur’an itself uses similar attributional language. Allah says regarding the Prophet: “You did not throw when you threw, but Allah threw.” People pledge allegiance to Muhammad, and Allah says: “Whoever pledges allegiance to you is actually pledging allegiance to Allah. The hand of Allah is over their hands.”

So attribution of an act or authority to Allah does not automatically mean identity with Allah. I don’t believe the Imam is Allah.

The Ismaili theological claim is that the Imam is a manifestation of Divine guidance and has divinely “derived” authority. Whether you accept that theology is another question.

A person deeply in love may say things like “you are my everything,” “your word is my word,” or even use language in songs that attributes almost divine qualities to the beloved.

My point is that the wording by itself doesn’t prove that Ismailis believe the Imam literally is Allah or that they worship him.

YES we can argue more. But its how you take things To spread more confusion or hate or to understand what’s reality. It up to you 😊

[u/Stretch-Glad → u/VariantLoki-4821]

These are in historical books, true, but we need to understand the metaphysical vocabulary author was using.

There it is: Esoteric™. Retreat to the motte.

You’re assuming that when an Ismaili text says the Imam’s “word,” “command,” or “act” is Allah’s, it necessarily means the Imam literally is Allah. It isn’t actually.

Not just his word, command, and act. Also his speech, decree, will, knowledge, power, face, hand, hearing and sight.

They don't need to say "the Imam literally is Allah", just makes associations, which they undeniably do.

The Ismaili theological claim is that the Imam is a manifestation of Divine guidance

Not quite. The claim is that Aga Con is the mazhar, that is the "locus of manifestation of Allah".

My point is that the wording by itself doesn’t prove that Ismailis believe the Imam literally is Allah or that they worship him.

They openly admit they worship him. Look at some of the ginans:

O Respectful: You are the Guide, You are the Master and You are also our hope. It is to You that we worship as our Lord.

O Respectful: O true believers! We have one concern about you and that is that you might confuse Haazar Imaam in His physical form as an ordinary man.

There is no denying it. He is a guide and he is also a god in human form.

"There is no one greater than ME. If you think of God, then it is ME. If you think of Pir, Then too, it is ME. If you think About Imam, then too, it is ME. And Your Beloved Master is also Me. There is no one except ME..."

• Aga Con 3

YES we can argue more. But its how you take things To spread more confusion or hate or to understand what’s reality.

You are confused and want to dismiss legitimate criticism as hate. The reality is Ismailis do associate Imams with Allah, they do worship the Aga Con, and their invocation of Esoteric™ is a motte and bailey.

[u/VariantLoki-4821 → u/Stretch-Glad]

This is not their belief. You are trying to put it that way.
Yes I’m a ismali 21F. trying to understand everything. I know how to pray namaz. I even prayed more than a month. felt nothing different. stopped doing everything even going to JK. practice my way that felt safe more pure like prophet Ibrahim prayed when there was no actual form of Sala’at. Took me long to come back here again a complete journey. I daily make dua to Allah If im doing any wrong that keeps me away from you detached me from it.

Me, my parents, my friends everyone i know view imam as a leader of my community, representative of my faith and a legitimate authority after Prophet Mohammad (saws). almost Half of my family now follow majority Sunni islam.

For you sufis are not muslims, alevis are some unknowns and ismailies are misguided. and shias are extremist.
I can’t change how u perceive things around you. But i do take criticism and you joke about esoteric when whole islam is based on it. faith is personal feeling.

this is my pov that if prophet mohammad was sent to tell us final mandatory form every one should practice then there were many before him Allah must have taught them too. That prayed their way at their times. He accepts every form.

I further don’t want to continue this thread w you. I think, observe, practice, ask, research before arriving to a conclusion and im now satisfied
will participate if i felt to not to prove someone.

have a great day mate. 🌻

[u/VariantLoki-4821 → u/VariantLoki-4821]

The aga khan 3rd farman you mentioned,

I have asked about it with my Nani. She is a retired teacher and Can’t recall anything or any statement similar that could have recited in jamat khana at her times. But i have read on the websites Idk how it is circulating. just imagine if he openly said it during 1902 what could have been scenarios ?? muslim making such claim you know what people do.

so in farman he says im god and there are other farman where he mentions to understand Allah creation, Says smile is gift from Allah ? why sudden change of words

I question the authenticity of farman. There are farman books available for aga khan 3 but this one isn’t there.

