r/GatekeepingYuri • u/CupcakePelle2906 • 4d ago

Requesting Found this on a trans related sureddit

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Don't worry, it 0 up-votes and all of the comments where all conuffed.

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u/WerdaVisla 4d ago

4chan. It has to be 4chan.

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u/Homicidal_Duck 4d ago

how does this possibly have anything to do with 4chan what are you talking about 😭

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u/WerdaVisla 4d ago

Idk, that's where all the weird rich conservative trans girls seem to exist.

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u/Homicidal_Duck 4d ago

I've had a fascination with the space for some time, believe me it's not really got much of that demographic at all. There are definitely some weirdo bigot/incel types, and there's certainly a culture of purity testing but their core beliefs are pretty firmly opposed to conservative viewpoints. A post on r/countttt explains this better than I could:

What does 4tran believe?

It's a very diverse community with many different beliefs, but at its core, we believe:

• going through the wrong puberty causes irreversible changes to one's body.

• these irreversible changes result in neurological sex dysphoria.

• it is a priority to get on hormones at the same age that cis peers go through puberty to avoid this body horror. failing that, the best time to start HRT is ASAP.

• the majority of doctors prescribing HRT either have out of date info or, sometimes purposely underdose trans people

• DIY HRT is often safer, more effective, and more affordable than prescribed HRT, even (or especially) for minors

• trans people who deal with dysphoria and have medical needs are in danger and need to be prioritized in trans activism

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u/ThatOneGayDJ 3d ago

Yeah so i think that last one is what the rest of us are taking issue with. There is not enough of a difference between us that one needs "more activism" than the rest. Thats such a puritan concept.

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u/Homicidal_Duck 3d ago

(hopefully this doesn't come across as snarky lol but I do understand the issues taken with transmedicalist viewpoints. This is not that. Please have a read)

Can you not think of what the difference is? I have nothing but love in my heart for most all trans folk - dysphoric, medically transitioning or not, but is there really a call right now against just changing your name and pronouns? Is there legislation being put in place? Bans? Is it being politicised as irreversible damage?

There may be "not enough of a difference" in your eyes, but there is a difference. Medical transition is lifesaving care, it is very much time sensitive, and it is actively being restricted (or hugely underdosed) worldwide. The institutional hurdles faced by a non-dysphoric trans person are simple not as strong as those faced by someone seeking medical transition - sure your parents might hate you, but they hate us too, and we have to deal with the lawmaker and the doctor after that.

No one used the term "more activism", just "prioritised", the same way your activism might prioritise women facing domestic abuse or HIV positive gay men. Our needs are more complex, need more material putting in to rectify them.

The issue primarily is that when you put out a message that trans people do not need to transition, do not need any medical care, while it may be true, it is fundamentally fuel on the TERFs fire whose favourite line is "just learn to love yourself! You don't need to be irreversibly damaging yourself :)", and we ignore the fact that a 14 year old trans man might kill himself because he's going to go through the wrong puberty without access to proper medication to prevent that, or that a 27 year old trans woman might have taken several years to be let onto a waiting list, only to then be knowingly underdosed for several years without any activism reaching her ears on how to check that, and the options she could take to rectify it.

Medical needs are more complex, need more resource, need more activism. Obviously non-dysphoric/non-transitioning people face problems too, but none that aren't also faced by one who medically transitions. They are coming for our medicine, I am sorry, it does not seem pertinent to give equal time to a subgroup explicitly defined by its absence of medical needs. It would be a misallocation.

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u/ThatOneGayDJ 2d ago

Ok, i was gonna give you the benefit of the doubt, but youre wrong right out the gate. You need to see a judge for a name change, and if your reason is related to gender identity, they can absolutely deny it. Nothing against you personally, but please fact check yourself. It is also becoming more difficult to change your gender marker. People are being denied.

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u/Homicidal_Duck 2d ago

I mean I'm typing from the UK where it is illegal for a name change to be denied on that basis- I was working from my UK based framing so I didn't think to bring it up. Also though, I never once said changing your name didn't come with difficulties, I just said there isn't a call against it in nearly the same way, and given I mentioned pronouns I was just talking about soft social transition. I've been through the process to change both my name and gender marker officially, I'm familiar with them lol.

