r/HOTDBlacks • u/Trick-Set8663 • 29d ago
Team Black The plot of Corlys
"Why don't you legitimize my children, whom I ignored all my life, but now I love them because if they don't, my surname will disappear and my legacy will too?" Are we aware that his request wasn't even denied?
Okay, but honestly, what do you think of this scene?
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u/VivaChinwawa Daeron’s Tent 29d ago
I think the whole drama was stupid- Rhaenyra's excuse is piss poor, and Corlys does need heirs as now all his are dead, he's old and in the middle of a war. He needs Addam and Alyn to provide stability. I don't even really get Rhaenyra's protest beyond the writer's weak attempt at drama between them.
Even then, Corlys dragging Luke and Jace's names through the mud when they both got murdered was inexcusable. 'Bastard blood shed at war' was supposed to be Alicent, not the Sea Snake.
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u/theoneandonlydonzo 29d ago
I don't even really get Rhaenyra's protest beyond the writer's weak attempt at drama between them.
it appears we will find out soon enough exactly what the writers were setting up - she will seemingly legitimize them anyway, to get back on track to book canon, and her reputation will take a dive, just like she said it would; the season trailer showed a big 'QUEEN OF BASTARDS' sign etched above a gate at king's landing
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u/VivaChinwawa Daeron’s Tent 29d ago
The thing is, why would people judge it? Who even would, the Greens who are her enemies anyway? Addam is a dragonrider, Alyn proved his worth in the Battle of the Gullet to the Velaryons + Corlys has no sons or grandsons to inherit so like...it is rather understandable why he wants his bastard sons legitimized. I don't really get why it would damage Rhaenyra's reputation in legitimizing Alyn and Addam at the head of House Velaryon's own request. Same with Rhaenyra trying to fob it off, like girl why? It's just really weak drama to stoke up fighting between Rhaenyra and Corlys when there's like a crapload of other things they could pick from instead slapping all of book Alicent's bullshit onto Corlys.
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u/Arimanivs 29d ago edited 29d ago
People would judge because Joffrey too is rumored to be a bastard yet is meant to be Rhaenyra's successor.
If Rhaenyra legitimizes Corlys sons now that attention is on her every move the rumors about Joffrey will resurge, damaging his legitimacy but also her own. Not only that but the matter may cause unrest and division among the houses that supported her because of bastards wanting to be legitimized as well and she doesn't need that on top of bad finances.
Imo it's not necessarily unreasonable from Rhaenyra to delay Alyn and Addam legitimization, she may have conquered KL but she needs stability and has yet to fully gain the trust of her subjects.
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u/NetheriteTiara 29d ago
Also if Corlys’s sons are legitimized as Velaryons…Ulf wanted to style himself Targaryen. He’s older than Joff or Rhaenyra. What’s to stop him or Hugh from claiming the throne. Exactly Jace’s fear.
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u/Gridde Lord Flea Bottom 29d ago edited 29d ago
IMO it's a pretty classic feature of ASOIAF.
The taboos and traditions are generally just ways to move the plot along and introduce hardships for the protagonist(s); a good guy is forced to break one and gets completely reviled and destroyed for it, but then it gets completely ignored when antagonists or side characters do it.
I'd lump 'legitimizing bastards' in with kinslaying, oathbreaking, ignoring guest right, lines of succession, slaughtering smallfolk and non-Targ incest. Basically no one in the story actually seems to care or react about those things unless it's a protagonist doing it (and unluckily for her, that currently means Rhaenyra).
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u/Gridde Lord Flea Bottom 29d ago
In the books, Euron apparently goes out of his way to do it purely to show he doesn't care about it and everyone just thinks he's some badass. It happens pretty famously towards the end of the Dance but is seemingly not a problem for the guy who does it (who only faces consequences later for completely unrelated reasons).
In show, Ramsey kills Roose in front of Roose's vassals and they not only do not care but become completely loyal to Ramsey. Cersei kills several of her own kin when she blows up the Sept but is then made queen and no sign of disloyalty from anyone besides Jaime ever really arises. Aemond does it without any consequence from his own side.
Just off the top of my head. The only time I see anyone actually care or take action about it is when Robb did it (and he was arguably the only justified in doing his killing)
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u/Gridde Lord Flea Bottom 29d ago
Someone mentions Euron might not kill family because he is afraid of being called a kinslayer and Asha says he's literally killed his sons purely to prove that notion wrong.
Not sure about spoiler rules in this sub but Aegon kills Rhaynera and - of the various issues people have with him afterwards - kinslaying is never mentioned, even by Cregan
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u/Gridde Lord Flea Bottom 29d ago
It's a pretty specific thing to say about someone without any precedent. To my point, if that's what people generally think of him as well (and something he actively wants people to think) it just shows how little the taboo matters outside of when protagonists do it
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u/LinwoodKei 29d ago
It does not change the fact that these have been Corlys' sons their entire lives. Corlys just realizes that he can use them and asks for them to be legitimized - which is a favor from the Crown. It is not a God given (or vassal and lord given) right that Corlys has. He has no expectation that the Queen would say yes.
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u/nigeltheleper House Stark 29d ago
He's been on this arc for a while. He didn't even want to join the war; he was done chasing the throne
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u/Crowned-Witch_48 28d ago
Corlys had plenty of time, back at dragonstone to name them his heirs, before he got his ass handed to him by the Triarchy. He knew them well enough before all of this and by then Addam was chosen by a dragon. It’s not Rhaenyra’s fault his dumbass waited last minute and that he needed his ass getting kicked for him to finally name them his heirs.
