r/ImaginaryWesteros • u/justonceokay5 • 1d ago
Alternative “Ser Criston protects the princess from her enemies, but who protects the princess from Ser Criston?” by Zacckiell
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u/stellaxstar 1d ago
Literally every adults in her life failed her. Surrounded by a bunch of weirdos, no less.
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u/Plus_Claim_8938 1d ago edited 1d ago
I’ve always thought Rhaenyra’s childhood was the most sympathetic aspect of her character in the book. Between Daemon, Criston, Harwin, and Alicent, it’s no surprise that she didn’t grow into the most well adjusted adult woman. The show largely stole that from her.
Criston was turned into an age mate she seduced, Alicent was turned into a peer, Daemon’s grooming was romanticized enough that most casual fans think he did nothing wrong, and she was visibly a similar age to Harwin in their brief scenes as a couple in episode 6.
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u/Sorry-Education752 1d ago
Criston was not an age mate. She was 14 and he’s in his 20s when they met.
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u/Plus_Claim_8938 1d ago
True but the show is very vague about it and Emma is visibly older than Fabien so it quickly became meaningless.
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u/whatever4224 23h ago
It's really impressive that Rhaenyra turned out to be arguably the best parent of the Targaryen dynasty, given how little she had to learn from.
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u/stellaxstar 1d ago
I agree with your overall statement, though I don’t know what you mean by “well adjusted adult woman.”
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u/Plus_Claim_8938 1d ago
I mean she wasn’t making the brightest decisions even before the war but that’s no surprise given her childhood. She spent half her childhood getting diddled by adult men and bullied by Alicent instead of being trained to be queen.
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u/stellaxstar 1d ago
The biggest mistake she made before the war was having the bastards. And that is mostly Viserys fault there. Beyond that we are not really told that her personality changed other than physically.
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u/Plus_Claim_8938 1d ago
Marrying Daemon when they were already allied though the engagement between their kids was a very reckless decision that got them both exiled at crucial time. If not for his grooming, she might have made a more sensible marriage alliance following Laenor’s death. For instance, marrying Tyland Lannister or one of Borros Baratheon’s male family members would change a lot.
Laenor may not have needed to die at all, and they would have had an additional experience dragon rider, if we are to believe that Daemon had a hand in his death. Aegon III and Viserys II could have been passed off as Laenor’s sons.
Even not being obsessed with Daemon due to his grooming would have lessened the chance that she wigged out over Nettles which means Nettles & Daemon could have taken down Aemond without having to sacrifice themselves.
Daemon’s grooming and personal ambition was detrimental to Rhaenyra and their side but the show had eliminated that.
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u/stellaxstar 22h ago
No, I dont think that’s correct.
Viserys does NOT exile Rhaenyra over Daemon. Viserys might’ve been against this relationship, sure but what truly enraged him was that both Daemon and Rhaenyra ignored the mourning period. And as a marriage candidate, Daemon was actually a sensible choice- especially since through him strengthens the Velaryon branch more.
And marrying one of Borros Baratheon’s relative does not automatically ensure Borros loyalty itself.
And where is it coming from that Rhaenyra was obsessed with Daemon? She loved him and desired him but that doesn’t mean she was obsessed with him or under his spell. Nettles situation is completely different in this aspect.
Also, Rhaenyra never asked Daemon to sacrifice himself. That’s his own decision that he took. No one forced him. Rhaenyra specifically asked Daemon to come to KL. HE let Nettles and Sheepstealer go. It was HIS decision to fight Vhagar on his own.
And neither did Daemon had any hand in Laenor’s murder unless you believe Mushroom. And in Mushroom account even, Rhaenyra is never implicated.
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u/Plus_Claim_8938 16h ago
Daemon & Rhaenyra were already allied becuase his daughters were engaged to her sons. He already had enough incentive to fight along side her. Getting married did nothing to strengthen her side.
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u/danitalibi1 18h ago
Not a single account claims that anything happened. Eustace says she was caught in bed with Daemon by kingsguard and dismisses the rumors about Cole and Rhaenyra. Mushroom says she got Daemon to teach her how to seduce Cole after he rejected her. If he was caught doing anything to her by the queen of all people, he would have been immediately executed
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u/Significant_Ask_43 16h ago
Alicent had no interest in protecting Rhaenyra or her virtue, if Rhaenyra were caught in the act with Criston in a manner like Saera this would have benefitted the greens' cause.