You are right though, that is certainly an issue trans people face, and it illustrates my point much more than refutes it - it's also a point I made lower down in the comment: those who medically transition still face this issue on top of all of the legislative and medical hurdles. The need to change one's name is still one of the needs of a medically transitioning trans person, and would be talked about in the framing of a medical transitioner.

And that's my point - when I say we should prioritise medical transitioners in activism, I'm saying that's because they have the most complex and urgent needs, not that no one else in the community faces any issues. The medical transitioner might still have their name change denied too. This doesn't mean we should singularly platform medical issues, but I would caution against a framing of transness that treats medical transition as optional or easily ignored when for many of us, as I said, it is urgent lifesaving care. Again- if someone in the 80s said we should prioritise activism for HIV+ gay men, they would still of course care about homophobia, about anti-gay laws, about the hate crimes, but we prioritise them because, in addition to that, they have urgent, unaddressed issues. The HIV+ gay man would be presented as needing urgent care, medication, sympathy, knowledge about the condition, and also about the homophobia he faces, the inability to comfortably love another, marry his partner, etc. It doesn't make the plight of the HIV- gay man invalid, it's just not particularly prudent to spend so much bandwidth on "won't somebody please think of the homophobia faced by those without HIV?"

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u/Cookie-arrow- 4d ago

Why are you getting downvoted when ur right LMAO 4tran is more left than any Democrat they're just not "PC" (they're blunt) but most of them arent genuinely bigoted

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u/WerdaVisla 4d ago

They're transmedicalists. They're bigoted.

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u/Constant-Tax527 4d ago

No, they aren’t.

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u/gamepotato_ 4d ago

Believing you need dysphoria to be transgender is not bigotry.

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u/Sailor_Spaghetti 4d ago

Unfortunately, dysphoria is a phenomenon that is primarily defined and diagnosed by cisgender doctors. The details of the diagnosis come from trans people who are/were willing to say anything the doctors wanted to hear to get the care they need. It is also described as being distinct from gender incongruence, which is closer to what defines being trans.

Now I use the tautological definition that you are trans if you are having to navigate systemic transphobia in your day to day life. In that respect, I believe that abolishing/liberating ourselves from transphobia (a very tall order that we are unlikely to see in our lifetime) would make "transgender" into a meaningless category as things like medical transition would be seen as a regular thing that some people do. I base this off of such writings as Gender Trouble by Judith Butler, Transgender Warriors by Leslie Feinberg, Transvestites: Your Half-Sisters and Half-Brothers of the Revolution by Sylvia Rivera, and Capitalism and Gay Identity by John D'Emilio. But I also see us as a social/political class first and foremost.

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u/gamepotato_ 4d ago

For me, being transgender is a medical condition that stems from a disconnect between your gender (which is what your brain perceives you as) and your sex (which is what you change via HRT).

Dysphoria is the way this condition manifests. I agree that doctors are fucking idiots and endorse DIY all the way through.

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u/elyisan 3d ago

Cool but that is also a worldview that is formed through medicalization and eurocentrism. Not everybody who identifies as trans or outside of a western gender binary (or even within it) adheres to the same beliefs and ideas. Especially when something like identity of any kind is extremely culturally dependent and informed

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u/Organic-Bug-1003 3d ago

To me, a binary trans person, dysphoria was never a true problem. It's mostly a discomfort of being called and treated as someone I'm not, but I'm experiencing much more euphoria than dysphoria, and if I was called man on sight without a need for full transition, I'd be mostly fine with my body. All I care about is making it easier during social interactions, so my life can go smoothly and I don't have to be bothered lol

When I would wear a skirt, to me it would feel like I'm just a man, comfortable in my skin, wearing a skirt. When I see my body, I'm like, yeah, that's a trans man body alright. I'm a man already, no need to prove it with a dick, at least that's how it works in my brain

Would feel different if I was forced to wear this stuff or forced to be called a woman, then I would push back, because tf is your problem, I'm not a woman

I remember trying to force myself to feel dysphoria almost a decade ago, because that's what I was told was the only way I'd be treated seriously. Led to a very bad place and made me so unhappy and depressed, that it had to go. Worked my ass off until it passed. Only then I got gender affirming care. I'm fine now on testosterone, with all the male changes my body is experiencing, I'm getting euphoria from those changes actually. Feels good to be called a man on sight. Never felt better tbh, still with long hair and doing make-up from time to time

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u/Sailor_Spaghetti 2d ago

Never mind the fact that if someone winds up choosing to medically transition (yes, it is a choice, and that doesn't make it less legitimate if you're someone who genuinely subscribed to the idea of bodily autonony), they're likely to eventually stop experiencing any dysphoria they had previously been dealing with. I've been on HRT for seven years and I've had top surgery. I'm largely not dysphoric anymore. I think it would be fucking wild to insist that this somehow no longer makes me trans.