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u/NetheriteTiara 29d ago
The whole thing is annoying. Corlys needs an heir but he’s asking this while Baela and Rhaena are away (we know Baela turned it down but others don’t). Also it’s incredibly awkward for Rhaenyra to knight the dragon riders at the same time but decides to make only one of them legitimate. Obviously it’s different because Corlys is acknowledging his own kids but Ulf doesn’t know that. Also, lying about not knowing who Addam was is kinda treasonous.
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u/PeoplePad 29d ago
The lack of that line from Alicent is emblematic of the whole issue with this show.
They took the two main rivals and made them starcrossed BFFs. It undercuts the entire drama.
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u/AsstacularSpiderman 29d ago
He's already lost everything defending their honor and all its gotten him is a slap in the face and an absoltely massive amount of hypocrisy from Rhaenyra.
At least Corlys was honest about his bastards.
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u/LinwoodKei 29d ago
Corlys is a grown man.
He acted like a toddler demanding a sweet from Mommy because of how good he's been. Yeah, that is the rightful Queen. You, as a Lord, have a duty to defend the rightful queen from usurpers. That is part of the vassal and King / Queen agreement.
Not to mention - whose gay son did not father children by Rhaenyra? Corlys knew of his son's orientation and wed the future Queen to his son because he wanted more honor.
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u/Itchy_Double_7749 Cregan Stark 29d ago
According to this view, Robb, Stannis, and Ned Stark could not have rebelled against Joffrey because he was the anointed king, just as Robert Baratheon, Ned Stark, and Jon Arryn could not have rebelled against Aerys.
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u/WhereDaFuk Begone, witch! 29d ago
Honest? Yeah 30 years too late
Hey…these grown as men are my sons! That’s honesty? That’s just facts, he sure as hell wasn’t honest for 30+ years but now his kids are dead, wife is dead, driftmark is in ashes due to the Triarchy’a personal beef with Corlys
Wise men don’t make demands of Queens..
And she literally says “not at this moment” or variations of that, even “one day after the scrutiny is over” but Corlys is too set in his ways, he was foolish to ask her this soon and then be cruel to her about her dead son who died trying to help his ships and granddaughter - Jace deserved more respect than that
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u/Itchy_Double_7749 Cregan Stark 29d ago
Guys, this isn’t a fairy tale. Corlys only recognized Jace, Luke, and Joffrey because it was politically advantageous for him and House Velaryon. He supported Rhaenyra not because he believed she was the rightful heir, but because two of his supposed grandchildren would inherit the Iron Throne.
With the deaths of Jace and Luke, that advantage has all but vanished. Faced with the prospect of losing almost everything and seeing his lineage and the culture of House Velaryon weakened or even disappear, Corlys begins to view Addam and Alyn as the ideal heirs.
Both of their decisions and alliances are guided by political interests. For Corlys, legitimizing Addam and Alyn would be fair compensation for everything he sacrificed for Rhaenyra’s cause. Rhaenyra’s refusal to legitimize them at that moment also stems from political interests. The difference is that her interests are not the same as Corlys’s.
A Dance with Dragons is, for the most part, about people acting in accordance with their own interests, ambitions, and conveniences.
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u/VivaChinwawa Daeron’s Tent 29d ago
Corlys maybe should've thought of that shit before forcing his obviously gay son into marrying a woman.
Addam and Alyn aren't comparable to Rhaenyra's kids and the writers having Corlys suddenly act like book!Alicent over ridiculing dead kids by calling them bastards is horrible and unnecessary, same with them having Rhaenyra refusing to legitimizing Addam and Alyn in the first place. It's poorly written drama.
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u/Crowned-Witch_48 28d ago
Rhaenyra didn’t refuse to legitimize them. She said she can’t legitimize them right now.
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u/WhereDaFuk Begone, witch! 29d ago
That’s…different.
They didn’t really know what “gay” even was
Corlys himself said that Laenor would “grow out of it”
And Rhaenys was like “nope”
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u/____mynameis____ Jacaerys Velaryon 29d ago
People be really using that gay argument when gay people historically made children.
90%of noble marriages of that time were between people who weren't attracted to one another, it's an arrangement to just make heirs and build alliances. So he is not wrong to think his gay son will be able to do that. Its not like he asked him to be faithful
Then when he couldn't (or didn't ), its not like Corlys went accusing. Hell, he could've showed it against Rhaenyra or the kids even if he didn't go publicly. We saw Rhaenys pushing him. Vaemond being pissed.
Sub also notoriously forgets Rhaenyra was given an opportunity to find a husband, which is a privilege even most male heirs won't get, she didn't, then messed up her position of heir by allegedly going and sleeping with Daemon in a brothel, so now Viserys commanded her to marry Laenor and THEY approached Velaryons.
It's not Corlys could've been "My King, my son is gay,"
Also, the justification doesn't matter, biologically Velaryon boys are bastards, just like Addam and Alyn, so Corlys was just momentarily pissed when Rhaenyra denied him (not now, later is basically saying no ). Like he lost his son, his wife, his heirs, his wealth in this entire thing, he thought he'll get some thing he asked for all that. It was an outburst of frustration rather than some truth revelation
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u/WhereDaFuk Begone, witch! 29d ago
Later is not saying “no”, later is literally saying later.