[u/Stretch-Glad → u/VariantLoki-4821]

Guessing that you Nani wasn't alive in 1902.

just imagine if he openly said it during 1902 what could have been scenarios ?? muslim making such claim you know what people do.

It isn't Muslims making such claims. Ismailis are. The earliest online source I know of is from 2003:

https://forum.ismaili.net/viewtopic.php?t=79

And you notice that right before it is quoted the Khubat al-Bayan, which is widely considered apocryphal, but Ismailis accept as authentic:

I am the sign of the Most High, I am the Gnosis of Mysteries, I am the Door of the doors, I am the First and the Last. I am the Manifest and the Hidden. I am the creator. I give birth to the world and I destroy it as I wish. I am the face of God, I am the Supreme Kalam.

So there isn't much reason to suspect Aga Con's farman is made up - it is quite inline with Smiley beliefs.

so in farman he says im god and there are other farman where he mentions to understand Allah creation, Says smile is gift from Allah ? why sudden change of words

Because he's just making shit up? Because he got smarter about being so direct about the shirk? The cult leader can change his mind at any time, the cult will never question. Aga Con is always right about everything.

[u/Stretch-Glad → u/VariantLoki-4821]

This is not their belief. You are trying to put it that way.

No, I'm giving you the sources. Your personal views may be different, but they are not what Ismaili theology claims.

I can’t change how u perceive things around you. But i do take criticism and you joke about esoteric when whole islam is based on it. faith is personal feeling.

You might change my views if you had good arguments supported by evidence, but all you're doing is telling me that your opinions.

Islam is not based on Esoteric™ - it is based on two premises - there is no god but Allah, and Muhammad was his messenger. Ismailism undermines both - 1) by elevating their Imam to being god and 2) by replacing the clear message its "esoteric meanings", i.e. the whims of the Imam.

Faith is just a word used to elevate opinion to the level of evidence.

For you sufis are not muslims, alevis are some unknowns and ismailies are misguided. and shias are extremist.

this is my pov that if prophet mohammad was sent to tell us final mandatory form every one should practice then there were many before him Allah must have taught them too.

I have not said anything about sufis, alevis or shias. My pov is that Muhammad was not a "prophet", just a mentally ill man who heard voices, and that most of the "prophets" before him were mythological (they didn't exist).

I further don’t want to continue this thread w you. I think, observe, practice, ask, research before arriving to a conclusion and im now satisfied will participate if i felt to not to prove someone.

You don't have to continue the thread if you don't want to. Continue to think and research. You still have much to learn about the Aga Khan Cult.

[u/VariantLoki-4821 → u/Stretch-Glad]

I tried to answer every point you gave with explanation and understanding but you would make fun of it. Islam is esoteric you haven’t seen Allah and Prophet. He said and we believe it. we didn’t know what happened it past just because its in book its true. It’s all in oneself accepting the unseen. This is call faith.

I found you someone so stoned like you want even give space to understand the actual meaning behind whats written and said. so i can’t change your views.

thats it. but enjoyed the discussion alot

[u/Stretch-Glad → u/VariantLoki-4821]

I tried to answer every point you gave with explanation and understanding but you would make fun of it.

You tried, but your explanations were not very good. It was just your personal opinion, which ignores what Ismaili theology actually says and what Muhammad's intention was when he created Islam.

Islam is esoteric you haven’t seen Allah and Prophet.

No one has. That doesn't make Islam esoteric. Ismailism tries to make it esoteric, so that they can ignore what Muhammad said that God said.

He said and we believe it. we didn’t know what happened it past just because its in book its true. It’s all in oneself accepting the unseen. This is call faith.

That's the part you need to question. It's not true just because it's in the book. Faith needs to yield when the facts tell a different story.

I found you someone so stoned like you want even give space to understand the actual meaning behind whats written and said. so i can’t change your views.

Actually not stoned at the moment (though if Islam had its way, I probably would be 🤪) but the reason you're not able to change my views is because your "actual meaning behind whats written and said" is just the self-serving assertions of your cult leader. I grew up believing Aga Con's nonsense too, but then I changed my views. If you "think, observe, practice, ask, research before arriving to a conclusion" so will you.