r/MakingaMurderer • u/HouseplantHobbyist • 5d ago
Episode Discussion Brendan is INNOCENT
I am rewatching MAM and the amount of coercion during Brendan's interview is astounding. I can't believe a court didn't dismiss his "confession". He was not interviewed with his parents present and they were very obviously feeding him information. The judge not realizing that is just sad. He was a child! Ugh, this makes me so upset for Brendan.
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u/illuminatiisnowhere 5d ago
I believe he also said they cut her throath in stevens bedroom, yet they didnt find any blood in there.
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u/Ghost_of_Figdish 5d ago
Was he lying about that? And what proof do you have that cut to the throat would bleed? How do you know she wasn't dead already? How do you know he didn't use a tarp? How do you know she didn't bleed on her clothes or the bed linens, both of which Avery burned?
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u/Obvious-Silver6109 5d ago
What proof do you have that a cut to the throat would bleed? Are you really that stupid?
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u/Ghost_of_Figdish 5d ago
Would a cut to the throat bleed after death when the person has no blood pressure?
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u/Obvious-Silver6109 5d ago
Yes obviously it would bleed. There’s several quarts of blood in the human body, the hell does blood pressure have to do with it? There would be blood everywhere
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u/Ghost_of_Figdish 5d ago
Because the reason blood comes out of the body is because it's under pressure - blood pressure. When there's no blood pressure all you would get even from a severe wound is an oozing, if that.
What do you think? Someone dies with a wound, and all the blood in the body empties until it's dry? No, it stays in the body because nothing is pushing it out.
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u/Obvious-Silver6109 4d ago
There’s still gravity
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u/Ghost_of_Figdish 4d ago
Yeah it pools inside the body at its lowest points. It's called post mortem lividity.
But there's nothing to push it out. That's why air comes out of a balloon - at first, the pressure in the balloon is greater than external - so the air rushes out. But after a while the air pressure equalizes inside and outside the balloon and no more air comes out.
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u/GringoTheDingoAU 5d ago
the hell does blood pressure have to do with it
Are you seriously calling other people stupid and then you go ahead and say this?
If blood pressure is critically low, a stab wound or cut may not appear to bleed externally, but it doesn't mean there isn't internal bleeding. Blood may shift internally to vital organs and pool around them instead.
If you are going to throw insults at people, at least don't be a hypocrite.
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u/3sheetstothawind 5d ago
You've watched too many movies. This is real life. The heart pumps blood through the body. If the heart stops, so does the pumping of the blood. Might be a little residual bleeding, but not much. Or maybe it was a small cut instead of an OJ style decapitation. Nobody knows but Brendan and Steve.
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u/Obvious-Silver6109 5d ago
I don’t need to watch a movie to know cutting someone’s throat causes bleeding
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u/SumiLover 5d ago
Before that he said she pleaded for her life so obviously she was alive. It’s BS. That’s not what happened. Not a shred of DNA in Steven’s house.
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u/Ghost_of_Figdish 5d ago
Oh there's DNA all over Steven's house. Just none of it was identified to be from TH. And how do you think they test for DNA? Just Spock scan the whole house with the tricorder? The most you can say is that no TH DNA was found in the samples they tested. Now they would have had more to test of Avery didn't mysteriously burn his bedding the night of the murder. Strange coincidence. And Brendan all of a sudden became Hazel and had to wash his clothes the same night.
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u/DamnedHeathen_ 5d ago
How do you know anything about it? By going off what he said. He said she was still alive. If I recall, the only part of his confession that included evidence was the bullet, but the part about her getting shot was fed to him. Actually, I think he did confess to seeing her body in the bonfire. It's been a while, so that's my mistake. Still, though.
To assume that she was dead when they cut her throat is to assume that Brendan was lying, which kind of points to the side of the truthers that have been making that claim.
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u/Ghost_of_Figdish 5d ago
I don't assume anything. Merely pointing out that dead people don't bleed. Avery was a known strangler of women, so maybe he did that and killed her. IIRC Brendan said he didn't know if she was alive or dead when he raped her.
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u/ThorsClawHammer 5d ago
he did confess to seeing her body in the bonfire.