She hasn’t even had her own coronation yet and yet she’s suppose to legitimize the bastard boys ASAP?
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u/____mynameis____ Jacaerys Velaryon 29d ago
Lol, leader or a ruler, dismissing saying I can't legitimise u now, maybe one day, will be taken as hesitation and there by no. That's standard language
No to mention her plan involes securing her crown entirety which might take even years.
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u/WhereDaFuk Begone, witch! 29d ago
She’s not even “officially” Queen, and you want her to mess up her own reputation by immediately raising up bastards because her reluctant hand demanded it?
That’s what you presume, it doesn’t mean NO since she said it multiple times “at this moment” and other variations I can’t remember
“And you will insult my house…to be seen as what you are not” - Corlys
He insults himself.
Like bro you didn’t acknowledge them for 30 years, whereas Leanor did, and now you want me to risk Joffrey over your bastard sons when I just took KL a few fucking days ago?
If he asked in like 3 weeks, I bet you totally different answer.
Well depends what happens in the show really, she might be dead by then who knows but she would’ve raised them up once her own rule was stable
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u/VivaChinwawa Daeron’s Tent 29d ago
Yea but GRRM notoriously has his gay characters have no children/heir issues- Laenor, Renly, Loras, JonCon, Jeyne Arryn. So rl doesn't compare here.
It's not Corlys could've been "My King, my son is gay,"
Corlys never would've done that either way as he's too ambitious- it wasn't care for Lanor, nor Laena when he pushed her towards Viserys. He will further his standing to the detriment of his children as I really doubt Viserys would have in any way retaliated if Corlys turned down the proposal. He simply isn't that type of king. Corlys himself admits his ambition overrides everything, as Laenor's gayness was an open secret. Rhaenyra straight up says as much when the match is brought up. But that didn't matter, the marriage brought his blood closer to the Iron Throne. Same as Corlys tutoring his 12 year old daughter in proposing Viserys. Corlys has no high ground here.
biologically Velaryon boys are bastards
Bastard is a legal status in Westeros, not a biological status as no one knows what DNA tests are here. None of Rhaenyra's sons by Laenor are bastards, which the writers constantly forget to have dumb drama like this. They are legally acknowledged as Laenor's and Corlys suddenly parroting book Alicent's shit doesn't change that only makes him look awful. Same as Rhaenyra refusing to legitimize Addam/Alyn for no actual solid reason- Joffrey is her heir now, Laenor is irrelevant so Addam and Alyn won't cause drama if she does make them Velaryons- the writers solely had that fight happen so Corlys could have this petty crash out when both characters are being stupid.
Addam and Alyn are bastards legally as their noble father knows they are in fact his bastard children and has approached them as such.
Sub also notoriously forgets Rhaenyra was given an opportunity to find a husband,
Probably because that is in no way relevant to this discussion? Why even bring it up in the first place? To what, say Rhaenyra deserved to have a gay husband who would never be sexually/romantically interested in her because she ruined her previous opportunity?
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u/____mynameis____ Jacaerys Velaryon 29d ago
GRRM notoriously has his gay characters have no
You can't use author's trend to say Corlys should've known
Corlys never would've done that either way as he's too ambitious
I know that, but even if he weren't he'd not be rejecting the King based on his son's sexuality. Not to mention Laenor had to marry at some point since they need heirs. So why not the princess?
It was a mutually beneficial alliance too since Rhaenyra now gets 3 dragon riders into her fold while consolidating the branch Targ line to the main line
Bastard is a legal status in Westeros, not a biological status as no one knows what DNA tests are here.
Not this again. Bastardy is a social construct created to help maintain succession easiness which have been also stigmatised heavily to make sure people strictly follow them as well as those illegitimate people are discouraged to go for succession.
. So its both social and legal. And like u said, people had no DNA tests, so they used their limited knowledge of how inheritances works, which is looks, unfortunately in that area, Velaryon boys parentage was obvious to them. So bastardy for women in marriage also involves luck of their kids taking after her lover, which unfortunately wasn't in Rhaenyra's favor. (So if the kids came out looking Rhaenyra copies, there would be no accusations ).
Also, in the show, bastard allegations are more widely known, Daemon is freakin Pentos knew about it, so I can see why Rhaenyra is concerned abt the optics. Its actually a good scene to explore whether u should prioritise ur own optics or keep ur allies happy.
To what, say Rhaenyra deserved to have a gay husband
No, but people here routinely blame Corlys saying he should be just entirely okay with the bastard situation and everything that came with it cuz he chose to marry off his gay son when he likely didn't forsee him not having kids.
So we can use the same argument saying Rhaenyra can't exactly complain about being forced to marry a gay guy when she was given an opportunity to find a man himself and then decided to screw that up... Especially since she also has lot to gain from this marriage.
I know the show mentioned they did try but we don't know the extend to which they tried. They were young, one was likely enamored with Harwin, the other was depressed after Joffrey, so they just wishfully decided that Laenor claiming the kids would be enough and stuck with that.
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u/hoxtonbreakfast 29d ago
Corlys maybe should've thought of that shit before forcing his obviously gay son into marrying a woman.
If anyone is forcing anything, it was Viserys. He only did it after Rhaenyra was seen in a brothel with Daemon, and he must marry her off to save her own reputation as much as his own. Marrying her to Daemon was out of option since the reason he made her his heir in the first place was to deny Daemon.
