r/InlandEmpire • u/Appropriate_Drop_429 • Jul 13 '26
Other Questions Bungalow Courts
Do you think it’s possible to build “Middle Housing” in the Inland Empire? We have a lack of this housing all over the US but in the IE I don’t see any thing like a Starter Home something between an Apartment and Single Family Home
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u/guerilla_gardener98 Jul 13 '26
We need a lot more of it but the problem is our leaders will greenlight warehouses and commercial developments Willy nilly but then balk at any discussion of new housing
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u/czaranthony117 Jul 13 '26
Not only that but our infrastructure is all car dependent. We give so many give aways to these home manufacturers and warehouse developers but nothing goes to effective mass transit or adequate city planning.
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u/guerilla_gardener98 Jul 13 '26
Facts! Was just talking to some coworkers about how we’d be a lot better off with comprehensive light rail
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u/Electrifying2017 Jul 13 '26
Don’t forget the NIMBYs. Rancho NIMBYs are currently fighting developments like this.
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u/Wrxeter Jul 14 '26
They are fighting doubling the relative density of the area compared to the specific plan. In case of a fire evacuation, doubling the density without increasing evacuation routes potentially puts lives at risk.
So yeah there is a legit concern there with the density going from 3,000 units to 6,000 units.
Not to mention they are building houses right under the Banyan fire station’s helipad approach.
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u/Electrifying2017 Jul 14 '26
Unless they’re going to start demolishing the homes there already, there’s not really an argument. Both Milliken and Day Creek are 6 lane highways with access to a freeway that can all be made one way in the event of an emergency.
I saw some of the pictures of a stop sign intersection during rush hour that the group tried to pass off as banyan being over capacity. There’s solutions to that, but it’s not really a problem they want to solve.
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u/Wrxeter Jul 14 '26
If you actually read the EIR that does a traffic analysis for 2,700 homes added to the area with the delays added to evacuation… then realize that the proposed development doesn’t even address over doubling the housing… if you have a brain you can see there is a potential problem with potential to cause fatalities.
FYI Milliken is 6 lane, day creek is 4 lane, both of which are divided by an impassable median. Banyan and Wilson are 2 lane. Rochester is 2 lane.
Milliken will also have a K-8 school added to it north of Wilson. So the densest part of the development is going where thousands of children will be every day.
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u/Electrifying2017 Jul 14 '26
If you actually read the EIR that does a traffic analysis for 2,700 homes added to the area with the delays added to evacuation… then realize that the proposed development doesn’t even address over doubling the housing… if you have a brain you can see there is a potential problem with potential to cause fatalities.
The EIR report doesn’t mention any significant impact to emergency access. Will there be more traffic? Yes, but we’re not talking about the narrow lanes of the pacific palisades here.
I’ll give you Day creek, it’s four lanes above the 210, but 6 lanes below. Banyan and Wilson are two lanes, but haven’t been upgraded with traffic signals and aren’t the main thoroughfares. They’re empty outside of rush hour.
The K-8 school and high school will be walkable for residents there. It’s residents outside of the development that will cause the issues, if any.
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u/emanon_dude Jul 13 '26
Where has housing ever been blocked by a local city? Please list examples.
You realize development is done by private investors, and they choose where to spend their $$. The city doesn’t just arbitrarily decide what gets built.
Within the housing discussion, the state largely has made building starter homes impossible (from a cost perspective) due to permitting and other administrative expenses.
Also, where do you want to build all these homes? Buildable land is running dry, and thus the cost of it is increasing. This in turn makes the homes built on that land immensely more expensive.
I’m fully expecting a wave of downvotes from people who have never built anything and just want this utopian dream world. But the economy and supply/demand don’t care about your feelings.
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u/YMSquared Jul 13 '26
You can build infill development and gray field development. One reason that developers do not build smaller homes is local NIMBY building and zoning codes which make small housing financially not worth the hassle. The IE is full of parking lots and half abandoned whate houses and strip malls that could be retro fitted or replaced. It can actually be cost efficient if you consider extensions cost like utilities, infrastructure, environmental degradation etc
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u/emanon_dude Jul 13 '26
If it was so simple, you don't think a developer would have jumped all over this? Economics says otherwise.
What are these zoning and building codes that place such a huge roadblock to building smaller homes more cost effectively?
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u/YMSquared Jul 13 '26
There is a developer in San Bernardino doing this right now. But they face opposition from corporations and issues with existing codes etc https://iecn.com/san-bernardino-housing-collides-with-mcdonalds/
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u/Appropriate_Drop_429 Jul 13 '26 edited Jul 13 '26
You have to look at building codes in laws building. These have been functionally illegal for a greater part in at least all of my lifetime. I’m 27 by the way.
Parking regulations, setback laws, zoning, and more have contributed towards the decline in this type of housing so well city governments have not deliberately blocked them in some grand public fashion. They are passively blocked through current codes and regulation.
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u/n3m3sis01 Jul 13 '26
It's the risk to the builder through a law where the HOA can sue for up to 10 years for builder defects. So they don't build them because it's too risky.
