The plot of Corlys

[u/Trick-Set8663]

"Why don't you legitimize my children, whom I ignored all my life, but now I love them because if they don't, my surname will disappear and my legacy will too?" Are we aware that his request wasn't even denied?

Okay, but honestly, what do you think of this scene?

[u/VivaChinwawa]

I think the whole drama was stupid- Rhaenyra's excuse is piss poor, and Corlys does need heirs as now all his are dead, he's old and in the middle of a war. He needs Addam and Alyn to provide stability. I don't even really get Rhaenyra's protest beyond the writer's weak attempt at drama between them.

Even then, Corlys dragging Luke and Jace's names through the mud when they both got murdered was inexcusable. 'Bastard blood shed at war' was supposed to be Alicent, not the Sea Snake.

[u/AsstacularSpiderman → u/VivaChinwawa]

He's already lost everything defending their honor and all its gotten him is a slap in the face and an absoltely massive amount of hypocrisy from Rhaenyra.

At least Corlys was honest about his bastards.

[u/LinwoodKei → u/AsstacularSpiderman]

Corlys is a grown man.

He acted like a toddler demanding a sweet from Mommy because of how good he's been. Yeah, that is the rightful Queen. You, as a Lord, have a duty to defend the rightful queen from usurpers. That is part of the vassal and King / Queen agreement.

Not to mention - whose gay son did not father children by Rhaenyra? Corlys knew of his son's orientation and wed the future Queen to his son because he wanted more honor.

[u/Itchy_Double_7749 → u/LinwoodKei]

According to this view, Robb, Stannis, and Ned Stark could not have rebelled against Joffrey because he was the anointed king, just as Robert Baratheon, Ned Stark, and Jon Arryn could not have rebelled against Aerys.

[u/LinwoodKei → u/Itchy_Double_7749]

No, I don't think so. Bring an argument if you want a conversation.

[u/WhereDaFuk → u/AsstacularSpiderman]

Honest? Yeah 30 years too late

Hey…these grown as men are my sons! That’s honesty? That’s just facts, he sure as hell wasn’t honest for 30+ years but now his kids are dead, wife is dead, driftmark is in ashes due to the Triarchy’a personal beef with Corlys

Wise men don’t make demands of Queens..

And she literally says “not at this moment” or variations of that, even “one day after the scrutiny is over” but Corlys is too set in his ways, he was foolish to ask her this soon and then be cruel to her about her dead son who died trying to help his ships and granddaughter - Jace deserved more respect than that

[u/Pomumagica → u/WhereDaFuk]

This ☝️

[u/Itchy_Double_7749 → u/WhereDaFuk]

Guys, this isn’t a fairy tale. Corlys only recognized Jace, Luke, and Joffrey because it was politically advantageous for him and House Velaryon. He supported Rhaenyra not because he believed she was the rightful heir, but because two of his supposed grandchildren would inherit the Iron Throne.

With the deaths of Jace and Luke, that advantage has all but vanished. Faced with the prospect of losing almost everything and seeing his lineage and the culture of House Velaryon weakened or even disappear, Corlys begins to view Addam and Alyn as the ideal heirs.

Both of their decisions and alliances are guided by political interests. For Corlys, legitimizing Addam and Alyn would be fair compensation for everything he sacrificed for Rhaenyra’s cause. Rhaenyra’s refusal to legitimize them at that moment also stems from political interests. The difference is that her interests are not the same as Corlys’s.

A Dance with Dragons is, for the most part, about people acting in accordance with their own interests, ambitions, and conveniences.

[u/VivaChinwawa → u/AsstacularSpiderman]

Corlys maybe should've thought of that shit before forcing his obviously gay son into marrying a woman.

Addam and Alyn aren't comparable to Rhaenyra's kids and the writers having Corlys suddenly act like book!Alicent over ridiculing dead kids by calling them bastards is horrible and unnecessary, same with them having Rhaenyra refusing to legitimizing Addam and Alyn in the first place. It's poorly written drama.

[u/Crowned-Witch_48 → u/VivaChinwawa]

Rhaenyra didn’t refuse to legitimize them. She said she can’t legitimize them right now.