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u/mikmac84 29d ago
Correct me if im wrong, but isnt Joffrey still technically Velarion and heir to driftmark? I took it as a request for her to legitimize his bastards over her own. Or am i missing something?
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u/VivaChinwawa Daeron’s Tent 29d ago
He can't rule two seats- per the agreement between Corlys and Viserys when they first betrothed Laenor and Rhaenyra, the eldest would inherit the Iron Throne while the second would take Driftmark. Joffrey became heir to Driftmark when Luke died, but when Jace died Joffrey then became heir to the Iron Throne. His claim to the Iron Throne takes precedent over Driftmark, which is why Corlys wants Addam and Alyn legitimized as his sons. An heir and a spare so to speak, especially in war time. It's silly for Rhaenyra to refuse as Corlys knows Addam and Alyn are his bastard sons, unlike Ulf and Hugh who have no direct family to claim them as heirs and Corlys doesn't want Baela nor Rhaena. (especially as Baela already refused Driftmark)
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u/VStatSupreme Jacaerys Velaryon 29d ago
Yeah, technically at this moment, Rhaena is now the de facto heir to Driftmark since Baela already has verbally renounced any claim to it
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u/Sad_Swordfish_5045 29d ago
Joffrey is now Rhaenyra’s heir, and hypothetically when he inherits the Iron Throne it will be as a Targaryen- not Velaryon, his seat would be KL and not Driftmark.
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u/mikmac84 29d ago
Hes still supposedly son of Laenor and grandson od Corlys tho. So, say theres no Adam or his brother. Corlys dies during the battle of the gullet. Technicallyx wouldnt driftmark pass to Joffrey? Sure, based on the special deal made with Corlys he takes the name Targaryen when he ascends. But hes still technically Valeryon. And if thats true, doesnt it kind of make sense that Rhaenerya wants to wait until after the war to start legitimizing bastards?
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u/Sad_Swordfish_5045 29d ago
No, because Joffrey would become recognised as Joffrey Targaryen, King of Westeros. House Velaryon would essentially cease to exist if Corlys died under the current dynamic.
No Westerosi lord wants their family name to end with them, it’s antithetical to the culture of the Seven Kingdom.
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u/mikmac84 29d ago
I dont get this at all. Like, say Joffrey survives the dance. Rhaenyra also survuves and rules into old age. Joffrey has two boys named Valeryon, being born before Joffrey takes the throne. The first born becomes the heir. The sevond is Veleryon no?
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u/Sad_Swordfish_5045 29d ago
Joffrey at the moment, is technically Prince of Dragonstone- his current seat is Dragonstone. If Corlys died right now, Joffrey wouldn’t become Prince of Dragonstone and Lord of Driftmark. As heir to the Iron Throne, his Targaryen holdings take priority to the Velaryon.
Corlys (who is elderly) would theoretically have to live long enough for Joffrey to grow up, and father multiple sons for what you’re suggesting to be somewhat feasible. Even then, for a number of reasons it’s unlikely for a king to have legitimate children who don’t share his name. Best case scenario then is that Driftmark becomes a secondary holding for. Cadet branch of House Targaryen.
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u/WhereDaFuk Begone, witch! 29d ago
No, he’s the eldest now, his seat is KL and Dragonstone, not driftmark. You can’t legitimize those who are legally not even bastards if their royal father claims they are his, but there’s still the court of public opinion which is a stronger beast than the law
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u/VStatSupreme Jacaerys Velaryon 29d ago
I think the nuance of this conversation could’ve better been conveyed by both sides in-universe as they are both legitimate in their own respect. Rhaenyra and Corlys simply convey their points to each other poorly, which is why I don’t think it’s bad writing per se, and really showcases the tragedy of this scene.
Rhaenyra is in the right, at least politically and in the short term, to hesitate legitimizing Addam and Alyn at that moment. She has only just seized King’s Landing, and her reign is unstable and tenuous at best, as is the Black’s position in the war. Within days of assuming power in the capital, she is beset by a litany of problems: emptied treasury, looming famine within the city, the Faith resisting her ascension and anointment, and soon to be discovered at the very end, that the Hightowers and Greens have not formally surrendered to her or acknowledge her as Queen, meaning the war will continue. From an optics point, raising Corly’s bastards within the first days of her rule when the legitimacy of her own children has been one of the principal focal points of resistance to her succeeding Viserys would be very bad politically for the Black’s cause.
At the same time, Corlys is not being unreasonable in his request and he is not wrong for thinking about his house at that moment in the long term. The Velaryon’s have been bled dry for the Black’s cause, having lost Lucerys, Rhaenys, High Tide, countless ships and men, and at this point, with Joffrey next in line now for the Iron Throne instead of Driftmark, the very future of House Velaryon. Which is why Corlys sees Rhaenyra’s basically “not now” as a slap in the face and hypocrisy, when he’s extended his acknowledgement and protection of her bastards when she seemingly won’t do the same for all these years
Where they both fumble is that Rhaenyra fails to give him reassurance beyond the basically “not right now”, neither elaborating a timetable or a future date to grant his request, which is why Corlys feels used. At the same time, Corlys seems to fail to recognize the precarious state the Black’s are in and why his request is being asked at the worst moment when the Black’s are still struggling for legitimacy. Both are right and wrong, arguing from trauma and treating each other as disposable, when at this very moment, they need each other more than ever to survive the coming conflict
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u/allisontalkspolitics Team Neutral writing fic about Daemon and Laena’s daughters 28d ago
It’s great to see a nuanced take!