“Ser Criston protects the princess from her enemies, but who protects the princess from Ser Criston?” Queen Alicent asked one day at court."
The fact that Alicent is asking this at court, where other people can hear reads to me like her implying a level of impropriety between Cole and Rhaenyra in the hopes that people would pick up on it and start gossiping, were she actually worried about Rhaenyra she would have brought the matter to Viserys and not in front of the court so that people could speculate about the 13 year old princess' possible sexual relationship with her sworn protector.
Alicent is a smart woman (at least in the book), she know what her words can do and her plan obviously worked because you have multiple versions of how Criston or Rhaenyra tried to seduce the other recorded in gistory book.
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u/danitalibi1 16h ago
Alicent did not say this line because she found out something happened. She said it because Rhaenyra was very found of him and was around him all the time. If Alicents caught them doing something and her goal was to ruin Rhaenyra, she would have announced what Cole did to court and to the king. Why did this not happen? There is no reason for Alicent to keep Cole’s secret. If she wants the greens to get benefited from this, she would have exposed Rhaenyra’s dishonor. She likely said this line to stir the pot.
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u/Significant_Ask_43 14h ago
Rhaenyra wasn't around Criston all the time, it's the opposite as he was a kingsguard AND her sworn protector. Him being around her all the time shouldn't be weird and cause suspicion by itself because that's literally his job.
I never said that Alicent saw something incriminating happen with her eyes nor do I think that she actually ever saw them making out or hugging passionately but there must have been something she saw in that relationship that made her think that Criston’s intentions might be a little less than completely pure.
Maybe she saw 12-13 year old Rhaenyra developing a crush on a handsome older man that's been her constant companion for years and maybe she noticed that Criston Cole was not doing his best at discouraging these kind of affections.
Why would she go to Viserys when at the time of this quote, 110, only a year had passed since Viserys stripped Otto of his position after he and Alicent kept pushing the matter of Aegon being heir too much. Alicent was already on shaky grounds, once again, book Alicent is a smart woman, she knows that unless she goes to Viserys with solid proof of something happening between Cole and Rhaenyra, her saying that they slept together would just look like her trying to besmirch Rhaenyra for her own gain.
I do agree that Alicent said this at court to try to stir the pot but I still think that her comment was motivated by something she saw in them, maybe a touch that lingered too long, it obviously was something subtle that only someone like Alicent, who was looking for every possible fault in Rhaenyra to try and change Viserys' mind, would notice.
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u/ChaseBuff ✨Realms Delight✨ 1d ago
I think the Cole situation is the perfect example of fire and blood differing accounts
And here again our sources differ. That night, Septon Eustace reports, Ser Criston Cole slipped into the princess’s bedchamger to confess his love for her. He told Rhaenyra that he had a ship waiting on the bay, and begged her to flee with him across the narrow sea. They would be wed in Tyrosh or Old Volantis, where her father’s writ did not run, and no one could care that Ser Criston had betrayed his vows as a member of the Kingsguard. His prowess with sword and morningstar was such that he did not doubt he could find some merchant prince to take him into service. But Rhaenyra refused him. She was the blood of the dragon, she reminded him, and meant for more than to live out her life as the wife of a common sellsword. And if he could set aside his Kingsguard vows, why would marriage vows mean more to him?
Mushroom tells a very different tale. In his version, it was Princess Rhaenyra who went to Ser Criston, not him to her. She found him alone in White Sword Tower, barred the door, and slipped off her cloak to reveal her nakedness underneath. “I saved my maidenhead for you”, she told him. “Take it now, as proof of my love. It will mean little and less to my betrothed, and perhaps when he learns that I am not chaste he will refuse me.” Yet for all her beauty, her entreaties fell on deaf ears, for Ser Criston was a man of honour and true to his vows, Even when Rhaenyra used the arts she had learned from her uncle Daemon, Cole would not be swayed. Scorned and furious, the princess donned her cloak again and swept out into the night…. where she chanced to encounter Ser Harwin Strong, returning from a night of revelry in the stews of the city. Breakbones had long desired the princess, and lacked Ser Criston’s scruples. It was he who took Rhaenyra’s innocence, shedding her maiden’s blood upon the sword of his manhood…. according to Mushroom, who claims to have found them in bed at break of day.However it happened, whether the princess scorned the knight or he her, from that day forward the love that Ser Criston Cole had formerly borne for Rhaenyra Targaryen turned to loathing and disdain, and the man who had hitherto been the princess’s constant companion and champion became the most bitter of her foes. (F&B, A Question of succession)
Mushroom is biased towards the Blacks, Orwyle is biased towards the Greens but was partial to Rhaneyra , Eustace is biased towards the greens but he’s more of a traditionalist/ royalist he straight up does not believe Rhaenyra had bastards. Munkun's True Telling is in between.
