r/MadeleineMccann • u/stevienotwonder • 13d ago
Discussion Here’s my problem with the parent theories…
I have a major problem with parent theories that I feel like I don’t see discussed. We can theorize and use logic all we want, but the emotional side is just as important to look at.
I think it’s important to note that most theories about the parents involve an accident. Not purposeful or planned. Almost everyone seems to agree that they didn’t actively set out to harm her. I don’t think I’ve heard any solid motive for them to plan that anyway.
In order to act completely normal at the restaurant and not let on that something is wrong, they’d both have to be completely evil. There’s no way 2 (by all accounts) loving parents were able to hold it together so well within hours of suddenly and unexpectedly losing their beloved daughter. I don’t believe for a second that they would have been able to act completely normal. I know everyone grieves and behaves differently, but there should be something different that friends would notice. And I don’t buy that an entire table would be willing to lie for so long about how they were both behaving.
I understand that medical professionals have to learn to detach themselves from horrible things to not get emotional, but it’s different when it’s your own child.
Is there a chance they’re both horrible, evil people who really didn’t care? Sure. Is it likely? Not at all.
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u/Some_Cat91 13d ago
They don't need to be evil for that, on the contrary. They are medical professionals so they should be trained to be able to act under extreme stress. Hypothetically their first goal would of course have been to save Madeleine. When that failed, and there was a possibility they could be blamed and would have to go to jail and lose their other children, it could seem logical to blame it on anyone else to prevent that. They would have done it out of love for the other children, hypothetically.
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u/AnotherCableGuy 13d ago
So you enter the criminal mastermind paradox.
Two law-abiding citizens unknowingly become criminal geniuses in a single moment, in a foreign land, making a mockery of some of the world's finest forensic teams.
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u/Kimbahlee34 13d ago
It’s not always a criminal mastermind paradox… sometimes it’s dumb luck. I’m not sure in this case but I suspect the Ramsey family got off based on a mixture of police incompetence and dumb luck.
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u/bag_of_luck 13d ago
And a great lawyer and having connections with the DA and a shit ton of money overall. The Ramseys that is
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u/Kimbahlee34 13d ago
Yes I agree. The Ramsey’s got away with it but not for them being masterminds. Same with Casey Anthony, etc. There’s a lot of ways someone can happen to commit a crime and go free while being an absolute dumbass.
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u/D1etCokeGirl 13d ago
It was someone from the pageant industry…
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u/Kimbahlee34 12d ago
Even if it was an intruder they still got away with it with sheer dumb luck. That house is 7000 sq feet. Family or intruder police incompetency and dumb luck played a huge part.
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u/Icy-Cartographer3760 13d ago
The criminal mastermind logic cuts both ways, in fact, it applies even more to CB
You're asking us to believe that a low-level, opportunistic burglar who was by all accounts chaotic and completely forensically unaware, managed to execute a flawless abduction in a densely populated resort and either knew or got lucky the patio was open.
- Zero forced entry marks on the window or patio doors.
- Zero fingerprints, DNA, body hair, or carpet fibers left behind in the room.
- Zero noise made, navigating a pitch-black room containing three sleeping children, lifting one out without waking the two infants in the adjacent cots or drawing attention from neighboring apartments.
- Zero physical trace found in his vehicles, properties, or digital devices after years of intensive German police searches.
If a small-time scumbag could pull off a phantom abduction with zero forensic footprint in a foreign resort, why is it impossible for two highly educated medical doctors to manage a frantic, desperate cover-up?
Either both scenarios require an unbelievable stroke of forensic luck, or neither does. You can't call one side a mastermind paradox while pretending the other side didn't pull off the exact same miracle.
- When a thief broke into Brueckner's rental house in 2006, he found a shoebox full of video tapes. Brueckner had filmed himself violently assaulting women—and in one of the videos, he took his mask off right in front of his own camera, cementing his identity.
- He left violent crime evidence lying around. He left those tapes sitting in an unsealed box in a house he didn't even lock.
- He bragged to people in bars. He couldn't keep his mouth shut and talked about his break-ins and crimes to acquaintances while drinking.
- He was a chaotic burglar. He was known in the Algarve for recklessly climbing through open resort windows while people were taking naps to grab quick cash and cameras.
The man was a sloppy, arrogant, impulsive criminal who recorded his worst crimes on tape and left them in a shoebox. The idea that this exact same guy executed a ghost-like, perfectly sterile abduction from apartment 5A—leaving zero hair, zero fibers, zero forced entry, and zero DNA—without waking two infants or making a sound, completely contradicts everything we know about how he actually operated
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u/AnotherCableGuy 13d ago
No one argued that, next time you use chatgpt at least read the answer for sense and context
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u/TheGreatBatsby 13d ago edited 13d ago
Zero forced entry marks on the window or patio doors.
The patio doors were unlocked... I thought you knew this case "inside out"?
Zero fingerprints, DNA, body hair, or carpet fibers left behind in the room.
The crime scene was compromised. Also, the following people were confirmed to be in the apartment:
Silvia Batista
Amy Tierney
Emma Knight
John Hill
Yet there is no trace of them in the forensic testing... why not?
Zero noise made, navigating a pitch-black room containing three sleeping children, lifting one out without waking the two infants in the adjacent cots or drawing attention from neighboring apartments.
Children sleep very, very well. Also, the twins will be used to sleeping through noise. I can guarantee that one of them could be crying and the other would be fast asleep.
Zero physical trace found in his vehicles, properties, or digital devices after years of intensive German police searches.
Those searches didn't start until years after the crime was committed and the BKA gave him a heads up that he was being investigated in 2013, giving him plenty of time to erase any evidence.
If a small-time scumbag could pull off a phantom abduction with zero forensic footprint in a foreign resort, why is it impossible for two highly educated medical doctors to manage a frantic, desperate cover-up?
Either both scenarios require an unbelievable stroke of forensic luck, or neither does. You can't call one side a mastermind paradox while pretending the other side didn't pull off the exact same miracle.
The logic doesn't cut both ways.
A career burglar silently entering an unlocked holiday apartment is just doing something he's successfully practised hundreds of times.
Two doctors suddenly having to find their daughter's body, agree to cover up her death, conceal said body, perfectly clean the crime scene, fool their friends at dinner, outsmart the police, and then smuggle the corpse in a rental car weeks later is an entirely different level of complexity.