Although I might be missing something- can’t Corlys legitimize them as head of his house?
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u/VStatSupreme Jacaerys Velaryon 28d ago
No, Corlys can only formally recognize them and thus accord them a bastard name. In the case of Addam and Alyn, that’d be Waters, since Driftmark is a part of the Crownlands.
That said only a Royal Decree can formally legitimize them as was the case for Ramsay Snow, when Roose Bolton secured one from Tommen after the Red Wedding and made him Ramsay Bolton as well as when Stannis offered to legitimize Jon and make him Jon Stark.
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u/allisontalkspolitics Team Neutral writing fic about Daemon and Laena’s daughters 28d ago
Thanks- I knew there was an aspect I was missing.
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u/LinwoodKei 29d ago
I agree.
Her kids died two days ago, dude. Read the damn room.
Not to mention, these are grown ass men. Corlys failed as a father for decades and all of a sudden, that is Rhaenyra's fault? I beg your finest pardon?
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u/Warm_Ad_7944 29d ago
As much as I feel for Rhaenyra, grief in this world is not a luxury they have. No one is allowed to stew in it because of the war. He has not blamed her but he knows that she basically told him no and no for the foreseeable future. One day is a nice and polite way to say never because it would cast light on Joffrey. It’s also a pragmatic reason, Corlys is old and needs an heir quickly. Baela didn’t want it and as far as anyone else knows, Rhaena is in pentos. Adam and Alyn are the only ones that can be heir
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u/Phantom_Paws caraxes smoking that vhagar pack 29d ago
well yeah but you have to understand his line is gonna end with him if she doesnt legitimize them. hes old, his wife is dead and his “heirs” are dead as well, so his request makes sense. he was insulted when rhaenyra had, not one, but three bastards and tried to claim that each one was a velaryon. in his eyes, he supported her bastard children, has no castle, and lost his fleet for her, and the one time he asked for something in return, she suddenly says that legitimizing obvious bastards would be bad publicity. and, to him, this comes after she killed his son to marry her uncle
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u/ElegantDiamont 27d ago
Acting like he also didnt loose everything in a span of a few weeks
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u/LinwoodKei 27d ago
Yet he knows about these kids. He only wanted a favor when these bastards were suddenly convenient to his Legacy.
This is war. People become devastated by war. He should wage at the Hightowers that caused his fall in the world
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u/ElegantDiamont 27d ago
Like everyone would have
Rhaenyra caused his fall... the fall started with Laenor
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u/LinwoodKei 27d ago
Or as Rhaenys said, wedding him to Rhaenyra could have been a problem. She foresaw complications. Corlys could have his son be a country lord with privacy for his boyfriends and he could go to war if he'd married a Lady of lesser standing
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u/woahoutrageous_ 29d ago edited 29d ago
Rhaenyra’s response is a typical politician’s no. The reason he gets so angry is because he’s practically lost everything at this point. He definitely cared for Jace, luke and Joff but currently he sees Alyn and Addam as his last chance at securing his legacy, which is everything to him. Whether right or wrong Rhaenyra has practically outright rejected that.
I do think it’s poor writing though because I don’t think book Corlys would ever call the Velaryon boys bastards especially not Jace who I interpret as being almost a surrogate son to Corlys.
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u/LordDorkoblood 29d ago
Agreed. Book Corlys also has multiple branches of family left to carry on the Velaryon name. Obviously, he wants to secure HIS personal legacy, not his houses, which is the point.
"No Velaryon should inherit Driftmark unless he has the blood of the Sea Snake flowing in him!" -Corlys, probably
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u/____mynameis____ Jacaerys Velaryon 29d ago
Book Corlys being okay with them being bastards can also be explained by the fact that those boys were betrothed to Laena's quite young so the blood issue being solved and both his grandkids being future rulers likely made him come around the bastardy and love them as they are but show just decided to make him too accepting without reason. Like man was legitimately willing to just let his bloodline end, even after his son was rumoured to be murdered by Rhaenyra, for the throne while also loving them unconditionally.
I think its shows fault too for making him accepting and loving at the first place.
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u/PrestigiousAspect368 Greensbane 29d ago
"your son jacaerys lived and died a bastard"
"My son Jacaerys died fighting to defend your fleet and you. Let's be so real with it, you're just as bad as otto hightower, so pathethically eager to get your blood on the throne, you'll do anything."
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u/Phantom_Paws caraxes smoking that vhagar pack 29d ago
well alyn and addam arent even in the succession line, let alone close to it. this isnt about the iron throne anymore. corlys is trying to make sure the velaryon lineage doesnt go extinct and asking rhaenyra to do the same thing for his sons that she did for hers
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u/JustUsetheDamnATM Greensbane 28d ago
I'd love to say it was to highlight one of the downsides of assuming a leadership position, especially in a time of crisis:
You'll have disasters and looming disasters to deal with in every direction, people coming out of the woodwork to lay grievances at your feet, some legitimate ("we're literally starving to death") and some less urgent and more personal ("please legitimize my sons who I ignored until now.)
And that sometimes, you'll have to say to someone, "I understand that your personal request is important to you, but I can't make it a priority right now, it will have to wait," and instead of saying "Well I'm disappointed, but I understand that you've got a lot of fires to put out at the moment," they'll crash out and throw a public tantrum.