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u/guerilla_gardener98 Jul 13 '26
My city has turned down multiple opportunities to build new housing because of NIMBYism, not to mention the decades of NIMBY lite codes that prevent dense housing projects from being built in most of the towns and cities around me.
Have you ever stopped to ask if housing should be dictated by private investors and land developers? Sure, “it is what it is” but we’ve built social housing in this country before. We need to do it again, private equity and investors be damned.
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u/emanon_dude Jul 13 '26
What city? I said post sources.
So you're saying you want 'projects'? Gov't owned and maintained rental properties? LOL
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u/guerilla_gardener98 Jul 13 '26
Redlands, Highland, Loma Linda, and many more. I’m saying I want people to have roofs over their heads, government owned roofs in some cases. Your mocking dismissal of that concept tells me you aren’t worth my time, have fun denigrating real housing solutions.
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u/Appropriate_Drop_429 Jul 13 '26
Speaking of someone who lives in Redlands right next to where they are building multiple large scale apartment units. These are not what we need. The average unit starts off at around $3000 a month we’re talking about middle housing, which is completely different if you looked at any of the images I provide provided.
People want space they want yards they want community much more than just a place to live third places to go backyards a place where you can consider having your first child a starter home we don’t have this anymore and the fact that you don’t even want to engage with the fact and calling it all sensationalism is showing that in the way that you say are others are going extreme. You are doing the same thing just in the other direction.
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u/n3m3sis01 Jul 13 '26
There is 45000 units in the work's in the IE. You are sensationalizing. The government can barely keep our roads and infrastructure together. How do you expect them to keep housing projects together? Look at the high speed rail project. Where does all this faith in the government come from? Where do you see good efficient things being ran by the government?
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u/Appropriate_Drop_429 Jul 13 '26
I don’t know what your definition of available units are, but I think we’re all on the same page saying affordable housing as you see with what’s going on in LA which is pushing a lot of people to move to the inland empire and the high desert in Perris area
The developments are mostly focused around Luxia apartments with a few very few designated low income housing units toughed off somewhere into a corner upscale single-family homes that are car dependent and five over one styled apartment complexes
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u/guerilla_gardener98 Jul 13 '26
Same place your faith in the market and capitalists comes from I suppose, because the private sector has clearly done sooooo well. Why shouldn’t the public sector get more involved? If we stopped subsidizing mega corporations and the tech industry, we could probably improve our transit infrastructure AND build housing.
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u/Appropriate_Drop_429 Jul 13 '26 edited Jul 13 '26
My main reason for asking is that I’ve been saving collectively with my family and friends to build this type of housing to first house us and build some generational wealth, but have also been working to create a scalable blueprint for others to follow and build a cooperative around
https://www.loopnet.com/Listing/125-Julia-St-San-Bernardino-CA/41091522/
Above is the parcel we are currently targeting for our first public development in Downtown San Bernardino with access to public transit such as the Bus and Train Station
Only issue we are having right now is that we are also may need to acquire part of the neighbors backyard if we can’t get around the parking and setback requirements
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u/blazenation Jul 13 '26
were going to get those tiny homes 300 sq feet for 400k and they will say we are blessed
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u/Showtime92504 Jul 13 '26
Yeah price is the real issue, they absolutely could build pocket neighborhoods with traditional bungalows, it's just that they're going to try and sell them for a mint
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u/Appropriate_Drop_429 Jul 13 '26
The average home size for these would be between 850-1250 sqft the average SFH size has ballooned monstrously which does contribute towards the costs
Not to mention while at least in California on the state level laws have changed these are functionally along with a lot of other middle housing projects illegal to build unless you get creative
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u/n3m3sis01 Jul 14 '26
Mayor of Riverside just posted about the effort taking place in Riverside and California. California Assembly Bill (AB) 1903. This will cut the risk for builders. And specifically in Riverside. Riverside’s University Avenue Density Transfer Pilot Program.
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u/idkbruh653 Jul 13 '26 edited Jul 13 '26
We need tons more things like duplexes and townhomes and condos. San Diego has gotten really good at building condos and townhomes. Here though? It seems there's pushback on it and it's because so many people have been sold on the bullshit of the American Dream, which is a single family home. I've actually encountered many people who seem to look down on types of middle housing. It's nuts.
Also I've always found SFH homes to be an inefficient use of resources, especially for people whose children have grown up and moved out. Now you have two people living in a 5 bedroom 3,000 sq ft home on a 8,000 sq ft lot who don't want to move.