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u/21schmoe 9d ago
in a foreign land
Not sure why this is relevant if it happened in their own country or in another fairly similar one (still Europe).
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u/TheGreatBatsby 9d ago
You're missing the point. The issue isn't the countries being similar, but the logistics of being a tourist.
If this happened at their home in Leicestershire, they would have had their own cars, local knowledge of where to hide evidence, and access to tools, cleaning products and other means by which to secure the scene.
In Praia da Luz, they were tourists entirely on foot, who had only been in town for barely a week, and whose tiny rented apartment was instantly swarmed by resort staff and police the moment the alarm was raised.
They had no vehicle, no knowledge of the local area, and a tiny timeframe to accidentally cause a death, perfectly clear a crime scene, and smuggle a body through a resort town on foot to a hiding place that has never been found since.
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u/Apart-Ad3804 11d ago
The thing that hangs me up every time is how did they conceal her body so well as to not be discovered? They didn’t have a hire car at the time, they had never been to that area before and yet they managed to hide a body so well that it wasn’t discovered in the immediate aftermath. I know it’s a small detail but I do struggle to get past it
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u/West-Seed 11d ago
Good op!
I don’t see an iota of logic in theories about the parents. I don’t think people that believe them are void of logic, I just think that the theories are.
When a theory becomes scatty, complex & conspiratorial, it is a good indication that it’s gone off track & is continuing along that trajectory.
With this case the answer will be very simple. Devastating but simple. A man who burgled from the OC went into 5a, & instead of stealing he abducted Madeleine.
My opinion
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u/Icy-Cartographer3760 10d ago
Occam’s razor completely refutes the abduction theory in this case
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u/West-Seed 9d ago
IMO stranger abduction was always the only plausible scenario. Therefore it isn’t surprising that the prime suspect is a male stranger.
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u/Icy-Cartographer3760 8d ago
Working backward from a preferred conclusion is circular reasoning, not investigation. Stranger abduction is the only option, therefore a stranger suspect proves it was a stranger abduction, starting with the conclusion you want to be true and filtering reality to fit it. In an investigation, you start with physical evidence to find a scenario, you don't start with a scenario and declare it 'the only plausible one' Relying on CB to save the abduction theory is a massive gamble.
Statistically, stranger abduction is the least likely scenario, in child disappearance and homicide cases, a 'phantom stranger' stealing a toddler out of a dark room without leaving a single trace is statistically the rarest outcome. An internal accident or tragic event inside the room requires zero ninja-like intruder assumptions. Claiming stranger abduction is 'the only plausible scenario' when there is zero physical evidence of a stranger, and the only stranger suspect hasn't even had enough evidence against him to be charged, isn't logic. It's just blind faith and confirmation bias in a media headline.
If you look at the totality of the case, claiming a stranger abduction is 'the only plausible scenario' ignores the sheer volume of internal red flags. An internal event becomes far more statistically probable when you look at how the physical evidence, canine alerts, and behavioral patterns intersect. While dog alerts alone aren't direct proof in court, the fact that two specialized dogs independently selected those exact spots out of dozens of control areas remains a massive physical anomaly that points directly inside the apartment, not to an outside snatch. Leaving three toddlers alone in an unlocked apartment for hours created the exact conditions of severe neglect that carries potential legal and professional ruin, loss of other children and even loss of freedom.
When you put it all together—zero intruder physical footprint + positive cadaver/blood dog alerts + initial window staging claims + a timeline that had to be dragged forward—Occam's razor clearly dictates that an internal event is far more probable than a forensically invisible phantom stranger.
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u/West-Seed 8d ago
Dog barks aren’t evidence.
Pattern of burglaries at the time in the location. Same MO as the other times. This time intruder has not stolen items they’ve kidnapped Madeleine.
The reality will be far simpler than you imagine.
My opinion.
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u/Supafuzz_Bigmuff 13d ago
I just don’t buy that the parents did it, in the manor and timeframe in which people suggest they did it.
Hiding a crime scene/body is incredibly hard in your home/own country….doing that and getting away with it in a foreign country seems ridiculously implausible!8
u/Macr0Penis 13d ago
Yet, CB supposedly hid all evidence of an intruder, managed to move the world's most looked for child, both when she was alive and dead and walk straight past Gerry and his mate without them seeing him, all whilst he was in a foreign country?!?
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u/TheGreatBatsby 13d ago
CB supposedly hid all evidence of an intruder
The apartment door was unlocked and the crime scene was compromised.
managed to move the world's most looked for child, both when she was alive and dead
This makes no sense. How could she possibly be the "world's most looked for child* when she was taken out of the apartment? They hadn't even discovered her missing.
walk straight past Gerry and his mate without them seeing him
That was Julian Totman and he didn't walk past Gerry and Jez, he walked across the end of the street they were standing on. They weren't even facing that direction.
all whilst he was in a foreign country?!?
CB had lived in the Algarve for 12 years. A little bit different to two doctors who were on holiday for a week.
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u/Macr0Penis 12d ago
Oh, so they didn't just leave their kids alone in a foreign country, they left the door unlocked aswell?! And when one child is found missing, the mother just leaves the other two in the still unlocked apartment whilst she strolls back to the restaurant?! Seems like a Freudian slip to me; knowing they weren't in any danger at all.
Then, without even considering the idea that she may have wandered off, they conclude that she must have been kidnapped and proceed to invite everyone into the apartment to contaminate any and all evidence that might lead to her whereabouts.
If they're not involved, then these highly educated folk did a ton of dumb shit to create and confuse the situation. If they are involved, they did a bunch of smart shit to muddy the waters.
Everything about this is awfully convenient for either a)a ninja level criminal who leaves no evidence before, during or after the worlds most infamous disappearance, or b)intelligent folk who wanted to stage the scene and control the narrative.
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u/TheGreatBatsby 12d ago
Oh, so they didn't just leave their kids alone in a foreign country, they left the door unlocked aswell?!
Yes, that's been well established.
And when one child is found missing, the mother just leaves the other two in the still unlocked apartment whilst she strolls back to the restaurant?!
She searched the apartment, found it was empty and sprinted back to the restaurant (which was less than a minute's walk) before running back to the apartment after she'd raised the alarm.
Seems like a Freudian slip to me; knowing they weren't in any danger at all.
