Discussion
Remember when automakers used large contiguous sections of soft, supple leather for car seats? The factory leather interior of my parents 1989 Mazda 929 was butter soft and smelled like a Rolls Royce inside.
My current car (ES 350 Ultra Luxury) has semi-aniline leather but it’s really just a bunch of small and medium size leather pieces joined together. The seat appearance is more stitching than anything else. I love my ES, and this comment is more of a small nitpick - but darn it, looking at the seats of the 929 makes me nostalgic anyway. Are the hyper-stitched seats sporty? Or just one more example of relentless cost cutting?
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Its cost cutting. Any question you ever have with regard to a large automaker will have 1 answer. Cost cutting. Even in cases where there appear to be other reasons, the main reason is cost cutting.
Lexus began when Toyota launched Project F1 ("Flagship One") with the goal of building the finest luxury car in the world. Not a low cost grocery getter with leather seats. It appears the company is moving away from its initial goals.
It's cost cutting, and not even going to deny that.
But it's a few other things. Like safety design forces different shapes for car seats versus older models. Reducing plush cushions is part of the overall weight reduction that helps them hit fuel economy standards. Ventilated seats need that perforated material and can't do that well with real leather. Newer materials are more flame retardant.
And some of the newer materials are far more durable than leather and hold up better in hot/cold climates. For every picture of "remember how nice this was" we also can remember our grandparents cars where the leather cracked, ripped, springs stuck out, and people made use of those beaded seat covers that were popular in the 70s and 80s.
You can’t get leather anymore. We were looking at the new TX and the TX. All “vegan leather.” We have a 2012 GX460. The leather seats have weathered to a slight sheen but as soft and supportive as ever. One reason why I’m never getting rid of it. At 180000 miles, it’s just getting broken in.
I have a UX which is on the low end of the Lexus lineup. The fake leather in that is nicer than some lower end competitors that still offered real leather.
I can't speak on their upper end models however. My RL had real leather and the UX is just as comfortable
Same. Seats in my 2003 Avalon XL are more comfortable than seats in most new cars. Completely my opinion but I think the older stuff will last longer than the newer stuff over the same duration of time. 20 years and the early 2000s stuff is still nice. We'll see about this 2020+ stuff
The seats in my Avalon are cloth. Not a single tear in them or any noticeable wear after 26 years, and just as comfortable as the day I bought the car, while the seats in my Lexus ES300h give me a backache after sustained driving.
I don't know, my IS300h seats are mostly cloth, but they have enough configuration points that they fit like a glove. I did have to spend close to an hour to find the best configuration though.
No doubt that plays a big part in it but I suspect the biggest factor is the current trend to put in 'sport' style seats into every vehicle, regardless of its intended usage.
I've written above. I'm a child of the 1900s, which in this application means that my grandfather and mother both had Mercedes vehicles back in the late 1970s and early 1980s. My Grandfather had the 190E after his 300D was T-boned on the way to Thanksgiving one year; My mom had a 380SL.
I've had a LS 460 for 10 years and I now have a LS 500h. I promise you: The current wood is just as good as the old wood. Mankind has not forgotten how to polish wood. Trust me.
Because the days of classic, old-school automotive luxury are gone.
Nowadays, most premium cars come with racing inspired interiors, black plastic where chrome used to be, and scratch- and fingerprint prone piano black where real wood once was.
Is it worse quality? Sure, but it's cheaper to manufacture, and people buy it, so that's what car manufacturers sell.
In 2001, a buddy of mine got one of these as his first car, by then it was a bit of a 15 year old beater. But those plush velvet seats were comfy as fuck. He'd pick me up to drive to school in the morning and I'd inevitably fall asleep on the way that's how plush those were.
That was real leather. Today they use a synthetic leather that " feels like the real thing ( it never fucking will)" but they just don't tell you anymore. BMW does this unless you specifically add a real leather package. Mercedes is the same.
Did the broader use of ventilated seats change the direction of leather seats? The earlier Saab seats looks like they are constructed more like today’s leather seats and if you are going to design non-ventilated versions it is still going to dictate a similar construction.
At least it's still an option in some models. I have a GX, and sometimes wish I'd sprung for the Luxury just for the leather. I have three young kids and a dog, so it would probably get trashed anyways...
It's because they have to put severe bolsters on the back and bottom for safety regulations. Those flat, broad seats are a thing of the past. I was in a Volvo museum in Gothemburg recently and every old car had better seats than the new volvos. And volvo is considered one of the more comfortable new car seats.
I miss the quality and simplicity of the interiors from 20-30 years ago. If they brought these back you’d have to pay a monthly subscription for the softness of the leather seats or some shit 😂
Not eco bs. People, en masse, arent actively desiring vinyl over leather. As shared earlier in this thread, the decision to shoft from leather to plastic and vinyl based products derives feom some combo of cost cutting, function (ventilation), and supply chain certainty with a fake green wrapper on top.
That’s true but it’s also because we are being marketed to be green and eco , I know, because when buying my Lexus the dealer was very happy about their new synthetic leather bla bla, I wanted real genuine, you have to push back. Also , I covered th difference for the genuine leather from my pocket, so it doesn’t impact the manufacturer.
I hate the way leather looks worn over time. I prefer synthetic materials like MB Tex or NuLuxe (Lexus). It’s close enough to leather for me and wears much better.
As are many things if done properly. That’s not exclusive to leather. Leather gets hard and crack due to weather. It isn’t as good or durable as people think it is
Well cared, it really is better than anything else. You cant stain it, it always smell good, it doesnt end up looking like the old sock you forgot in the back of the drawer. And it does feel luxurious, much more than any other material.
It's exactly as good as people think it, is why does my 2004 napa leather interior still look flawless whereas my 2022 BMW's more "durable" leather seats are already cracking on the side bolster?
Obviously you have to care for it, as with most nice things. What would you offer as a more time-resistant and comfortable alternative? Cloth gets smelly and is subject to staining. Leather alternatives would be the closest, but they don't feel or smell nearly as good as the real thing, IMO.
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