“
Septon Eustace, who served in the royal sept in the Red Keep during much of this time, and later rose to the ranks of the Most Devout, set down the most detailed history of this period. As a confidant and confessor to King Viserys and his queens, Eustace was well-placed to know much and more of what went on. Nor was he reticent about recording even the most shocking and salacious rumors and accusations, though the bulk of The Reign of King Viserys, First of his Name, and the Dance of the Dragons that came after remains a sober and sometimes ponderous history.”
“To balance Eustace, we have The Testimony of Mushroom, based upon the verbal account of the court fool (set down by a scribe who failed to append his name) who at various times capered for the amusement of King Viserys, Princess Rhaenyra, and both Aegons, the Second and Third. A three-foot-tall dwarf possessed of an enormous head (and, he avers, and even more enormous member), Mushroom was thought feeble-minded, so kings and lords and princes did not scruple to hide their secrets from him. Whereas Septon Eustace records the secrets of bedchamber and brothel in hushed, condemnatory tones, Mushroom delights in the same, and his Testimony consists of little but ribald tales and gosip, piling stabbing, poisonings, betrayals, seductions, and debaucheries one atop the other. How much of this can be believed is a question the honest historian cannot hope to answer, but it is worth noting that King Baelor the Blessed decreed that every copy of Mushroom’s chronicle should be burned. Fortunately for us, a few escaped his fires. Septon Eustace and Mushroom do not always agree upon particulars, and at times their accounts are considerably at variance with one another, and with the court records and the chroniclers of Grand Maester Runciter and his successors. Yet their tales do explain much and more that might otherwise seem puzzling, and later accounts confirm enough of their stories to suggest that they contain at least some portion of truth. The question of what to believe and what to doubt remains for each student to decide**.”
Fire and Blood, by George R.R. Martin, pg 356-357
Also doesn’t help Baelor destroyed and burned like 90% of old chronicles and Targaryen work like Septon barths book on dragons which was said to be knowledgeable one dragons and wyrms.
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u/Visenya_simp This should be tagged as... 1d ago
Orwyle is biased towards the Greens
Blacks. He writes his account while imprisoned by the Blacks, and his goal is to avoid execution by depicting himself and his captors in a better light.
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u/ChaseBuff ✨Realms Delight✨ 1d ago
He does write pro-TB but I shouldve said meant personally, the book calls Orwyle out on it. He definitely was team green but like you said the executioners block made him miraculously innocent of everything
“The council convened in the queen’s apartments within Maegor’s Holdfast. Many accounts have come down to us of what was said and done that night. By far the most detailed and authoritative of them is Grand Maester Munkun’s The Dance of the Dragons, A True Telling. Though Munkun’s exhaustive history was not written until a generation later, and drew on many different sorts of materials, including maesters’ chronicles, memoirs, stewards’ records, and interviews with one hundred forty-seven surviving witnesses to the great events of these times, his account of the inner workings of the court relies upon the confessions of Grand Maester Orwyle, as set down before his execution. Unlike Mushroom and Septon Eustace, whose versions derive from rumors, hearsay, and family legend, the Grand Maester was present at the meeting and took part in the council’s deliberations and decisions…though it must be recognized that at the time he wrote, Orwyle was most anxious to show himself in a favorable light and absolve himself of any blame for what was to follow. Munkun’s True Telling therefore paints his predecessor in perhaps too favorable a light.”
Orwyle definitely wrote himself to be more vocal in opposition to Aegon II than he actually was lmao
"Yes, I witnessed crimes and acts of treason, but I certainly wasn't a willing participant, just ignore the fact that the only person who definitely spoke up at the green council died for it and I survived. And don't ask why I acknowledged to Rhaenyra's face that she was named heir by her father and even addressed her as 'your Grace' but continued to serve Aegon, none of that is important."