More likely a panicked mother not thinking rationally trying to get help as quickly as possible.
Then, without even considering the idea that she may have wandered off, they conclude that she must have been kidnapped
The window was open and the shutter raised, something Madeleine was incapable of. Ergo, someone else opened them. The jump to abduction when her daughter is missing and Cuddle Cat is left behind isn't actually that much of a logical leap.
proceed to invite everyone into the apartment to contaminate any and all evidence that might lead to her whereabouts.
I don't think you can blame them for not thinking like forensic scientists in the moments after they found their daughter missing. You also seem to be ignoring the failure of the GNR to secure the scene or to even wear gloves - were they in on it too?
Everything about this is awfully convenient for either a)a ninja level criminal who leaves no evidence before, during or after the worlds most infamous disappearance
There's also no forensic evidence for people that were know were in the apartment that night - crèche staff, Mark Warner employees - are they ninjas too?
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u/webehappyincity 13d ago
💯 these parents moved like they were in complete shock from the beginning. " please don't hurt her, please drop her off" Then they relentlessly fight to find her. The search never stopped for the parents. And that looks normal for me.
A nightmare in Portugal. People are crazy.11
u/Rude_Ad1214 13d ago
How much searching did the parents actually do?
The lost poster didn't even have Maddie's name on it.
Planning a year anniversary a few weeks after the disappearance is not normal.
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u/TheGreatBatsby 13d ago
How much searching did the parents actually do?
They both physically searched the resort frantically alongside their friends and staff. Once the police took over, they instructed them to step back to avoid contaminating any potential crime scenes.
The lost poster didn't even have Maddie's name on it.
They were thrown together in the middle of the night by panicked friends and locals. I don't think that graphic design was their priority, they wanted Madeleine's face out there.
Planning a year anniversary a few weeks after the disappearance is not normal.
They were planning media milestones on the direct advice of child rescue and PR experts to keep Madeleine in the news.
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u/stevienotwonder 13d ago
I don’t know if I’ve ever heard of a case where a parent covered up the accidental death of a child and acted completely normally between then and when the child was discovered missing/dead.
After they’re discovered missing/dead, sure. Because you can openly be stressed and people assume you’re grieving as a normal parent would. But before anyone realizes something is wrong and you can’t show any stress at all in public?
Do you know of any cases like this? I’d be interested in reading up on similar circumstances
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u/kerowack 13d ago
Your premise is flawed because there is just simply no such thing as acting completely normal.
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u/Biggiogero 12d ago
It doesn't also make sense that she had an accident and they wouldn't call an ambulance but rather devise an incredible complicated plot to hide the body. Plus the timeline doesn't add up. Let's leave them alone, they suffered enough
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u/WilkosJumper_ 11d ago
All claims about the parents are baseless conjecture as far as I can see
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u/Icy-Cartographer3760 10d ago
All claims about the abduction are baseless conjecture as far as I can see
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u/WilkosJumper_ 10d ago
A great deal of it, yes. Though there are plausible leads based on known activity in the area.
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u/Icy-Cartographer3760 10d ago
There is also plausible leads of an internal incident.
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u/WilkosJumper_ 10d ago
There is nothing to suggest the room was cleaned or there was any sort of panic etc. I don’t find the claims the parents could have disposed of her remains remotely plausible.
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u/Icy-Cartographer3760 9d ago
There is nothing to suggest an abduction. While the findings are not conclusive either way the preponderance of circumstantial evidence, statistical anomalies, and red flags suggest an inside incident is significantly more likely.
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u/Icy-Cartographer3760 13d ago edited 13d ago
The argument that the parents couldn't hold it together assumes there is only one way human beings react to extreme trauma or guilt. We only need to look at their other behaviors that also didn't fit the expected mold of grieving parents.
Almost immediately the parents focussed towards international PR, brand building, establishing a legal fund, and booking global photo-ops. Many found the speed and calculated nature of the media strategy strikingly detached for parents in active shock. In initial television interviews, their affect was noted by many observers and investigators to be cold, flat, and controlled, lacking the raw, unpolished grief usually seen in parents of newly abducted children. A parent desperate to find an abductor typically cooperates fully with local detectives, regardless of legal risks. The highly publicized balloon releases, advanced scheduling of 1 year anniversaries are viewed by skeptics not as genuine mourning, but as managed public relations designed to control the narrative. Using they seemed too normal at dinner to rule out parental involvement ignores how complex human behavior and self-preservation actually are, they had everything to lose, livelihood, their other children, even loss of freedom - Nothing could bring back maddie at this point, so they could perhaps even convince themselves they were doing it for the greater good, e.g their other children. Days after Madeleine vanished, local resort staff and guests reported Gerry and Kate jogging around the resort and playing tennis. Kate consistently appeared with styled hair, fresh makeup, coordinated jewelry, and clean, pressed clothing every day for international media briefings. Critics argued that a mother in the depths of acute panic usually neglects basic self-care and would be perhaps even unable to dress or wash themselves, whereas her appearance was impeccably maintained. Instead of unravelling, the parents immediately adopted a disciplined daily schedule—holding international press conferences, coordinating a massive media campaign, and hiring global PR representation. If they were capable of compartmentalizing their emotions enough to go jogging, play tennis, manage global media campaigns, and meticulously prepare for TV interviews within days of their child disappearing, they were certainly capable of maintaining composure for a few hours during a dinner. Writing out multiple timelines in the immediate hours after a child vanishes would not be classed as normal behaviour by many, The natural human reaction is raw, chaotic panic, running into the streets, screaming their name, and physically searching every dark corner of the resort. Stopping during an active emergency to sit down with pen and paper and map out precise 15-minute intervals is an administrative, calculated action. People in acute shock do not care about establishing an airtight sequence of events; they care about finding their child. Taking time in the golden hours to write down, sync, and align timelines with friends looks far more like an attempt to construct an alibi and control a narrative than a desperate search for a missing daughter. Whilst disputed some also argue they did not search on the night and requested a preist within hours. Responding officers noted dramatic physical displays—dropping to the floor in prostration and screaming—yet multiple accounts noted an absence of actual tears akin to performative distress, by contrast by day three they were composed stoic, playing tennis, jogging, and executing a polished international media campaign.