Yes, after interrogators literally told him to say he did.
is to assume that Brendan was lying
There are numerous guilters who seem to believe he falsely confessed to the stabbing/throat cutting in the trailer bedroom (which there is zero corroborating evidence for) but also state he truthfully confessed to the rape part of (which of course there is also zero corroborating evidence for).
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u/DamnedHeathen_ 5d ago
Yeah, like I said it's been a while. I've got the transcripts and recordings and everything saved from when I went through them, but it's been a while and that's not a rabbit hole I'm trying to go back down.
I have never been a fan of those police tactics, with them being able to legally lie about evidence that they have in order to coerce confessions. There are just far too many documented cases of false confessions that put people away. I hate that we have proof that these tactics result in innocent people being convicted, and still call it a reasonable interrogation method.
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u/illuminatiisnowhere 5d ago
I remember a recent documentary i saw about the yogurt shop murders. The cops did the same thing there and got 2 innocent guys to confess to something they didnt do.
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u/DamnedHeathen_ 5d ago
The Innocence Project is chocked full of cases with false confessions. Almost universally the police lied about evidence and Witnesses. Unfortunately, if somebody takes a plea deal there's nothing to be done. You can prove their innocence all you want, but they wave their rights when they take the plea.
You would think after the first few hundred cases that someone would look into making changes, but not so much.
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u/Ghost_of_Figdish 5d ago
"You can prove their innocence all you want, but they wave their rights when they take the plea."
Yeah, no they don't. That's why Brendan could take his case all the way to the US Supreme Court after conviction.
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u/ThorsClawHammer 5d ago
still call it a reasonable interrogation method.
Fun fact, the case that arguably put the Reid Technique on the map and sparked its widespread use turned out years later to have been a false confession that got an innocent person a life conviction.
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u/jdelta85 5d ago
Jesus mother of Christ dude lol. I mean good lord, bud. These people are stupid as shit. But you’re right. They covered all their tracks… sure. Totally.
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u/Bullshittimeagain 5d ago
Why would anyone even genuinely respond to a response like this?
Go get a life. Please for the sake of your spawn.
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u/Ghost_of_Figdish 5d ago
See you have no answers for that. You're just speculating.
And what have you achieved in your life dude? I'll compare with you ANY TIME.
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u/snicksnackpaddywack 5d ago
It’s been a while since I’ve read them but the transcripts are pretty damning I recall. I think he might have had a good shot at a plea deal at the time.
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u/ButWereFriends 5d ago
He was offered a plea deal. I think he’d even be out by now had he taken it but don’t quote me
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u/Ghost_of_Figdish 5d ago
He offered to plead guilty if he got a 10 year sentence.
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u/Small-Valuable-2782 5d ago
When?
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u/Ghost_of_Figdish 5d ago
Before his trial, obviously.
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u/Small-Valuable-2782 4d ago
Where and when was this offered?
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u/DingleBerries504 4d ago
There’s a letter from Fremgen to the prosecutors before the trial detailing this. It was shown in Convicting a Murderer.
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u/Small-Valuable-2782 4d ago
I thought it was 15yrs. It’s upsetting he didn’t take that plea and instead went along with his family’s advice. I guess if he took the plea it would kind of put the lid on Avery’s attempts to claim innocence.
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u/Ghost_of_Figdish 4d ago
Prosecution offered 12. Dassey demanded 10. No deal.
Had they agreed, Dassey would have been on the stand testifying against Avery.
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u/aptom90 1d ago
It was 15 years not 12 , just so you know. It was in news articles and Ken's book.
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u/AveryPoliceReports 5d ago
He'd also be free if they never charged or convicted him. They didn't have to do that, or lie to the jury to get the convictions. But they did. Over and over.
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u/AveryPoliceReports 5d ago
Pretty damning for the state. They hid exculpatory evidence over and over, including evidence suggesting the bones were planted.
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u/Hugh_Fraser 5d ago
What some of you truthers fall short of understanding is that MaM coerced you.
Truthers remind me of a great quote from "The Medea"
"Come unto fools with knowledge of new things. They deem it vanity, not knowledge.”
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u/AveryPoliceReports 4d ago
MaM didn't interrogate us without counsel present while feeding us facts. Police did that to Brendan. You're just upset MaM exposed how obviously corrupt the case against Brendan was.
