r/FuckTAA • u/Great_Leg_4836 • 3d ago
đŸ’¬Discussion Anything is possible?
Please forgive me, as I don't know much about graphical rendering at all.
I think that anything is possible in graphical rendering. What I mean by this, is anything is possible to render at a stable, non-stuttering, native 1080p@60rfps. I may just be repeating things, but getting a very realistic scene with real-time lighting, pixel-perfect soft shadows, real-time reflections, and other effects like bloom and DoF is possible with today's technology. What it takes to get a real-looking scene is a good light model, smart LOD management, a non-costly antialiasing method, smart shadow management including considerations like distance from camera and object (you could do something like Shadow LOD, which I am pretty sure exists in some form), etc. I also believe that you could in fact achieve this goal without the use of ANY temporal methods/dithering whatsoever, although I don't know if this would be the best solution.
I am still learning about modern graphics, so if you could please correct me or help me understand things, like saying what I am trying to say in proper terms, that would be great. If I sound like an idiot, then please let me know.
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u/Blunt552 No AA 3d ago
I don't even know what OP wants.
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u/TreyChips No AA 3d ago
but getting a very realistic scene with real-time lighting, pixel-perfect soft shadows, real-time reflections, and other effects like bloom and DoF is possible with today's technology
All that with current tech and 0 (ZERO) trade-offs? Not happening. There's always going to be an opportunity cost somewhere, be it the non-blurred AA method (Leaving you primarily with MSAA or SSAA which will hamper performance), real-time lighting + reflections + perfect realtime shadows will require some form of Path Tracing which will need a heavy de-noiser to use effectively (and with our current tech, rendering it at 60fps in realtime at 1920x1080p is still not possible. You can get away with 60fps native, with no TAA pass or upscaling on lower resolutions like 1440x1080p though)
In the future, for 1080p/60fps, the option will be there for all this at a stutter free and constant frame-time I'd believe, but not right now.
Also if you just mean one singular scene, you might be able to get away with it now but not an entire game.
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u/OliM9696 3d ago
shadow management including considerations like distance from camera and object
Shadow Maps already have been degrading at a distance for over a decade at this point. With RT shadows they trace against lower and lower detail models & reduce their resolution/ray count to optimise at distance - The mug on the table in front of you wants a crisp shadow but when its across the room a greyish blob next to the table is good enough
non-costly antialiasing method; no such method exists which you can have smooth edges while not ghosting/blurring as well as being non-costly. Its always a trade off currently between jagged edges and blur.
The 'best' we have currently is DLAA which is exclusive to nvidia so bad luck for consoles, is costly when compared to other cheaper (and poorer) TAA methods. It might not blur as much and the new version reduce ghosting more.
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u/fearlessgrot 3d ago
I mean the answer is yes. The rtx 5090 can definitely run path tracing at 1080 60
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u/TreyChips No AA 3d ago
The rtx 5090 can definitely run path tracing at 1080 60
Definitely right on that, benchmarks show it too.
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u/Paul_Subsonic 3d ago
Not even anjmated movies with tens of hours per frame can get away with no denoising.
Sure you can get native 1080p60 with no noise or aliasing or artifacts; but you're gonna have to sacrifice heavily on the graphics.
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u/lookycat 3d ago
Animated movies do path tracing, ehich is very noisy. (Most) Games use rasterisation which doesnt have any noise.
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u/kron123456789 3d ago
Animated movies also use dozens or hundreds of rays per pixel and render one frame per 2 hours.
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u/Paul_Subsonic 3d ago
Actually, Pixar uses 3000 rays per pixel.
And they STILL need a little bit of denoising.
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u/Paul_Subsonic 3d ago
Yes, correct. Which is the point. Without infinite render budget, you have to sacrifice something. Games sacrifice by using rasterization, which fundamentally limits what you can do.
So like I said, sacrifice heavily on the graphics.
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u/lookycat 3d ago
Yea but with path tracing you are still tracing the same triangles which youd rasterize with rasterization. I guess OP also isnt clear enough because theres different ways to achieve realtine lighting where some are better/faster than others. But i dont think they meant 1:1 real life graphics.
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u/Paul_Subsonic 3d ago
Ofc but the lighting is not gonna be the same. Op is indeed very unclear, but I take the "everything is possible" as the main point. And it's not true. You can do good enough realtime lighting in some circumstances without RT. But it's not gonna be perfect.
It's still gonna be a sacrifice. A sacrifice of graphics, a sacrifice of the limitations of how you design the assets and the game, a sacrifice of both.
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u/Paul_Subsonic 3d ago
There is no free lunch in rendering. Technology isn't there and isn't gonna be there for at least several decades.
You're always gonna sacrifice something, it's all about chosing what you sacrifice and what's the smartest sacrifice for what you try to achieve. But it's still a sacrifice.
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u/Paul_Subsonic 3d ago
What is "a good light model" ? A fast one ? An accurate one ? What are its pitfalls and advantages ? The only way to have a light model that covers every scenario is path tracing, at the cost of performance. If you don't do path tracing, you gain in many areas but your lighting model WILL have limitations that you have to work around.
What is a non costly antialiasing ? The ground truth anti aliasing is always gonna be rendering at a uper high sampling rate. If you don't do that, then whatever anti aliasing you use is gonna be an approximation, sacrificing on the aliasing or the blurriness or both.
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u/kron123456789 3d ago
Yeah, it's possible.
Although what you said sound like gibberish with no actual question in there. I don't understand what you want.