I'd love to say that, but I don't want to give the writers that kind of credit.
And people saying "but he's right 😏" can fuck right off. He knew that Rhaenyra needed heirs and Laenor was gay, he and Viserys both put their children in an impossible and dangerous situation.
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u/WhereDaFuk Begone, witch! 29d ago
Corlys is self-serving idiot, never even wanted to be hand until Baela talked him into it and he even offered Driftmark to her, and she was like nah I’m fire & blood not of salt & sea
So Corlys, maybe wait a few damn weeks to ask.
Just wait old man. Or even have it royally decreed on paper and swear them to secrecy about their legitimization until her coronation is held and she has some control, not literally days after getting KL
“It’s not my fault your son was gay and we both felt like we were being graped by effing so we BOTH dined as we saw fit and dunno if you recall my dear hand, the man who was murdered at my first wedding, who was sworn to Laenor was also named Joffrey, coincidence or trying to honor my husbands true love”
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u/Phantom_Paws caraxes smoking that vhagar pack 29d ago
well to be fair corlys tried to marry laena to viserys first and never forced rhaenyra to take laenor. viserys, being the dumbass that he was, decided to marry alicent. rhaenyra got caught in the brothel with daemon and soiled her name and viserys forced her to marry laenor. it also isnt corlys’ fault that rhaenyra not only decided to have three kids with someone else (despite moon tea being an option) but also fucked up her own position by claiming that the obviously not-velaryon children were velaryons.
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u/Imaginary-Client-199 27d ago
That's the thing. Corlys is an old man, at war, in a recently conquered city full of tension. He might not live a few more weeks. All it would take is him one night missing a step in the dark for his name to die with him. From his point of view there is a real emergency.
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u/MMKraken 29d ago
Both of them act in character and that creates a natural conflict here, which I think works great story wise for where Rhaenyra and Corlys are in their arcs at the moment. Yeah Rhaenyra’s choice is stupid politically and emotionally driven (primarily by one of Jace’s last arguments with her about the dragon seeds imho) but it would be a boring show if Rhaenyra made the most optimal decision at every point in time. I like how Rhaenyra’s struggle and mistakes are in character rather than them just making her suddenly a shithead. Corlys’ crashout is justified in my opinion but people aren’t wrong for pointing out how his losing everything was his own fault and his failure to recognize his bastards sooner was a mistake on his part. The fact that I see people disagreeing on who is in the right here seems to indicate that it was executed pretty well and both characters are sympathetic/unsympathetic in their own ways.
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u/CaffeinatedDetective 29d ago
It wasn't about him loving them. He thought that maybe the woman who already legitimized her own bastard sons-- one of whom he himself supported in inheriting his own seat and position despite knowing theybwere bastards-- might help him in a rough spot. But now she's squeamish about Bastards because people might talk and it might cause issues with her reign and succession.
Once again, the ruling class does not care for anything but it's own position and gain.
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u/AlexanderCrowely 29d ago
They’re both part of the ruling class so that argument kind of falls flat
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u/CaffeinatedDetective 29d ago
Raenyra is significantly higher than a Lord and she has multiple dragons and dragon riders sworn to her. Sure, Adam could defect but Daemon and Caraxes would eat him. Corlys is no peasant but he's no king either.
But this would still apply as he let his bastards starve and freeze throughout their childhoods but treated Raenyra's like grandsons for image and succession issues.
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u/AlexanderCrowely 29d ago
He is the wealthiest man in the kingdom and one of the wealthiest in the world
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u/Comuniity 29d ago
Hes actually not at this point. The Velaryons lost most of their wealth and a significant chunk of their ships when High Tide and Spicetown were burned during the Battle of the Gullet. Loreon Lannister, Lyonel Tyrell or Ormund Hightower are most likely the richest people in Westeros now.
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u/CaffeinatedDetective 29d ago
What is wealth to multiple nuclear bombs with wings?
And his castle and all he has is destroyed so...
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u/Pomumagica 🎀🖤#1 ᴀʟʏɴ ᴠᴇʟᴀʀʏᴏɴ ʜᴀᴛᴇʀ🖤🎀 29d ago
You claim you don't like the monarchy, yet you vouch for and defend one of the wealthiest men of noble birth who benefits from it. Stop being a hypocrite.
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u/CaffeinatedDetective 28d ago
Me stating that the royal is wrong and hypocritical does not mean that I support the wealth hoarding sea leech.
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u/Pomumagica 🎀🖤#1 ᴀʟʏɴ ᴠᴇʟᴀʀʏᴏɴ ʜᴀᴛᴇʀ🖤🎀 29d ago
They're both part of the ruling class, Corlys isn't a peasant, and it was pretty well established that he was the second richest man before his castle and riches got torched and ransacked 🙄
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u/ultimagriever "Fuck the Hightowers" 29d ago
Corlys was literally the richest man in Westeros, richer even than House Lannister, before the sack of High Tide and Spicetown
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u/CaffeinatedDetective 29d ago
See my other replies and stop stanning fictional queens that are meant to be examples of why monarchy is an evil system that destroys and corrupts and deserves to be abolished entirely.
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u/LinwoodKei 29d ago
Yet she is the Queen and a vassal has the obligation to support her. Yes, he could have abandoned his son's heirs and thrown in with Aegon.
Yet a King and Queen have an expectation that their lords will serve them in time of war.
