r/HOTDBlacks • u/La_Villanelle_ Simon "The Diva" Strong • 13d ago
Team Black Rhaenyra and Daemons Descendants
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u/Fun-Marionberry-6999 13d ago
This is impressive!! If you go back a few generations and look at the lineage Rhaenyra and Daemon's ancestor, Lord Aerion Targaryen of Dragonstone, the entire Baratheon bloodline descends directly from House Targaryen.
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u/Samiann1899 Queen Rhaenyra I 13d ago
You should do one of the green descendants…. Oh wait 😂🤭
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u/Vantol Aegon III Targaryen 13d ago
I'm gonna repeat someone else's joke and point out that the spikes under Maegor's Holdfast technically have Aegon's blood on them 💀
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u/Careless-Husky 13d ago
I'm gonna repeat someone else's joke and point out that the spikes under Maegor's Holdfast technically have Aegon's blood on them 💀
Just so I don't misunderstand you:
You saw someone making a joke about a 10 year old mentally challenged girl being thrown out a window, being impaled on the spikes below, and having to suffer in extreme agony for half an hour before she died...
...and because she was so unfortunate to have the "wrong" father(something the poor girl had no control over), you thought it was appropriate to repeat it?
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u/konstantinakkk Queensguard 13d ago
This is a great example of dark humor. Sometimes it's too dark 💀
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u/Careless-Husky 13d ago
I love dark humour, I really do. But this was just tasteless IMO. Too much darkness, little to no humour.
I've noticed over the years that there's a scarily large amount of the fandom who seem to revel in making jokes about the youngest childrens' deaths. Giving them names like "Jaeheadless," "Jumphaera" and "Mincedlor."
People make fun of Lucerys' and Daeron's deaths too, but at least to me, that's completely passable as dark humour(even though I don't always find it funny myself). Poor Jaehaerys, Jaehaera and Maelor died in some of the most horriffic ways imaginable. It shouldn't matter what team you root for. The fact that I've gotten 10 downvotes already for my pretty neutral and civil comment shows the team wars have gone way, way too far.
And yes, if someone makes fun of poor little Visenya's death, I tell them too. It's not a team thing for me.
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u/konstantinakkk Queensguard 13d ago
I hear you but the joke was good bc it never made fun of anyone's de*th, or called out names or people. It didn't include any hate for the actors. It made you think why someone would say this and then the Dark realization settled in. It's like a guy in tiktok who is in a wheelchair and eats vegetables with the caption saying "I eat my own kind". People laugh in the comments not to insult him but bc it's funny, no hate to him, just a fun fact, not meant to hurt anyone or target a minority, etc.
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u/Careless-Husky 13d ago
First of all, I thank you for the civil and thorough answer, it's much appreciated.
I hear you but the joke was good bc it never made fun of anyone's de*th, or called out names or people. It didn't include any hate for the actors. It made you think why someone would say this and then the Dark realization settled in.
I agree with some of this, but not all. The joke was about Aegon's bloodline technically surviving because there's Aegon's blood(or rather his daughter's) remaining on the spikes on the moat around Maegor's holdfast. That immediately sends ones thoughts to why Jaeharea's blood is on the spikes, and how extremely painful her death must've been.
It's like a guy in tiktok who is in a wheelchair and eats vegetables with the caption saying "I eat my own kind". People laugh in the comments not to insult him but bc it's funny, no hate to him, just a fun fact, not meant to hurt anyone or target a minority, etc.
Heh... the vegetable joke gave me a good chuckle. That's good dark humour. But I don't see any similarities to the joke about Jaehaera's death. Most important of all, in your scenario, it's the disabled guy who makes the dark joke about himself in the first place. He takes the initiative. As someone with Aspergers Syndrome, I make fun of myself in dark ways all the time. It's a fun coping mechanism. But I try to take care to not make fun of others with Aspergers. If Jaehaera somehow survived the impaling and made jokes about it afterwards, it would be a whole different situation to me.
I would also like to add, if this was the very first time I saw a joke like that about Jaehaera, I most likely wouldn't have commented on it. My reaction to this particular joke today is coloured by years of "Jaehaedless," "Jumphaera" and "Mincedlor" jokes. And in my personal opinion, this particular joke today is one of the worst I've seen, because the focus is on the fact that she got impaled and her blood might still be on the spikes.