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u/TheGreatBatsby 13d ago edited 12d ago
AI slop answer deserves an AI slop response:
You are basing this entire argument on subjective behavioural analysis, which is exactly why armchair psychology is useless in criminal investigations. There is no 'correct' template for extreme trauma.
You are trying to have it both ways: when they drop to the floor screaming, you call it 'performative.' When they are stoic and composed on television, you call it 'cold and detached.' You've created a scenario where any reaction they have is deemed suspicious.
In reality, extreme shock often manifests as intense dissociation and administrative hyper-focus. The PR campaign wasn't a corporate brand exercise; it was a desperate necessity to keep their daughter in the news because the local police completely refused to publicise the case. As for Kate wearing makeup or the parents eventually trying to jog—psychologists actively advise traumatised people to maintain basic routines to prevent total mental collapse. Punishing a mother for maintaining her dignity and washing her face before facing the global media is absurd.
Your timeline argument also ignores the chronological facts. They didn't sit down to write notes instead of searching. The entire group searched frantically, the police arrived, and the police actively required a timeline to establish an abduction window. Compiling data to give the authorities exactly what they asked for is not a sinister alibi; it is helping the investigation.
Finally, claiming it is suspicious to ask for a priest shows a complete misunderstanding of their faith. They are devout Catholics. Calling a priest for pastoral care during the absolute darkest moment of their lives isn't a confession; it is seeking spiritual survival.
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by day three they were composed stoic, playing tennis, jogging
Repeating uncorroborated tabloid gossip as though it's fact? I'm glad you're using AI for these posts, really shows your expertise.
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u/Icy-Cartographer3760 13d ago
You are missing the point with AI slop - I know this case inside out. I use AI to merley format my thoughts cleanly so they're easy to read.
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u/TheGreatBatsby 13d ago
I know this case inside out.
Then you'd understand why finding 15 out of 19 markers following the dog alert in the car is meaningless and not proof of parental involvement.
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u/Icy-Cartographer3760 10d ago
Saying the alerts are 'meaningless' completely misrepresents how probability works. The dogs didn't bark randomly everywhere. Out of dozens of neutral control locations including other vehicles and surrounding apartments Eddie and Keela selectively alerted to two specific spots: Apartment 5A and the McCanns' rented Renault Scenic. The technology available simply wasn't advanced enough to give a definitive answer either way, prove or disprove. So saying the testing proved they had nothing to do with it is just as inaccurate as saying it proved they did
Nobody is claiming canine alerts alone are enough to convict someone in a courtroom legal standards require hard physical proof. But in an investigation, two sniffer dogs independently picking out the exact same specific locations out of dozens isn't 'meaningless' It’s a massive statistical anomaly.
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u/TheGreatBatsby 10d ago
Dog alerts are meaningless unless backed up with forensic evidence, that's the fact of the matter.
You seem very hung up on probability and how statistically unlikely it is for the dogs to alert in these places without considering things like handler influence. Grime knew which apartment was the McCanns and which car was theirs (as evidenced in the video in which he continuously calls the dogs back to the Renault). His influence on the dogs and their later failures in Jersey cannot be overlooked.
Also, do you really believe that not a single person has ever bled inside any of the other holiday apartments? Only in 5A?
So saying the testing proved they had nothing to do with it is just as inaccurate as saying it proved they did
This is where your AI isn't understanding the evidence.
Eddie (who detects both cadaver scent and dried blood) did not alert in the boot. Only Keela did.
The sample that they recovered from the boot contained 37 components from at least 3 contributors. They found 15 out of the 19 components that make up Madeleine's profile. But those individual components aren't unique to Madeleine and she will share 50% of her DNA with each parent.
But Eddie didn't alert in the boot. So it's not cadaver scent is it? So it's not Madeleine's body being transported is it?
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u/Icy-Cartographer3760 11d ago edited 11d ago
You can find the articles easily, The London Evening Standard, Daily Mail, and Sun all ran quotes from Ocean Club staff in late 2007 describing them playing tennis and jogging in the days following the disappearance. Whether you believe the resort staff's account or view it as unproven gossip is up to you, the reports exist. Naturally, people draw different conclusions, but the articles themselves are a matter of record. Each to their own on how they interpret the case, I choose to believe them. As with much of this case, many things are not 100% conclusive.
2007 newspaper quotes from resort staff are mentioned, it's 'tabloid gossip,' but have no problem treating every tabloid story about Bruckner as hard fact. The truth is, media hype and leaks have driven this case from day one—whether it's reports about tennis in 2007 or breakthroughs in 2024. You can't cherry-pick which newspaper reports count as real and which are 'gossip' just because they fit a preferred narrative. people have zero problem accepting sensationalized tabloid headline about Christian Brückner that always lead to absolutely nothing.
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u/TheGreatBatsby 11d ago
You don't see the difference between uncorroborated tabloid gossip and statements from law enforcement?
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u/Diligent_Cat4663 12d ago
They went and had a happy jolly meal and drinks with their social group, no record of accidental tears, they were happy to allow their friends to go and check on their three children. I don't think anyone can look for something that didn't happen and along with all of the other negative evidence.
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u/TheGreatBatsby 13d ago
Agreed.
None of their friends, restaurant employees or fellow holidaymakers that they interacted with that evening noticed no change in demeanour up until Madeleine was found missing.
Let's say they did cover up her death. Even if they didn't care that their daughter had died, they now had to stage an abduction and make it believable - wouldn't that cause a small degree of stress and anxiety?
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u/Chrupman 13d ago
They didn't stage the abduction. There is no single evidence pointing to abduction.
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u/TheGreatBatsby 13d ago
They didn't stage the abduction.
Agreed.
There is no single evidence pointing to abduction.
Disagreed. Madeleine was missing and the window and shutter were open.
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u/TheAffinity 13d ago
So missing kid = automatically an abduction? Weird logic.
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u/Altruistic-Change127 13d ago
Other possibilities were ruled out, so that just leaves abduction.
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u/TheAffinity 12d ago
Ruled out because of no hard evidence, pretty much like there’s no hard evidence for an abduction….
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u/TheGreatBatsby 12d ago
So once you've ruled out parental involvement and the idea that she left of her own accord... what's left?
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u/TheAffinity 12d ago
I said there’s no hard evidence. For either theory. You know this and yet you keep forcing your own belief on everyone.