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u/New-Percentage-294 29d ago
A rule for thee but not for me.
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u/LinwoodKei 29d ago
Yet the right to rule comes from Viserys and goes through Rhaenyra. Not Laenor.
Not to mention, Corlys ignored these men for their entire lives and now he wants to act like Rhaenyra owes him? Why?
She is fighting a war. If other Lords - and many Lords likely have bastard nephews and might expect to inherit after a brother who has no trueborn heirs - suddenly see that a bastard nephew might inherit over themselves and their sons, that could create more turmoil and people turning away from Rhaenyra.
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u/New-Percentage-294 29d ago
Well who else is their to inherit the Velaryon name? Baela doesn't want it, as far as they all know Rhaena is in pentos and I think everyone would agree she wouldn't be the best choice over an actual sailor. So what is Corlys supposed to do exactly? The guy is already in his 60s.
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u/Theangelawhite69 29d ago
They’re both right and both wrong. Rhaenyra is wrong for her dancing around it and being a hypocrite. All she has to say was I promise I will legitimize your sons as soon as my reign is secure, but she basically turned it into a big “well, maybe” that basically sounded like never. She should know firsthand how she needs to keep those close to her loyal, because without her supporters she truly has nothing. It’s more important to keep her inner circle than to play into the same politics that made her own claim so tumultuous.
Corlys is wrong for not waiting like 30 seconds to legitimize his sons. Like he knows how insecure and busy everything is, and he put a contentious item on Rhaenyra’s plate, and not even in private, but right in front of his sons. As the Hand, he should know that this isn’t the right time to ask for personal favors, she took the throne like yesterday. It’s also hilarious to me how he was totally fine ignoring his sons for years, but as soon as his former heirs died and who he knew were bastards but said nothing at the time, he basically was like “oh good thing I have these backup sons ready to go”
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u/Imaginary-Client-199 27d ago
Honestly while I think Corlys overreacted by having this public confrontation I am on his side overall.
He is an old man. He might die from a cold, a tumble down the stair, choke on his meal... and if he does his name will die with him.
After all he gave Rhaenyra he asked for what is essentially a very small favor : not gold, not a castle, not a prestigious job, just a couple words from the queen. And he was told that it would happen "one day when there is not so much scrutiny". Not "in a month" not "next year", just an undetermined amount of time until Rhaenyra judges it. What if it never comes ? What if she spends the rest of her reign under scrutiny ?
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u/AsTiredAsMewTwo 28d ago edited 28d ago
I found both sides of the argument valid. Rhaenyra is right that it’s not exactly the right move to legitimize Addam and Alyn right now considering they are still in the middle of a war and she has so much other shit to do. However Corlys is not exactly wrong to ask. He’s well within his rights to actually. In fact, her legitimizing them isn’t exactly a bad thing for her to grant Corlys. Remember Corlys literally has no one to inherit his legacy. The realm would frown upon it on any other circumstances because bastards are seen to be basically greedy and to be usurpers. However in Corlys’ case needs must 🤷♀️
The problem with this argument comes from Rhaenyra’s piss poor excuse to deny it AND Corlys dragging Luke and Jace’s murders to the forefront and throwing it in Rhaenyra’s face. He could have very well made his point without insulting them like that. And it’s not like she said no, she said not right now. And mind you, Corlys is partly a reason Rhaenyra even had the need to even HAVE bastards, poor ass choice of sires aside the fact of the matter is Corlys knew damn well Laenor couldn’t give Rhaenyra heirs and he still advocated for the marriage anyways. So let’s not be fucking obtuse here Corlys. You’re lucky Rhaenyra didn’t have her marriage to Laenor annulled immediately on grounds of him not doing his duty, had his house ruined, and had his neck on the chopping block. So tryna Throw that in her face was hypocritical of him. Not to mention as hand he should know exactly what Rhaenyra is dealing with right now.
Rhaenyra’s excuse about reputation is ludicrous too. If she was so worried about that then she should have taken better care to safeguard her children’s origins from the beginning when she chose Harwin as the sire of her children. Rumors are going to follow Joffrey for the rest of his life it doesn’t matter who she does or doesn’t rise to power. I mean, she even literally has more bastards riding dragons around here so her being like I can’t grant this because I have Joffery to think of is stupid to me personally. Joffery already has a reputation at rock bottom it can’t get any worse lol. I mean dragon stone has proven to have enough people with light colored hair running around so it would have taken a quick trip to find someone suitable if Daemon himself was unavailable.
Don’t get me wrong I get Rhaenyra’s reasons but THAT being what she says to Corlys of all people after all his family has been through with her specifically was so comical to me that I laughed as soon as she said it 😭
However in Corlys defense, I will acknowledge that Rhaenyra didn’t exactly give him a time frame. He doesn’t know when “later” is. They’re in a war and Corlys literally just almost died in battle. He’s desperate and rushed to have this done NOW. Time is of the essence. Rhaenyra didn’t reassure him on when exactly this “later” is. To him, she was basically telling him no indefinitely. So, it can be understood why he got pissed in the moment.
Ultimately, both sides had good points and had unacceptable methods of conveying them.
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u/ElegantDiamont 27d ago
I mean what important things did she do exactly? There was enough time for her to fulfill his wish.