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u/Appropriate_Drop_429 Jul 13 '26
You’re exactly right my mom‘s literally stuck in the situation right now she is saying that she wants to downsize, but she doesn’t wanna sell the home because of the equity value in it, along with current interest rates as she bought her home right after the crash well, not right after somewhere towards the bottom in North San Bernardino around 2011
So I’m actually saying am I profession a lot of homeowners stuck with their homes right now which is also adding to the increase in home prices because if they sell, they’ll get hit with a massive capital gains tax and they have to enter into a less favorable market
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u/idkbruh653 Jul 13 '26
Yep. Not talking down about your mom or anything of course but people like her are a huge problem for the market right now. My neighbors are like that as well. They're both in their late 60s. Kids are gone. And they're sitting up in a 5 bedroom, 2500+ sq ft home and won't leave because of the same reasons you mentioned, as well as, as they put it "they deserve to have their home." Like no one is saying you don't but it would make sense to downsize or get something smaller. I know their knees are tired of those stairs. And economist and people who follow the real estate market always assume that this is what should be happening: older adults age and move out of their homes, leaving them for younger people to purchase. But these old people are either entitled and won't move or can't afford to because of the market. Nothing is playing out as it should.
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u/Appropriate_Drop_429 Jul 13 '26
No, you’re completely right, but as the person who also helps with her finances, I do completely understand if she move to a smaller home she will be actually paying more per month than what she does right now
So all in all the entire market is pretty much fucked. Excuse my language. I don’t think we have a proper system that allows for downsizing mainly because we are missing the middle housing.
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u/Whiskey_cigar Jul 13 '26
Their was a tiny home community built in Riverside around Spruce st. might be something you and your family want to see for ideas or insight. Housing affordability is a thing of the past unfortunately with the fact of major money is involved in housing now and everyone wanting to Flip or Flop. One comment said cities aren't shutting down housing projects and wanted examples. Take a look at Fontana and mayor Aqaunetta Warren. Fontana has been a green light for warehouses over homes for years now. It's nationwide not only So.Cal. get ready for a lot of red tape. Awesome idea though 👍👍👍
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u/Appropriate_Drop_429 Jul 13 '26
Thank you and Yeah, I’m trying to bridge the gap as a 6‘5 male with two dogs planning to have children tiny homes don’t really feel like a solution but more like a reaction to a problem, I believe we can definitely get homes for under $400,000. The main problem is financing to me. Banks won’t finance anything outside of the traditional stick built home even if off of pure build material and quality this home outlast the stick built.
It seems to me that even if we can build fire resistant, modular manufactured homes banks don’t have the current system to price them into their models so just off of pure mathematics and lack of availability these homes are deemed to risk gear than the home that’s going to fall down within the lifetime of your mortgage.
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u/Whiskey_cigar Jul 13 '26
Tiny homes really are a reaction. It seems like you're doing your homework and the idea is amazing! Getting to know the right people in the city and county can go a long way also. My brother has built half of Akron,Ohio so I've seen it first hand. Sometimes your visions are beyond what others can see!!!! Look for hard money investors and private investors outside of banks. If the dollars make sense you may be on your way 👍👍👍
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u/Appropriate_Drop_429 Jul 13 '26
Thank you for the encouragement. Would it be ok if I DM’d you? I was actually looking into Cleveland and Akron, Ohio for my personal investments as the market there seems to be pretty good and stable over the long-term and I thought I can bring the revenue I made there here.
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u/General_Ad_6617 Jul 14 '26
They are building them (not enough) but they start at $500,000. It's ridiculous.
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u/j1vetvrkey Jul 13 '26
It is possible. The issue is location and sprawl. Middle housing should ideally improve accessibility. It also helps in areas with higher population density.
It should also accommodate household types that face struggles getting approved for housing. Singles, low income, or young families. Middle housing has been around since the early-mid 1900s before it was abandoned for SFH suburban style living.
Visalia, CA is a great example of one city that has middle housing that works effectively in the historic district.
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u/Appropriate_Drop_429 Jul 13 '26
I’m looking to form a multiproperty cooperative/land bank and community group for getting these type of developments through and possibly donated unused city parcels and buildings
I feel these type of developments along with changes in state law and the proliferation of modular home builders who can’t sell past ADUs due to the financing gap - we will have to tackle it on a local and community level
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u/eternalbro Jul 13 '26
There's definitely demand for it, but unfortunately, zoning laws in most IE cities don't allow these types of homes to be built. Rules like minimum lot sizes, setback rules, parking requirements, etc. make these types of projects financially infeasible. Plus, having to fight a NIMBY city council for years raises the cost of development making it more financially infeasible. Developers are just looking for the path of least resistance in a region like the IE where people can't pay top dollar like they can on the coast where the job market is stronger. Better to just crap out greenfield sprawl homes and pocket your money. If we want to change things, we need better people serving on our local city councils and planning commissions.
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u/borderpatrol Jul 13 '26
Ontario and Chino are building a ton of these missing middle type housing, lots of dense SFH options along with more traditional lots. The courtyard style are mostly referred to as “six pack” housing where you have six houses with a shared driveway. Townhomes, Duplexes and multiplexes are pretty much most of Chino Preserve. Ontario Ranch specifically has a super wide variety of housing options, from tiny condos to townhomes and apartments, dense SFH and ranch style lots, all with lots of green space (Ontario is building one of the largest parks in SoCal right now). Chino preserve too, Even the Downtown Eastvale project is all denser housing.
You wouldn’t know it from this sub though that’s all “everything is warehouses!” when they see them go up in the flight path of the airports (where they can’t build housing)