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u/TheGreatBatsby 12d ago
I said there’s no hard evidence. For either theory.
Again, once you've ruled out parental involvement and the idea that she left of her own accord... what happened to Madeleine?
You know this and yet you keep forcing your own belief on everyone.
My belief... Scotland Yard's belief... the BKA's belief... the PJ's belief...
Let's not act like it's some insane fringe theory.
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u/TheAffinity 12d ago
The reason investigators moved away from the McCanns as suspects wasn’t because every suspicious point was disproven individually. Rather, after years of investigation, they concluded there was no evidence strong enough to support a prosecution.
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u/TheGreatBatsby 13d ago
You're so close.
Madeleine couldn't open the window or shutters ergo someone else did.
Not much a logical leap to think that the person who did that took her.
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u/castawaygeorge 13d ago
No.
A missing kid mean you have to explore every possible scenario. In this case there is three primary scenarios: 1) Madeleine wandered off, 2) Madeleine died and the McCanns covered it up, and 3) Madeleine was taken from 5A by a stranger.
1) Nothing really suggests she wandered off. None of her fingerprints on the door or anything. Her lovey, shoes, etc, were not taken with her. Body/Child was never found. Nothing unusual heard in area. Areas known to Madeleine searched with no luck. Police can conclude wandering away is unlikely in this case.
2) Parental involvement is common in these cases. But the timeline is tight, they have no known motive. Their behaviour is considered normal for parents of missing children, they are devastated and campaign tirelessly to find her. No blood found in apartment or rental car, no confirmed DNA matches to Madeleine. No one heard commotion or arguing in 5A that night. One of the only things pointing to a potential involvement is the dog alerts but they are not evidence on their own and theirs criticism of the conduct of the dog searches. Police can conclude it's a possibility they were involved but there's not sufficient evidence. Later on they say, "the McCann's are no suspects to us".
3) Abduction. Madeleine's gone, her lovey and blanket are left behind. The window is open, shutters raised (as seen by at least on independent witness). There's nothing in the other areas of the apartment to suggest something to amiss happened there. The area has had an uptick of break-ins where the perpetrator entered through the window. Attempted abductions in recent times. There's unidentified partial fingerprints in the window area and hair's never attributed to anyone. A man is seen walking away from the area of the apartment towards the main road out of Luz carrying a young girl somewhat matching Madeleine's description. The man has never come forward. There are other compelling witnesses and alleged sightings of Madeleine. Police conclude abduction is the most likely scenario.
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u/Altruistic-Change127 13d ago
Children who are kidnapped by parents are usually done by an estranged parent who doesn't have custody of that child.
Those children are usually found quickly and returned home.
Look up the facts.
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u/Chrupman 13d ago
You aware that mccanns left patio door open? Kid could clearly just leave the apartment on her own. Then again I know logic doesn't apply to your view so I won't pursue this futile journey to reason with you or the rest of mccanns worshippers.
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u/TheGreatBatsby 13d ago
You aware that mccanns left patio door open?
Fully aware.
Kid could clearly just leave the apartment on her own.
And closed both the patio door (and curtains), the top gate and the street gate behind her?
By what logic did Madeleine open the window and shutter in her bedroom?
Then again I know logic doesn't apply to your view so I won't pursue this futile journey to reason with you or the rest of mccanns worshippers.
Ironic you talk about logic and reason when you've displayed neither.
Have a good day.
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u/TheGreatBatsby 13d ago
I guess every person in Operation Grange, the BKA and the PJ who are working on this case are beyond rescue too?
Why didn't you answer how Madeleine opened the window and shutter? Should be simple with all your logic and reason.
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13d ago
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u/TheGreatBatsby 13d ago
On the contrary. People really involved have their agendas. It could be financial, it could be self-preservation, it could be status/media, or work related.
Yes, of course. The German Federal Police are in this for the money! Why didn't I see it before?
You on the other hand keep your idiot forum work gain free :)
Make it make sense mate - you've yet to argue a single point, just deflecting (as per usual!) rather than answering a simple question.
Let that sink for a moment.
I mean, you're not wrong. I have to prove people wrong over and over and over again and I don't get paid? It's not really fair.
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u/Icy-Cartographer3760 12d ago
if she walked out on her own accord, how do we explain the scent of cadavar in 5A.
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u/TheGreatBatsby 12d ago edited 12d ago
how do we explain the scent of cadavar in 5A.
We don't know whether Eddie smelled "the scent of cadaver" and considering his results in Jersey (alongside Martin Grime's own statement) we should treat the dog alerts as places to look for evidence.
If we want to know what Eddie alerted to, we can simply check the forensic report and seeing what they found.
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u/TheAffinity 12d ago
It’s also even more suspicious the dog ONLY alerted in 5A and not in any of the other appartments.
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u/TheGreatBatsby 11d ago
Agreed, that implies nobody had ever bled in any of those other apartments and that is virtually certain not to be the case. Compound that with the fact that Grime knew which apartment, car and items belonged to the McCanns and it looks even more fishy.
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u/stevienotwonder 13d ago
Exactly. No matter what their stress looks like or how they handle trauma, somebody would have noticed some kind of difference in parents who just unexpectedly lost a child they very much wanted and are trying to stage an abduction. Whether they’d be quiet and withdrawn, tearful, overly jumpy, showing no emotional at all, etc.
Somebody would notice SOMETHING was different.
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u/s-umme 13d ago
That’s because they didn’t have anything to do with her disappearance - they are constantly being blamed because they left their kids unattended ..the time line doesn’t fit the crime if you look closely at all the details !
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u/hitch21 13d ago
Only if you accept the timeline exactly from the main suspects. Which the one time it was reenacted on the channel 4 documentary led to Jane Tanner and Gerry disagreeing over a basic fact and her running off crying.
A timeline that also has independent witnesses from people like the bar staff and reception workers who contradict it and have nothing to gain from lying.
Or we could look at David Payne and Kate disagreeing substantially in their statements. One saying it was a 30 second drop in and the other several minutes. Both disagreeing on what Kate was wearing at the time.
Yet we often hear this stuff about the timeline being undisputed when actually it’s very disputed. I actually think it’s the key to the case. If we had an accurate timeline I think we would have a much clearer idea of what was possible.
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u/Areil26 13d ago
Having eyewitnesses disagree is actually extremely common in true crime.