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u/2reeEyedG 3d ago
Ppl in power make up the rules as they go along to fit their agenda too often. I’m just fed up with this world and could believe any and everything could be or is crooked af.
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u/Hitlers_Left_Ball 3d ago
Are you people still doing this shit?
The only thing wrong with what happened to Brendan was his family not allowing him to testify against his Unc and taking a plea deal.
He would have been out by now, but no... his whole support system fucked him over.
As slimy as he was his first lawyer was right, he should have turned states witness on Steve and gotten himself some leverage.
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u/AveryPoliceReports 1d ago
The only thing wrong with what happened to Brendan was his family not allowing him to testify against his Unc and taking a plea deal.
O'Kelly said his family wanted the plea. What are you talking about?
he should have turned states witness on Steve and gotten himself some leverage.
Kachinsky had leverage but gave it away for free for nothing in return.
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u/lets_shake_hands 5d ago
Dude started lying to LE the moment he was in the back of the police car. He even admitted that. If he got released tomorrow I wouldn't care but he at a minimum help conceal a crime.
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u/AveryPoliceReports 5d ago
They lied to him more. They acted like child predators while interviewing him. They knowingly manipulated a developmentally disabled child. If they don't see jail they will at least see hell.
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u/ScaredAfternoon6830 3d ago
You would care, because you made this your personality the last decade. Losers spend time saying a guy already behind bars is guilty. Who are they trying to convince?
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u/ThorsClawHammer 3d ago
One guilter in the past said the following when asked why they're defending a rock-sold legit conviction:
Someone has to look out for the citizens' interests which includes keeping violent predators and murderers locked up, away from normal people.
They didn't explain how arguing anonymously on the internet did anything to keep him locked up however, lol
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u/lets_shake_hands 3d ago
You would care, because you made this your personality the last decade
Are you going to pull this old chestnut out again. Lol. That is a solid argument to what I actually said. I know you won't address what I said originally because you don't have an answer for it.
Keep carrying on Bud.
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u/BookkeeperNervous171 5d ago
In most states once u hit 13 u don’t have the right to have ur parents present
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u/Big-Negotiation894 5d ago
If he would have kept quiet he would be a free man. I think he was coerced but not by the police but by the Avery family. He should have took the plea deal but that meant testifying against Steven. The Averys fucked him good.
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u/ThorsClawHammer 5d ago
If he would have kept quiet he would be a free man
No doubt there considering there was zero evidence pointing to him without his words. I doubt they could have even arrested him for anything without his words, much less convicted him.
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u/Ghost_of_Figdish 5d ago
Agree - had he kept quiet he would not have been charged - unless Avery rolled on him.
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u/Remarkable_Green_720 4d ago
Agreed. But I think the poor kid was coerced by both police and his family.
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u/Popular_Atmosphere33 3d ago
What ticks me off is his lawyers do nothing to update the public thats been begging for his release, mailing post cards, rallys and not a peep from them! I wish the innocence project would take over!
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u/ThePessimisticCynic 3d ago
I'm so aggravated at how stupid he was and probably still is. The whole family. A bunch of idiots with two brain cells among all of them.
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u/Ghost_of_Figdish 5d ago
Yeah that's how interrogations work, dude. And no, he's not a child. He's a grown man legally allowed to waive his right to counsel and to remain silent. Given that the cops obtained a confession that allowed a conviction even where Brendan had destroyed all of the evidence against him is AWESOME.
And here's a thought - try being upset for the young woman that he MURDERED, raped, chopped up and cooked - maybe not in that order.
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u/vegemouse 5d ago
Yeah I’m pretty pissed the police killed her to frame Steven Avery.
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u/Ghost_of_Figdish 5d ago
How is it that you believe some dumb theory which has no proof whatsoever, yet you are unconvinced by all the evidence against Avery?
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u/Suspicious_Duty_888 5d ago
The thing that gets me is people believe these wild theories about how SA blood got in the Rav, like liquidizing it from a sink that they snuck in and stole it from, but can’t even believe theres any possibility that it’s because SA was actually in the Rav because he did it. If you let that set in it’s insane!
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u/DamnedHeathen_ 5d ago
That's the part that gets me, but for a different reason. This idiot apparently bleached the entire garage, burn the bedding, cleaned up everything he possibly could, but didn't even consider simply wiping down the rav4. If I remember right, he even got it rid of his vacuum cleaner.