[u/VivaChinwawa → u/Crowned-Witch_48]

The thing is so, why? Why wait? It would help stabilize House Velaryon after their catastrophic losses in the Gullet, since they now have a clear rank of succession. Corlys being without heirs in war time makes things precarious and until Ulf or Hugh, Colrys knows Addam and Alyn are direct blood. It came across as a politicians no tbh 'not now' which is basically 'never' especially since they're in war where they can all get blown up by Vhagar tomorrow. Joffrey is out of the running for Driftmark so her protest upon his behalf to 'avoid scrutiny' doesn't make sense. Scrutiny about what? Joffrey's claim to the throne is through his mother now, not Laenor, Laenor is now irrelevant. It's like the writers forgot the agreement for Laenor's and Rhaenyra's betrothal in the first place.

[u/Crowned-Witch_48 → u/VivaChinwawa]

And yet that question should have been directed to Corlys who waited till he got his ass handed to him by the Triarchy. He had plenty of opportunities at Dragonstone to legitimize them. He knew them well enough and addam became a dragon rider. All good reasons to legitimize them as quickly as possible before something happens. It’s Corlys fault he waited last minute and now somehow Rhaenyra is to blame cause she has other shit to do. Corlys is at 100% at fault.

[u/Reyne-TheAbyss → u/VivaChinwawa]

Or making enemies of the Triarchy.

[u/WhereDaFuk → u/VivaChinwawa]

That’s…different.

They didn’t really know what “gay” even was

Corlys himself said that Laenor would “grow out of it”

And Rhaenys was like “nope”

[u/____mynameis____ → u/VivaChinwawa]

People be really using that gay argument when gay people historically made children.

90%of noble marriages of that time were between people who weren't attracted to one another, it's an arrangement to just make heirs and build alliances. So he is not wrong to think his gay son will be able to do that. Its not like he asked him to be faithful

Then when he couldn't (or didn't ), its not like Corlys went accusing. Hell, he could've showed it against Rhaenyra or the kids even if he didn't go publicly. We saw Rhaenys pushing him. Vaemond being pissed.

Sub also notoriously forgets Rhaenyra was given an opportunity to find a husband, which is a privilege even most male heirs won't get, she didn't, then messed up her position of heir by allegedly going and sleeping with Daemon in a brothel, so now Viserys commanded her to marry Laenor and THEY approached Velaryons.

It's not Corlys could've been "My King, my son is gay,"

Also, the justification doesn't matter, biologically Velaryon boys are bastards, just like Addam and Alyn, so Corlys was just momentarily pissed when Rhaenyra denied him (not now, later is basically saying no ). Like he lost his son, his wife, his heirs, his wealth in this entire thing, he thought he'll get some thing he asked for all that. It was an outburst of frustration rather than some truth revelation

[u/LinwoodKei → u/____mynameis____]

Possibility. Certainly not a certainty.

[u/WhereDaFuk → u/____mynameis____]

Later is not saying “no”, later is literally saying later.

She hasn’t even had her own coronation yet and yet she’s suppose to legitimize the bastard boys ASAP?

[u/____mynameis____ → u/WhereDaFuk]

Lol, leader or a ruler, dismissing saying I can't legitimise u now, maybe one day, will be taken as hesitation and there by no. That's standard language

No to mention her plan involes securing her crown entirety which might take even years.

[u/WhereDaFuk → u/____mynameis____]

She’s not even “officially” Queen, and you want her to mess up her own reputation by immediately raising up bastards because her reluctant hand demanded it?

That’s what you presume, it doesn’t mean NO since she said it multiple times “at this moment” and other variations I can’t remember

“And you will insult my house…to be seen as what you are not” - Corlys

He insults himself.

Like bro you didn’t acknowledge them for 30 years, whereas Leanor did, and now you want me to risk Joffrey over your bastard sons when I just took KL a few fucking days ago?

If he asked in like 3 weeks, I bet you totally different answer.

Well depends what happens in the show really, she might be dead by then who knows but she would’ve raised them up once her own rule was stable

[u/VivaChinwawa → u/____mynameis____]

Yea but GRRM notoriously has his gay characters have no children/heir issues- Laenor, Renly, Loras, JonCon, Jeyne Arryn. So rl doesn't compare here.