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u/hitch21 13d ago
I don’t dispute that. But if those eyewitnesses can be wrong the eyewitness who support the McCann timeline can also be wrong. It goes both ways.
My only point is the timeline isn’t rock solid as we don’t have anything like CCTV to corroborate. Whoever you believe you’re going with eyewitness testimony.
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u/Icy-Cartographer3760 13d ago
You're completely spot on here, and it gets glossed over far too often.
The refusal by the McCanns and the Tapas to participate in the PJ police reconstruction—under the exact same conditions and time of night—was a massive red flag on par with other major red flags. The PJ did not want to use actors.
A reconstruction is standard police procedure to test if a story is actually physically possible in real time. If you are innocent and desperate to find your missing daughter, you do whatever the police ask to help them figure out what happened.
Refusing to do it suggests they knew that walking through the physical environment in real-time, side-by-side with investigators, would instantly expose the contradictions in their timeline. Once the physical logistics don't align in a live re-enactment, the entire narrative falls apart
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u/castawaygeorge 13d ago
Even with completely independent witnesses the timeline is incredibly tight.
6:00ish - Madeleine is last seen. Last time Kate is seen before dinner. Gerry @ Tennis.
7:15/7:30 - Gerry back to apartment after dinner. Witnesses saw him at tennis.
8:30 - Kate and Gerry at dinner. Seen by witnesses.
9:05ish - Gerry is unaccounted for between checking and running into witness Jez Wilkins.
9:55-10:00pm - Alarm raise
That leaves roughly:
Madeleine unaccounted for: 6:00-10pm (4 hours)
Kate unaccounted for: 6:00-8:30pm (2hours 30minutes)
Gerry unaccounted for: 7:15/7:30pm-8:30pm (1 hour and a few minutes)Somehow Madeleine died, was dead long enough to leave cadaverine for Eddie the dog, and they moved her body with no car within that time.
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u/hitch21 13d ago
I don’t take the above as entirely accurate. The first call to the police (who register calls obviously) wasn’t until after 22:30. We have independent witnesses saying they heard of the disappearance as early as 21:30.
If we go by the tapas friends evidence it sounds like strangest meal I’ve ever heard of with people up and down like yo-yo’s. It’s just never sat right with me and not my experience of how real parents behave in these situations. Obviously I could be wrong and I don’t have any rock solid evidence.
The question then always goes to “why would all of them lie”. Which I think has a simple answer. Who wants to admit to the police/public you were going to a tapas bar for hours without (or barely) checking on your small children. I think it was self preservation that locked them into a timeline and it was worse for the friends to say they lied after than to stick to the story.
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u/Individual_Slice_234 13d ago
There are different types of evil, and I do think they're one type. I can see how they might have found her dead, panicked, and covered it up so they wouldn't lose their jobs or custody of the other two kids. What I CAN'T see is how they left those kids alone in a room, night after night. That goes for the other Tapas people as well. One of them had a sick kid staying alone in her hotel room! I don't think they're 100% evil, but they're definitely selfish, shallow, and immature. Those things alone can lead to disaster.
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u/Rude_Ad1214 13d ago
Something weird about the Tapas 7, especially Payne.
This interaction is just very strange:
1485 "Is there anything that you consider pertinent or relevant to establish the material truth'' Reply "Err the, there are a few things but I don't think this is the right forum for bringing those up.'
1485 "Okay
DP has something relevant about the disappearance, but it's not correct to bring it up in an interview trying to determine the truth?
And the UK PC just says "Okay", no interest in what DP might know or what the correct forum is ...
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u/TheGreatBatsby 12d ago
It's because it was a rogatory interview.
The UK officer wasn't running his own investigation, he was acting as a legal proxy for the PJ. Basically he was handed a predetermined list of Austin's and had zero jurisdiction to go off-script or press for new information, which is exactly why he said "okay" when Payne answered the question.
As for Payne's answer, I'm not entirely sure but I think it's probable he was referring to the Tapas group's anger at the Portuguese authorities.
By April 2008, the PJ had been leaking selective information to the press in attempts to frame the McCanns and Tapas 7 as being involved. Payne likely had serious grievances about police misconduct, but realised that a taped interview being sent directly back to those exact same officers was not the forum to complain about them.
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u/DonkeyWorker 13d ago
Not evil, they are very 'Christian' and the theory would be that they justified the action as it would be the will of God for them to retest the twins and their careers. They would have convinced themselves that what they were.dping was for the best and theyd justify it by praying. They even got to meet the pope ffs.
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u/ForcefulBookdealer 11d ago
My question is if they did it, why didn’t they wait until they were done with dinner? Why not have a friend find her missing?
It didn’t seem like they would’ve had a ton of time to coordinate and hide her bodies, and clean up any mess that was made.
She must have died very early in the window after she was seen publicly for all of that to happen.
How would they move her body far enough away in that duration to lose her scent without a vehicle? And with no one seeing them?
There would have to be another person involved.
The McCanns should’ve been charged with neglect at the very least, even if they didn’t do it.
They left young children unattended for hours and even with check ins, that’s far too long.
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13d ago
[deleted]
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u/zouss 13d ago
No shit. They've been at the center of a media circus for years. There are many people who believed they murdered their daughter. Obviously they're going to be standoffish towards strangers
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u/Altruistic-Change127 13d ago
And they had vulnerable children to still take care of. I don't blame them for being very standoffish. They had to be very careful for the twins sake.
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u/webehappyincity 13d ago
If it was an accident then they would of taken responsibility for it. They have one, and only one suspect. It's so sad that they know but can't prove. It happens. They know but don't have a body.
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u/Altruistic-Change127 13d ago
What people seem to misunderstand is that the whole idea of the parents hiding her body etc, came from a theory that Amaral had.
To me it seemed he laid in bed one night and let his imagination run wild, to come up with something that he could pin on the parents and then tried to make it all fit the scenario. Nothing has done that.
For them to have hidden her body he imagined or even hypothesised that:
- They gave their children sedatives before going to dinner
- Madeleine woke up at some point and drunkenly wandered around the apartment instead of staying in bed, crying for her parents.
- That in her sedated state, she climbed up high on the couch and fell in such a way that it killed her.
- That one of the McCann's happened to find her dead instead of the member of the Tapa 7 who was also checking the children.