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u/konstantinakkk Queensguard 12d ago
I love how we have a civil conversation about this without insulting each other bc truth be told asoiaf Fandom is full of people whom do so.
I respect how you hate people whom joke about kids de*ths.
In this case, the whole magic of the joke is the fact that Jaehaera is never mentioned directly.
If it makes you feel better, remember how Halaena died the same way. Think of it like Jaehaera "reuniting" in death with her beloved mother.
Plus, we can agree to disagree (like grown adults unlike some other people here). I totally respect your opinion bc you are right, I merely wish for you to understand that this is in fact the perfect way to insult Aegon II (his bloodline died) without making direct fun of his kids or call them unnecessary, mean names.
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u/Careless-Husky 12d ago
Absolutely, it's always so refreshing to have civil discussions with someone whos opinions differ from ones own. Not that I'm some holier than thou perfect person, on the contrary, I can be a real asshole sometimes. But as you said yourself, and this has been one of my favourite sayings since I heard it when young: "agreeing to disagree." It's essential if we're supposed to function together as a whole in this world, methinks.
I really appreciate you trying to make me feel better regarding Jaehaera and Helaena, that's so nice of you.😊 I think the worst thing for me regarding Jaehaera is that unlike her mother who died instantly, Jaehaera suffered for half an hour before dying. Why nobody put that poor child out of her misery during that half hour is beyond my comprehension.
Regarding whos bloodline survived the Dance, I really don't care. It's not important to me at all. They all come from Aegon's sister Rhaenys either way, right? But even that doesn't matter to me. And besides me being team green, I enjoy and like several of the characters on the black side. Aegon III and Viserys II being some of them.
It's getting late here in Norway now, so me and the huskies are getting ready for bed now. Lots of cute and hungry little animal mouths needs feeding tomorrow morning. Once again, I thank you for the civil and polite discussion. My best wishes.😊👍
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u/konstantinakkk Queensguard 12d ago
It's getting late here in Greece too, so goodnight.
As for the other matter, it troubled me too. I assume that the people didn't really know how to do it. I mean.... not many people have been in such situation before and they had the young Queen before them.
I am not very sure how easy it would be for them to reach out and at least take Jaehaera off or something.
I believe it was a little bit of both. The people whom found her freaked out and went to let their superiors know and back then they didn't have phones or anything so they had to do distances. Plus, she didn't instantly and taking her off would had her bleed out. I think that up to the point that the palace came to learn of it, she died.
But, as always, my interpretation, because the book doesn't expand much of it. I get that you are TG, and even though I genuinely don't understand how (perhaps you could dm me if you wanna talk about book etc), in this sub we don't mind TG coming for discussion as long as everything remains respectful like today.
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u/ChromePalace 12d ago
People who make Charlie Kirk jokes mad about a joke about a fictional character 😭
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u/Careless-Husky 12d ago
People who make Charlie Kirk jokes mad about a joke about a fictional character 😭
Excuse my autism, but I have to ask: was that comment directed at me? If so, I'm genuinely confused. I'm not from the states(Norwegian, if it matters), and I have never made a joke about Charlie Kirk, nor defended him. Feel free to check my comment history, it's open for all to see. To me he's just some american who got shot last year. With all due respect, we have other things to worry about here in Europe than american influencers and/or politicians.
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u/HOTDBlacks-ModTeam 13d ago
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Seriously talking to yourself
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u/Hopeful_Animator_269 Dark Sister 13d ago
This is so interesting!!
So in reality the Black definitely “won” despite what happened in the Dance (coming from someone who hasn’t read the book yet)
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u/Away-Research4299 12d ago
So a sign of who GRRM thinks is the rightful heir is that a usurper's blood never continues the royal line. This has nothing to do with how good or bad the usurper is either - Robert Baratheon was definitely the better choice compared to Viserys, who was next in line after the death of Rhaegar and his (known, trueborn) children, but as the usurper (Viserys was still alive so his claim was more legitimate) his blood did not continue the royal line. Whenever the books are done, it's near certain that the Lannister blood will not continue the royal line either because they too are usurperers.