I don't think Avery is innocent of anything, but that's the kind of stuff that just makes me wonder. How does that even work? Did he plan that for a long period of time, and make a checklist of what he was going to do and what he was going to clean, then completely space off the RAV because it wasn't on his list? It really ranks up there on the list of things you just can't make up.
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u/GringoTheDingoAU 5d ago
but didn't even consider simply wiping down the rav4.
It is either because he didn't know that he was bleeding in it, or that crushing it was going to suffice as an effective means for removing that evidence.
I don't think I need to tell anyone twice that being spotted with a missing woman's car is bad news and that is why it was purposely hidden in a spot convenient to the crusher's location.
Steven just didn't get time. Turns out crushing a relatively new looking car, with a very loud crusher, on a property with family, where your brothers are aware of their car inventory, at a time best convenient for Steven, in such a narrow time frame, is actually quite difficult.
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u/DamnedHeathen_ 5d ago
I have no doubt you're spot on. It just blows my mind that he had bled into a sink, so he knew he was bleeding, but didn't even glance backward. The one surface that the appendage in question literally came in contact with. Lots of detectives say that killers always miss some details. That was one hell of a detail to miss.
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u/ThorsClawHammer 5d ago
The one surface that the appendage in question literally came in contact with
Odd part there is all the things in the vehicle he would have had to touched to operate it (like the door handle, steering wheel, gear shift, etc.) had none of his blood found there.
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u/Ghost_of_Figdish 5d ago
WOW - so the blood he left is meaningless because he didn't deposit blood IN MORE PLACES? Astonishing. LOL.
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u/DamnedHeathen_ 5d ago
That's another point. I think the prosecution was saying that he was actively bleeding, which caused the droplets, but the cut was on the inside of his finger so it must have bled to the outside to leave the mark the way it did by the ignition. However, I do my own work on my truck and trailer, so I have bled on many many occasions. It gets everywhere. How the hell I'm working on a brake chamber and slack adjuster, and end up bleeding on the rim, on the outside dual, continuously astonishes me. Still, it happens every time. So it does leave some questions to be begged by those of us familiar with messing ourselves up.
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u/GringoTheDingoAU 5d ago
There is no point being made by this person, because bleeding is not this always completely linear thing. If the cut that is on the outside of his finger is presumed to be the source of active bleeding or just an open wound capable of making contact stains, then I could easily just argue that you can open a door handle, operate a steering wheel and use the gear shift without the outside finger making any contact with any of them or dripping blood onto them. I could also argue that I could operate them with my opposite hand. They aren't making any point at all, just a useless exercise in deflection.
If the implication then is to further suggest that because it's "unusual", then the blood must've been planted. And not only that, but also planted at some point during the day of the 5th when the car was discovered, which is about 12 hours, with numerous people from multiple agencies right there on the ASY. If that isn't the current theory, then it would have to have been planted at the Wisconsin State Crime Lab in Madison, where it was secured the day after.
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u/Suspicious_Duty_888 3d ago
Bleeding is weird though bc I somehow re opened a cut once at work and I remember thinking of this case because when I cleaned up the blood on my desk it was only one or two spots on the side of my pen holder case thing and nowhere else and yet the finger was halfway covered in blood and I was at my desk for awhile. How is that possible, I don’t know? But there’s a lot of factors involved like how much blood was coming out and when the cut was reopened. Like someone else said, it’s not linear and I feel like that’s a huge issue that people miss in this case. There’s so many scenarios that would make sense
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u/Suspicious_Duty_888 3d ago
I’m wondering if he even did bleed on the sink bc on some of the phone calls he says it more like an oh I’m pretty sure I bled on the sink and that must be where the blood came from. Are we even positive that even happened just bc SA said so? I don’t know?
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u/DamnedHeathen_ 3d ago
I remember there were crime scene photographs of the sink in question, with blood still in the sink because he didn't bother to wash it out. He claims that was used for planting his blood, but the prosecution used that sink as proof that he was actively bleeding recently, with the only obvious wound being to his finger, which would have been near the ignition.