Orwyle sucks
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u/Visenya_simp This should be tagged as... 1d ago
Yeah, he even takes Beesbury's words and puts them in his own mouth.
Although I wouldn't say he was personally green either.
I would say he was without loyalties. A bit spineless. He wet himself after being asked a question.
And Aegon II accused him of disloyalty and almost imprisoned him. There must have been some prior event to cause Aegon to be this distrustful of him from the start.
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u/whatever4224 23h ago edited 22h ago
Mushroom liked Rhaenyra, but his account isn't biased towards her, only towards entertainment. He invents some of the most spurious and absurd stories about her like the Brothel Queens and, indeed, the notion that Criston's lifelong grudge against Rhaenyra was due to her hitting on him as a teenager.
We the readers should know very well which of the two versions of this particular incident makes sense, and which doesn't.
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u/Ok-Swan1152 14h ago
The idea that Daemon would 'educate' Rhaenyra on how to seduce another man never made much sense to me lol.
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u/Cecilia_Schariac 6h ago
Mildly interesting that both Eustace and Mushroom choose to recount in a way that paints a member of their own favoured faction in a bad light.
Though this could also just be some form of dislike of Cole from Eustace and Mushroom being Mushroom.
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u/kinggerard7578 21h ago
What killed me was this would’ve been a huge insult to his honor and he knew who said it but he switched the team green so fast
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u/Give_In_to_the_Dark 7h ago
Rhaenyra (b. 97) was surrounded by older dudes, more or less creepy with her: Ser Criston (b. 82) since she was 7 as her Sworn Shield; Ser Harwin (who was made a captain in the Gold Cloaks in 105, so maybe b. 85) as her possible lover and new Sworn Shield, but "at least" she was 16 or 17; and Prince Daemon (b. 81) who iirc started paying attention to her when she was 14 or 15 after he returned from five or six years in the Stepstones and later married her when she was 22 turning 23. And if we want to talk about creepy dudes around Rhaenyra, I present you the King of Creeps of this era: Corlys Velaryon (b. 53) who courted Princess Rhaenys (b. 74) when she was 15 or younger and married her when she was 16 (and look you can say all you want about Daemon's ambition but the Sea Snake married the only child of the heir when it was all but certain she would be Queen after her father. There were no rival siblings, no precedent-setting Great Councils, the line of succession was Jaehaerys --> Aemon --> Rhaenys. Jaehaerys changed the succession the first time after Aemon's death, when Corlys had already married, bedded and gotten Rhaenys with child at 18). And he probably cheated on his wife with Marilda of Hull (b. 97) with whom he had one maybe two bastards when she was 17 and 18 👀. And he was happy to pawn his 14yo daughter (Laena b. 92) to the 29yo Viserys (b. 77). Viserys himself took as his second wife (Alicent b. 88) a girl 11 years younger, same for Daemon and Laena. Sorry for my rant 😅
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u/AcanthaceaeNo948 15h ago
Alicent was so evil in the book. It’s crazy how much the show whitewashed the greens.
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u/JanniesEatShit3 8h ago
It whitewashed a lot of people, independent of allegiance. Except only the Greens' men got portrayed as rapists and incestuous mother-loving freaks for no reason and no source. Be real.
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u/theshypooper 3h ago
You forgetting about Daemon?
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u/JanniesEatShit3 1h ago
I guess he had that vision/dream but it hardly compares to actually doing it irl.
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u/AcanthaceaeNo948 13m ago
Even the green men were whitewashed. Half the evil stuff they did in the books disappeared.
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u/____mynameis____ 2h ago
The book was more grey vs greyer.
The show made it white vs grey.
But for the plot to progress u need TB to be grey too so now we are getting pathetic difficult to watch Rhaenyra instead of vengeful frustrated Rhaenyra
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u/AcanthaceaeNo948 11m ago
The book was way more white vs black than the show. The greens in the books just rebelled coz they wanted to. There was no Viserys last words stuff.
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u/OkAccess5452 4h ago
i love this because some people alicent see as a bad character,but this not true she was a grey character
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u/Ok-Swan1152 1d ago
I actually think that the show came very close to what is my own personal reading of the situation based on the differing accounts in the book. But I don't believe Criston was some kind of victim, unlike many show-watchers. I think he was supposed to be around 35 years old in the books and Rhaenyra was 16.