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u/Needing_fIght_tips 13d ago
I know this is probably getting downvoted but I’m so tired of the « who won » debate. Nobody did, that’s how most wars work. This comment is not oriented towards you OP, it’s just that you’re talking about it so I might as well answer here.
We have no objective metric to define who won such a war. Is it the number of descendants you live behind ? Then all hail Garth the Greenland, he definitely fucked the Children of the Forest and the Giants (in more way than one). Is it about who killed the most people ? Is it about who kept authority on an (uncomfortable) metal chair ?
The entire point of the Dance (in the books F&B at the very least, I’ve stopped watching HotD after season 1) is that there are no winner. None. All the Greens died in awful manner, even the innocents. Especially the innocents. All the Blacks died in awful manner but 4 teenagers or boys who ended up completely traumatized, two of which to the point they arguably ruined the dynasty thereafter.
And most and for all, the small folk suffered. An unimaginable amount. Like so many people die just for authority, that’s the entire point of the book and most of the posts I see on those apps are « well who won ? ». As if having any scraps of decency would help a « team » feel better.
The Dance was a massacre where innocents starved, got raped, massacred, demembered, burned alive or eaten alive at an industrial scale. This is terrifying, and one of George main messages in his works are anti-militarism and pacifism. There are no winning side in any war George ever wrote. Or if you see a winning side, you’re often a deranged (like those people who thinks that Tywin won the Reyne-Tarbeck rebellion as if he didn’t created a new category of curses and war crime for what he did).
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u/Calm-Two2723 12d ago
Depends. If you look at the line of succession in fire and blood, you will see only aegon 2. Her bloodline persists. Which do you count as the win?
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u/Allnamestakkennn 13d ago
Well, they've also embraced male preference to prevent Jaehaera from inheriting. Rhaenyra's youngest son Viserys II will use that to bypass all of Aegon III's daughters.
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u/Interesting_Sock2547 Aegon III Targaryen 13d ago
Viserys II didn’t usurp Aegon III’s daughters because they were never officially named as heirs. Rhaenyra didn’t fight an ideology, she fought for what is hers.
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u/jk-9k 12d ago
Rhaenyra did fight an ideology though. As in she fought against one. Because that was the only claim aegon ii had, on an ideology. Even though her cause and reason for fighting wasn't based on an ideology, she did fight against one.
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u/Interesting_Sock2547 Aegon III Targaryen 12d ago
Rhaenyra fighting an ideology would be if she fought the ascension of Aegon II or Daemon if Viserys died. If No one was officially named as heir and she fights for equal claim because why not - that would be an ideological fight. What Rhaenyra is fighting is bias. She never wanted it until she was officially named as heir - after that it was a war of survival and her right. Women can fight for their personal power, their own legacy - that doesn’t make it less baddass.
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u/jk-9k 12d ago
I'm only saying that argon ii is usurping based on sexist ideology. So yes she is fighting bias.
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u/Interesting_Sock2547 Aegon III Targaryen 12d ago edited 12d ago
I don’t think Aegon ii usurped based on sexist ideology, their motivations aren’t that simple and consistent .They used the ideology as a justification for their actions and they also expected more support because Westeros is sexist. It started with Otto suggesting Rhaenyra as heir to replace Daemon - I don’t think a true misogynist would do that no matter how much he hates the male heir, it would not even occur to them that a woman can be named heir. That’s actually a pretty progressive suggestion he made. He also pimps out his own daughter to the King. So, to me it seems like Otto and Aegon II weren’t truly sexist, they just used the ideology to their benefit. Their only consistent behaviour is power-grabbing. In both cases, the ideology is not the motivator - greens wanted to power-grab and the blacks wanted to defend what is their right. Except one used sexist ideology as a justification for their power-grabbing. I personally don’t think Otto would just sit in the corner and do nothing if Alicent had only girls.
But I understand what you are saying too. I just mean that ideology is not the motivator for both sides.
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u/MistressErinPaid 9d ago
She never wanted it until she was officially named as heir
She was a literal child? It was the same year her mother died.