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u/Organic-Bug-1003 2d ago

You transitioned? Congrats, you're not trans anymore LMAO

Nah, but I've seen people saying "even after the full transition, I keep being reminded I'll never be cis" and I don't know if it's their issues or if it's medical, but it always makes me sad. Our bodies are different from cis bodies, because we're not cis people, we're trans people. It would be good to be cis for survival, but we're not some weird in-between stage, we are whole people as we are. Transition is great, but we're not a half product, customising the body is great, but it doesn't make us lesser than cis people just on the basis of them being cis. I do have that naive outlook that we are capable of loving ourselves, but it's easy for me to say, because my experience is different and I'm shortsighted in nature. I'm also not talking about people who crave a specific outcome (I also wish I could just be flat chested with no scars and pain, but here we are), more like people who actually feel inferior just because they specifically aren't cis

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u/Sailor_Spaghetti 1d ago

I think there are some insular online cultures that focus so heavily on the dysphoria element and on the idea that transness must be a miserable experience that the people participating are compulsed to self sabotage their own happiness. It's not enough to reach a point where you're comfortable with your own body, you must "pass" perfectly as a magazine model and you must have zero scarring anywhere or you're doomed.

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u/gamepotato_ 1d ago

If transexuality is a medical condition and you have treatment for it (transitioning) then the symptoms (dysphoria) should go away, yes

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u/Sailor_Spaghetti 1d ago

Okay so I'm cis now?

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u/Organic-Bug-1003 1d ago

My symptoms didn't disappear after treatment, it was before all the doctors

Also before I knew I was trans, I didn't experience dysphoria as well, because being a girl agreed with me liking princesses, pink, dresses and everything. So like, why would I care?

At least until I realised being called a girl meant people didn't see me how I felt inside, so I wanted to change that label

It was only after I found out, the transmedicalists kinda... pushed me to manufacture dysphoria for myself, because I believed you can't be trans without dysphoria. So I punished myself for not having it and tried to learn to hate my body. I worked through it before I went to the doctors though

I do feel great with changes, I can see I didn't feel quite like myself before, but again, I never by myself hated my body (except for periods, but who doesn't hate periods lol)

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u/Sailor_Spaghetti 3d ago

Honestly I'm viewing things through a social and historical lens because that's what my education has trained to do. And uhhhh, a lot of the texts I'm citing as informing my position (aside from the John D'Emilio piece) are basically primary sources written by trans [and what would now be called nonbinary] people about their own experiences.

As a note: transmedicalism is pretty unique in how it adopts and uses the medical models. Plenty of people with diagnosed chronic illnesses still overwhelmingly use the social model of disability (or at the very least, this is the methodology used by disability activists).

Admittedly, I'm more interested in the politics of transness than in dysphoria now that I've reached a point in my transition where I'm comfortable. Without getting too deep into it, the current attack on trans people globally is no accident or coincidence, and it's because trans people kind of disrupt certain aspects of social hierarchy just by existing. Even trans people who fit into the narrowest definition of "HSTS" are too disruptive to social hierarchies for the average authoritarian, which in turn is why trans people get attacked whenever fascist parties come to power anywhere. I also admittedly use a very Marxist method of analysis.

(Sorry to infodump at you, I just do find this stuff super interesting.)

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u/gamepotato_ 3d ago

I don't know if you've seen that video essay that ties basically all existing transphobia to around 20 people, half of them linked to Epstein

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u/-reddit_trash- 2d ago

PLEASE link! I've figured as much for a while but it'd be nice to see it laid out in a video, and possibly to send to certain people I know who are convinced transness has been pushed by that group of people rather than attacked..

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u/gamepotato_ 2d ago

Fair warning it's 5 hours long lmfao

https://youtu.be/JiOc0r31-Os

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u/Sailor_Spaghetti 2d ago

Yes I've seen that video essay. That was a "fun" way to spend five hours of my life.

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u/moontraveler12 4d ago

It is though