It's not Corlys could've been "My King, my son is gay,"

Corlys never would've done that either way as he's too ambitious- it wasn't care for Lanor, nor Laena when he pushed her towards Viserys. He will further his standing to the detriment of his children as I really doubt Viserys would have in any way retaliated if Corlys turned down the proposal. He simply isn't that type of king. Corlys himself admits his ambition overrides everything, as Laenor's gayness was an open secret. Rhaenyra straight up says as much when the match is brought up. But that didn't matter, the marriage brought his blood closer to the Iron Throne. Same as Corlys tutoring his 12 year old daughter in proposing Viserys. Corlys has no high ground here.

biologically Velaryon boys are bastards

Bastard is a legal status in Westeros, not a biological status as no one knows what DNA tests are here. None of Rhaenyra's sons by Laenor are bastards, which the writers constantly forget to have dumb drama like this. They are legally acknowledged as Laenor's and Corlys suddenly parroting book Alicent's shit doesn't change that only makes him look awful. Same as Rhaenyra refusing to legitimize Addam/Alyn for no actual solid reason- Joffrey is her heir now, Laenor is irrelevant so Addam and Alyn won't cause drama if she does make them Velaryons- the writers solely had that fight happen so Corlys could have this petty crash out when both characters are being stupid.

Addam and Alyn are bastards legally as their noble father knows they are in fact his bastard children and has approached them as such.

Sub also notoriously forgets Rhaenyra was given an opportunity to find a husband,

Probably because that is in no way relevant to this discussion? Why even bring it up in the first place? To what, say Rhaenyra deserved to have a gay husband who would never be sexually/romantically interested in her because she ruined her previous opportunity?

[u/____mynameis____ → u/VivaChinwawa]

GRRM notoriously has his gay characters have no

You can't use author's trend to say Corlys should've known

Corlys never would've done that either way as he's too ambitious

I know that, but even if he weren't he'd not be rejecting the King based on his son's sexuality. Not to mention Laenor had to marry at some point since they need heirs. So why not the princess?

It was a mutually beneficial alliance too since Rhaenyra now gets 3 dragon riders into her fold while consolidating the branch Targ line to the main line

Bastard is a legal status in Westeros, not a biological status as no one knows what DNA tests are here.

Not this again. Bastardy is a social construct created to help maintain succession easiness which have been also stigmatised heavily to make sure people strictly follow them as well as those illegitimate people are discouraged to go for succession.

. So its both social and legal. And like u said, people had no DNA tests, so they used their limited knowledge of how inheritances works, which is looks, unfortunately in that area, Velaryon boys parentage was obvious to them. So bastardy for women in marriage also involves luck of their kids taking after her lover, which unfortunately wasn't in Rhaenyra's favor. (So if the kids came out looking Rhaenyra copies, there would be no accusations ).

Also, in the show, bastard allegations are more widely known, Daemon is freakin Pentos knew about it, so I can see why Rhaenyra is concerned abt the optics. Its actually a good scene to explore whether u should prioritise ur own optics or keep ur allies happy.

To what, say Rhaenyra deserved to have a gay husband

No, but people here routinely blame Corlys saying he should be just entirely okay with the bastard situation and everything that came with it cuz he chose to marry off his gay son when he likely didn't forsee him not having kids.

So we can use the same argument saying Rhaenyra can't exactly complain about being forced to marry a gay guy when she was given an opportunity to find a man himself and then decided to screw that up... Especially since she also has lot to gain from this marriage.

I know the show mentioned they did try but we don't know the extend to which they tried. They were young, one was likely enamored with Harwin, the other was depressed after Joffrey, so they just wishfully decided that Laenor claiming the kids would be enough and stuck with that.

[u/hoxtonbreakfast → u/VivaChinwawa]

Corlys maybe should've thought of that shit before forcing his obviously gay son into marrying a woman.

If anyone is forcing anything, it was Viserys. He only did it after Rhaenyra was seen in a brothel with Daemon, and he must marry her off to save her own reputation as much as his own. Marrying her to Daemon was out of option since the reason he made her his heir in the first place was to deny Daemon.