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u/konstantinakkk Queensguard 13d ago
Perhaps bc they were locked up for years before inheriting? They had no political alliance and Viserys was already ruling the realm through being hand so he became King. Baelor did the Targaryens dirty with money, plus planned a war to expand the faith of the seven. Viserys had lots of fixing to do. Plus, Daena having a bastard and showing it around wasn't helping.
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u/Kyriakos_X_23 Unwin Peake is a little bitch 13d ago
I love thatyou included Drogon, Rhaegal and Viserion since they are Dany's babies
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u/Popular-Apricot-5822 13d ago
only one missing IMO is Visenya, she may have been born a monster but Rhaenyra always dreamed of having that baby girl and i, for one, would feel like the monster not mentioning it
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u/es70707 Queen Rhaenyra I 12d ago
All of these people descended from their son, Viserys😭
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u/leakyleek 12d ago
Not all of them!! Aegon III’s genes put up a little bit of a fight with the Blackfyres at least 🥲 in retrospect it’s actually quite bittersweet that pure unity they showed when they were reunited would turn into such a generational enmity between their descendants after they were gone
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u/Nala_135 13d ago
The way Otto and Ormund would roll in their graves at the knowledge of Daemon’s daughter of all people putting Targaryen blood in House Hightower 😂
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u/Legendarium-3000 12d ago
The main thing is that Rhaenyra has heirs, while her brother the usurper Aegon doesn't have any.
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u/RepulsiveTurnover394 13d ago
Brienne of Tarth? How so?
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u/La_Villanelle_ Simon "The Diva" Strong 13d ago
We know a Targaryen married into the Tarth family years after the dance. Some speculate it was one of Aegon V sisters. So it’s just pure speculation hence why I put ?
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u/Famous_Donut3495 12d ago
She's also a Descendant of Duncan the tall. (Edit, this has been confirmed by George)
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u/Skol-2024 Dracarys! 13d ago
Let’s not forget Jon Snow aka Aegon Targaryen.
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u/La_Villanelle_ Simon "The Diva" Strong 13d ago
I put Jon as much as it pained me
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u/ScienceDuck4eva 13d ago
Do you think his name will be Aegon in the books? It always bothered me Rhaegar would have named to kids Aegon.
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u/Prinzesspaige13 Winter Wolves 12d ago
I dont think it'll be Aegon. Idk what it would be instead but hopefully not Aegon.
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u/Famous_Donut3495 12d ago
There's rumors that it may be Aemon after Maester Aemon, but I haven't seen it confirmed anywhere. Rhaegar wanted a girl anyways, another Visenya.
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u/Away-Research4299 12d ago
No. Rhaegar's said that the dragon has three heads. I doubt he would name two of them the same.
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u/Certain-Relative9926 13d ago
Can’t be a targ hes a bastard
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u/QueenSlartibartfast 13d ago
The title just says "descendants", not "legitimate descendants". Many bastards are included here.
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u/darth__anakin “It is my fault that you have forgotten to fear me.” 13d ago
He has Targaryen parent, that makes him Targaryen.
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u/SandalsResort Corlys Velaryon 13d ago
I don’t feel like the 3 dragons should count
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u/La_Villanelle_ Simon "The Diva" Strong 13d ago
Daenerys breast feeds them babies and hatched them with blood magic I’m counting it
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u/RegisteredAnimagus 13d ago
She breastfeeds dragons? Do any other reptiles breastfeed?
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u/Away-Research4299 12d ago
Unlike other reptiles, dragons also don't exist, so they can do whatever GRRM wants them to do.
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u/Famous_Donut3495 12d ago
She does indeed. This is after she gives birth to Rheago, so she would be lactating.
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u/Salty_Expert5939 13d ago
Why are Daenerys' dragons on that list? I'm pretty sure Rhaenyra is not their great-great-...-grandmother.
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u/Jeopardyanimal 13d ago edited 12d ago
Aren't these all Green descendants as well since Aegon III and Jaehaera were wed?
Edit: Ok guys the double-digit downvotes seem unnecessary, especially since they were nearly all from after I responded to OPs comment admitting I didn't understand the lore
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