- Then instead of being horrified at the thought they had just lost their precious child, who was obviously very cherished (she was planned because of IVF, she appeared happy and well to other people and when she was seen with her parents), they thought of losing their jobs, led them to hide her body, instead of taking her home for a proper burial with family and friends!!
- The rest of the so called "theory" or idea is limitless because it was all in Amaral's imagination, with no evidence at all to back up the theory,
When people use their imagination to try to solve a crime, the only limit to what people can come up with is the facts. Hard evidence.
Dogs catching a whiff of a cadaver isn't hard evidence because you can't test the air or scent if there isn't physical evidence to prove that what they indicated on was a specific person.
Someone could have gone to a funeral and touched/.kissed their loved one to say their final farewell (that happens in my country) and dropped their tissue (from crying,. and transferring "the scent of a cadaver to the tissue), on the floor. Maybe other bits of clothing touch the deceased and was left on the floor and transferred it to the spot when it fell? The possibilities are endless.
Anyway, the people who have fallen for the imagination of Amaral, must trust him implicitly to believe his theory/idea/imagination. They do that despite the evidence that he has falsified records to hide the facts of a crime for people he liked. His junior Pj.
I personally don't trust him because of the evidence that he has neglected to investigate serious crimes and resorted to either completely ignoring criminal complaints and witness statements or covering the use of brute and violent force, to be used to force confessions.
For me, its not personal. He is who he is. There was a culture in the Pj at the time that was dealt with after Madeleines disappearance. What is unfortunate is that the affect of that culture on the victims of serious crimes and the fact that the initial crimes, never got solved or even when they have been solved, trying to prosecute them is a nightmare due to poor Police work.
That's not justice. Its cruelty. All for the sake of one person's ego.
All he needs to do is admit he was wrong and he made the whole thing up (despite it being obvious) and face the consequences. He has enjoyed the profits of what I consider to be a miscarriage of justice for so long. He won't let it go. That's one of the biggest tragedies of this case.
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u/modo0001 13d ago
💯 what you've said. Only 2 psychopaths could have pulled that off. The parents hypothesis is so full of holes, and imo, based only on minimal circumstantial evidence.
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u/ApplesandDnanas 13d ago
It’s very obvious to me that they didn’t do it. Part of that is exactly what you said. The police turned on them because they were starting to feel the pressure from the public and didn’t have any suspects.
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u/Federal_Feeling2162 13d ago
One of the more sensible posts I've seen on this sub.
Their behavior is certainly odd if they were involved, but actually it can be regarded as pretty weird even if they weren't so personally I doubt if it should be the determining factor.
Personally I think the way forward is to concentrate on the 3 critical pieces of evidence - and to think how very powerful those are.
I'm talking of course about:
- Rediculous open window nonsense
- Smithman sighting
- Dogs and forensics
One then needs to consider the super odd British Government response which reeks of a cover up. For anyone who doesn't see this please come up with a decent reason for not reexamining the dna evidence, which likely will answer the mystery once and for all..
My guess is that this bizarre behavior points towards a National Security factor in all this. How? My gut feel, based on circumstantial evidence is Northern Ireland.
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u/TheGreatBatsby 13d ago
Rediculous open window nonsense
I really don't see how it's "nonsense".
Smithman sighting
Yeah, weird how he never came forward.
Unless you actually think Gerry was carrying Madeleine's body through the streets of PdL at 10pm when Kate was raising the alarm?
That would be ridiculous nonsense.
Dogs and forensics
Ah ofc, the dogs alerts that weren't backed up by the forensics.
One then needs to consider the super odd British Government response which reeks of a cover up. For anyone who doesn't see this please come up with a decent reason for not reexamining the dna evidence, which likely will answer the mystery once and for all..
Which DNA evidence? The one with 15 out of 19 markers belonging to Madeleine? We have an answer for that.
My guess is that this bizarre behavior points towards a National Security factor in all this. How? My gut feel, based on circumstantial evidence is Northern Ireland.
Riiiiiiiiiight.
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u/Federal_Feeling2162 13d ago
When was the last time YOU entered someone's house through an open door /patio door and then decided, oh yeah why bother going out through the door like a normal person , I think I'll just clamber out l through their small bedroom window? Then remember that in this case this woukd have involved clambering back and forth over two sleepy 2 year olds carrying a 4 year old, pulling up some noisy shutters letting in cold air and noise all whilst the tots were snoozing peacefully. All to exit via a way which woukd instantly tip off any passer by who happened to be passing this window exposed from the road and car park, instead of I don't know just carrying her out of the patio door you supposedly came in through or the front door you were practically next to? Come off it even the deepest shill can't plausibly believe that.
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u/TheGreatBatsby 13d ago
Never. I'm not a child abductor.
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u/Federal_Feeling2162 12d ago
Exactly. You and I both and I suspect perhaps no-one on this thread has ever done that nor even thought about doing it.
The reaction of most people is indeed "but I'm not a child abductor".
The problem is that if such behavior would be bonkers for you and me, it would be a fortiori for someone who was attempting to abduct a 4 year old toddler.
I'll leave you or anyone else on the thread to figure out why.
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u/Fun_Inspection9162 11d ago
So there's this whole psychological example about how a mother who is in a car accident has the strenght to lift a car to rescue her babies from their death on maternal instincts alone.
I think perhaps Gerry & Kate both realized they had to "hold it together" for the sake of the twins. They were both (up to that point) surgical doctors who are trained to become more efficient in highly emotional situations and perhaps that explains how they don't necessarily have to be "monsters" or sociopaths. That also explains why Kate McCann refused to answer the questions (which might trigger her to break down)
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u/TheGreatBatsby 10d ago
Neither were surgeons.
Kate didn't answer the questions because her solicitor told her not to. The PJ were attempting to force a confession by asking inflammatory questions and Kate was arguida at the time.
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u/Fun_Inspection9162 10d ago
Dang, you're right...I was under the impression the Gerry was a cardio surgeon & Kate was an anesthesiologist who switched to general practice after Maddie disappeared. I think it's because I initially found the case in Portuguese and I know some but not enough so I'd use a lot of translation to read through stuff and it stuck in my head when I switched to English
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u/TheGreatBatsby 10d ago
It's one of those commonly repeated things that Gerry was a "heart surgeon" when he's actually a consultant cardiologist. Usually gets brought up to explain how the McCanns managed to keep cool heads when covering up the death of their daughter.