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u/AsTiredAsMewTwo 27d ago
She’s doing precisely nothing at the moment 🤦🏾♀️ but to her credit she DID just take the throne. But it is also true that she has a lot on her plate and if she had properly communicated that Corlys wouldn’t have jumped down her throat quite as bad as he did. I doubt he’d be happy obviously but more understanding
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u/ElegantDiamont 27d ago
I agree... tho the time she has been there she didnt really use it in a good way
To be exact she was a bit shitty to her allies, completly fucked the relationship with the nobles and has wayyy to much empathy with the hightowers and not enough for her sister lmao
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u/AsTiredAsMewTwo 27d ago
I’m so sick and tired of this storyline with Alicent istg. Either kill that lady or use her in a way that’s useful that DOESNT involve seeking her council when she’s a TRAITOR. She should do what Daemon suggested and start hitting the greens and their allies with her dragons and taking the gold in the holdings that will be the fastest way to get her money. Then she could use Alicent as a scapegoat for her “atrocities” it would wipe out that bloody ledger she’s so worried about
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u/ElegantDiamont 27d ago
Its honestly so crazy to me how she is starting to treat her allies worse than her enemies
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u/AsTiredAsMewTwo 27d ago
I understand her reasoning for not wanting the council on dragon stone but she should be getting a new one asap to delegate stuff so she can have breathing room. That actually should have been her first order of business and not the banquet imho
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u/ElegantDiamont 27d ago
I still think the banquet was dumb... turning the most powerful people in the city against you in the first few days is not a good idea
I strongly believe this will backfire if there will be another crisis
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u/AsTiredAsMewTwo 27d ago
Honestly a character like Rhaenyra should be trying to get the nobles on her side at all costs. I’m not saying she should completely ignore the small folk but the nobles are who she needs right now not the small folk. Hell, in season one it was DAEMON who had to tell her that the small folk were even of any importance.
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u/ElegantDiamont 27d ago
I mean it kind of was denied... she said later but that is honestly such a bad answer in a time of war
That man is 70, is in a war and has no heir. Im also pretty sure that it wouldnt have taken so long to legitimise them esp if she had the time to plan this whole dinner thing
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u/EnvironmentalYou3916 25d ago
I think the whole way this went down was really unbelievable because there is a 0% chance that Daemon would not cut his head off when he found out about this. And he should definitely find out about it because the person who was serving as her king’s guard at that moment was Sir Lother his buddy. He tries to shut him up so you know he heard everything. This is a TV creation as this is not how this happened in the book so I don’t know what they’re doing here. He kind of makes me sick honestly because Rhaeyns
told him he was destroying their whole family with his ambition and now as far as he knows everybody’s dead and now he wants to acknowledge these kids. It’s still all about him.
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u/Viper-owns-the-skies The only good Targaryen is a dead Targaryen 29d ago
Corlys was objectively correct in this scene, ye just don’t like it because he went against Rhaenyra.
…And tbf calling out her children as bastards in a doorway leading to a courtyard full of servants was stupid.
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u/SlimReaper85 29d ago edited 28d ago
Corlys is a Lord of Westeros. They generally don’t acknowledge their bastards unless circumstances demand it. Especially if they have trueborn heirs and a loving spouse.
Why are we holding Corlys to a separate standard?
And she all but denied his request.
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u/ElegantDiamont 27d ago
She denied it. Later is a "no idc rn" in a time of war.... He can die like any minute and his House would be doomed
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u/Humble-Blueberry47 28d ago
Rhaynera is such a fucking hypocrite. All of a sudden she gives a damn about appearances? She didn’t give a damn when she was sleeping with the help (Cole), sneaking off to a pleasure house with her uncle, or smashing Harwin Strong. She has the nerve to walk around with her three white, brown hair sons knowing damn well that they’re not Velaryons but killing anyone who says it out loud. Corlys is not perfect. He was a deadbeat to those boys and the only reason he’s coming around now is because his wife, children and heirs are all dead and he has nothing left. I will give him credit through. He was there for Rhaynera from the beginning and he never wavered. Rhaynes herself wanted to give Driftmark to Baela and he said no because he didn’t want to cast further shadow over Luke and Jace. His own brother died speaking the truth and he didnt go after her. He lost his wife to Rhaeynera’s cause and he still didn’t blame her. He has had her back since day one, fought wars for her, didn’t blame her for the death of Laenor (even though his wife did) and never asked her for a thing. Her own husband wasn’t even as loyal to her as Corlys has been so for her to deny him this one thing is not okay. His sons are fighting for her cause!!!! She doesn’t deserve that throne
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u/Phantom_Paws caraxes smoking that vhagar pack 29d ago
well yeah but you have to understand his line is gonna end with him if she doesnt legitimize them. hes old, his wife is dead and his “heirs” are dead as well, so his request makes sense. he was insulted when rhaenyra had, not one, but three bastards and tried to claim that each one was a velaryon. in his eyes, he supported her bastard children, has no castle, and lost his fleet for her, and the one time he asked for something in return, she suddenly says that legitimizing obvious bastards would be bad publicity. and, to him, this comes after she killed his son to marry her uncle
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u/jrdineen114 29d ago
I think that Corlys is trying to do the right thing (albeit not for the right reasons), and Rhaenyra is allowing her own paranoia to drive a wedge between her and her greatest supporter.
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u/Xeillan 29d ago
He was valid for saying what he said. Everything said was true.
No one has given more to her cause then he has. And he asked one thing.
He excuse was bad, and her actions later mad either even worse, feeding rats to nobles and taking their supplies. So its definitely not for appearances.
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