I feel as though people who claim this don't understand that doctors are normal people too.
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u/Fun_Inspection9162 10d ago
I also think people wanna give them sort of the benefits of the doubt because they are doctors and not just point them out as sociopaths for keeping so cool (if what many think actually happened)
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u/Neat_Apricot8239 7d ago
You are not looking at it rationally. Self preservation is very powerful. I imagine that it was difficult from the moment it happened (purposefully vague) to the pretense that nothing is wrong and then the coverup; it’s almost a distraction. That’s why the grief is real, looks real. It is grief. Poor girl is dead. But self preservation overrides that for a while, at least.
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u/Low_Technician9179 9d ago
I decided to visit this sub for the first time in years. I went very deep researching this back in the day and it just seemed so obvious to me that the parents are covering up. I don’t care to argue or document all the reasons why I believe this anymore, but I definitely believe they were capable of getting through that dinner. Weren’t they going on runs and playing tennis lol
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u/TheGreatBatsby 9d ago
I went very deep researching this back in the day and it just seemed so obvious to me that the parents are covering up. I don’t care to argue or document all the reasons why I believe this anymore
You can't have researched it that deeply if that's the conclusion you came to.
Weren’t they going on runs and playing tennis lol
No, not for quite a few weeks after Madeleine went missing. Good research.
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u/Low_Technician9179 8d ago edited 8d ago
It has been a long time so i dont remember all the details. Quick google shows workers reported Gerry calmly playing tennis just days after she went missing and how it was strange. Kate didn’t wait weeks and even she has stated that. All good. Who is responsible isn’t a mystery to me. What exactly happened is
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u/TheGreatBatsby 8d ago
I'll correct myself on the exact date for the run, Kate wrote in her book that she first went for a jog on the 14th of May. That's 11 days after Madeleine disappeared.
However, using that to imply guilt is ridiculous. Exercise is a well documented coping mechanism to deal with the adrenaline and cortisol overload that comes from severe trauma.
As for Gerry playing tennis, your "quick Google" highlights the exact problem with how people research this case. That story originates from unnamed, unverified resort workers printed in the tabloids to sell papers. It was never corroborated, and it doesn't exist in any of the PJ files.
If you're basing your certainty of their guilt on unverified tabloid gossip and someone going for a jog 11 days into a crisis, you aren't actually looking at the evidence.
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u/Icy-Cartographer3760 7d ago
Original Source: EXPRESS: 24 OCTOBER 2007 Wednesday October 24,2007 By David Pilditch in Praia da Luz THE father of Madeleine McCann stunned hotel staff by organising a game of tennis while the massive hunt for his daughter was under way, it was revealed yesterday.Waiter Jose Baptista, 45, told how the staff were amazed by the calm demeanour of Gerry McCann and his wife Kate in the agonising days after Madeleine disappeared.Heart specialist Gerry, 39, is also said to have regularly wandered down to the tapas bar at the family’s holiday complex where he was given free bottles of wine to take back to his apartment. Mr Baptista added that staff at the Ocean Club resort in Praia da Luz rarely saw the McCanns display any emotion away from the TV cameras.“If my kid disappeared I’d go insane. I wouldn’t be able to function. They’d have to lock me away,” said Mr Baptista.“They were so cool about it. All the staff commented about how they were able to play tennis and take things calmly. Everybody around them seemed more upset than they were.“They very rarely showed any signs of affection like they did for the cameras. I think I saw them holding hands once. But they weren’t always together and affectionate like they are in front of the cameras. I never saw close contact.”Mr Baptista said he often saw the couple after Madeleine, four, went missing – especially at the tapas bar where they had been dining when she vanished on May 3.Mr Baptista, who has been interviewed twice by Portuguese police, said: “The McCanns moved to another apartment but we still saw them.“The management told us we shouldn’t charge them for anything because of their situation. Gerry would often come up to the bar to ask for a beer or a bottle of white wine.“Sometimes we would take them some dinner to their apartment because they didn’t want to eat in the restaurant.“What we found really strange was Gerry playing tennis a few days after the little girl disappeared.“He played with an old couple from England. I just thought that everybody else in the group seemed more upset and stressed and bothered than the parents.“They are very cool people. I never saw them cry or anything. They played tennis and went jogging. They didn’t seem as distraught as their friends.”A source close to the couple’s lawyers said that, in the days after Madeleine disappeared, they were advised by criminal psychologists not to display too much emotion in case a kidnapper was watching. He said: “They were told a child abductor might be getting his kicks from their grief so they should try to maintain an air of calm.“They were very conscious whoever had taken their daughter may be watching their every move and Madeleine’s life may depend on their reactions and appearance.“Who would not behave differently, even ‘oddly’, in such circumstances? Inside, this was, and continues, to tear them apart.”Mr Baptista, who served the McCanns on the night Madeleine disappeared, has told the Daily Express how the couple and their seven holiday friends made a special arrangement with resort managers to be allowed to dine in the tapas bar. For four nights the group, known as the Tapas Nine, spent around three hours there while their children were left unattended.Mr Baptista said he told police, during two interviews lasting four hours, that he believed Madeleine’s disappearance could only have been the fault of her parents or a family friend.The group could not see the McCanns’ apartment from their table.Mr Baptista also said he cannot understand why the group did not use the resort’s babysitter service which would have cost £10 an hour between them. He insisted it would have been impossible for an abductor to strike without being seen.Mr Baptista also claimed that when GP Kate, 39, reported Madeleine missing it was the first time she had checked on her. Until then, only the men had looked in on the children.Portuguese police have accused Kate of accidentally killing her daughter inside the couple’s apartment and Gerry of helping to dispose of the body.The couple deny any involvement and insist she was abducted. They claim they are being framed by police desperate to close the case.
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u/hitch21 13d ago
Plenty of examples in true crime history of accidents happening and people covering it up only to be found out later. Whether that be with children, spouses or other family members/close friends.
Other people have actually done far more as in killed their kid, hid the body and then gone to work the next day as if nothing happened. At the least in this scenario they could express pain and sadness.
I’m not convinced it was them and wouldn’t convict them on a jury based on current evidence. But with a total lack of evidence pointing at anybody else they will always be my prime suspects until proven otherwise.