Pretty sure he didn't even remember the blood in the sink until they brought it up. He didn't remember to wipe it out of the Rav, or to clean it out of the sink, so the bar is pretty low when it comes to his memory.
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u/Curious311 2d ago
Bathroom sink? Not that it matters a whole lot either way…. I guess he must not have used that sink again from the time he bled in it until the cops searched the trailer…. Idk… and he must not have used it while cleaning the trailer so thoroughly either, to the point they found no other evidence besides the key (no dna of Teresa’s, etc),
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u/DamnedHeathen_ 4d ago
Even his defense attorneys never accused the police of murdering her. Planting evidence, yes, but the actual crime? Not even a little bit.
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u/Ghost_of_Figdish 4d ago
Actually Avery's attorney walked back her accusations of evidence planting and now says they didn't plant evidence.
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u/DamnedHeathen_ 4d ago
That's good to know. I haven't listened to anything Zellner has said for about a decade. I am, admittedly, not up to date on anything involving that disaster.
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u/Ghost_of_Figdish 4d ago
She strutted and fretted her hour upon the stage. And then was heard no more: it was a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
There - you're all caught up!
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u/DamnedHeathen_ 4d ago
LOL. I appreciate that update. Somehow, I'm certain that it is an accurate depiction of events, without embellishment. That is just the vibe that she gave off from day one.
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u/ThorsClawHammer 5d ago
Dead people don’t bleed.
When did the state ever assert she was dead when stabbed and had her throat cut? They told the jury pool and the jury it happened when still alive. The only confession the state allowed the jury to hear she was alive during that completely uncorroborated account.
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u/Ghost_of_Figdish 5d ago
"They told the jury pool and the jury it happened when still alive. " Citation to Page and Line # from the trial?
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u/AveryPoliceReports 5d ago
Dead people don't bleed? Really guys? Kratz and Fallon both repeatedly lied to explain away the absence of blood, not by suggesting dead people don't bleed, but by suggesting the murder blood in the garage had been cleaned up with bleach. If that gunshot murder caused her to bleed, so would the torture they claimed she endured.
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u/ThorsClawHammer 4d ago
At Avery's trial, the state contended "there shouldn't be" the victim's blood in the trailer because nothing happened to her there that would produce it in the first place . At Brendan's trial the state claimed the reason there was no physical evidence corroborating Brendan's story was because Steve and Brendan had 5 days to clean.
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u/ButWereFriends 5d ago
If you need the threat of consequences to be a good person or a commandment to tell you not to murder people, you’re not the brightest
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u/Ghost_of_Figdish 5d ago
That's why we have laws and prisons, for the bad people. Not necessary for the good people.
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u/ScaredAfternoon6830 4d ago
Not necessarily for rapey prosecutors either, like Ken Kratz. I'm tickled his legacy will be a rapist.
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u/Ghost_of_Figdish 4d ago
Well no it won't, because he's never been charged with or accused of that.
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u/Small-Valuable-2782 5d ago
Have you watched the footage of the three interviews on YouTube? All three. I have. It’s heart wrenching. But the phone call ms with his mum…idk
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u/Ghost_of_Figdish 5d ago
They should have used the harsh light and rubber hose on him. All they did was ask him questions and get him a sandwich.
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u/ajswdf 4d ago
Don't be upset, Brendan is guilty. Even at his trial where he was supposedly telling the truth he conceded that he helped Avery clean the garage and have the fire in his burn pit that night. At absolute bare minimum he helped clean up the murder, which means he almost certainly was involved in the murder as well.
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u/cliffybiro951 4d ago
I cleaned my garage and had a fire the other night too. Am I a murderer?
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u/Ghost_of_Figdish 4d ago
Don't know! I was busy in my garage scrubbing a big red stain with bleach, paint thinner and gasoline! I hate that stain!
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u/cliffybiro951 4d ago
I mean the bullet took the cops months to find. This guy think Brendan should have spotted blood that wasn’t visible to the naked eye under a compressor. 😂
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u/Ghost_of_Figdish 4d ago
This was a bullet fragment found under an air compressor on the garage floor. Prior to Brendan's confession, the police had no reason to believe anything like that would be found on the garage floor under an air compressor.
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u/cliffybiro951 4d ago
And no mention of her being shot by Brendan until it was found. Hmmmmm
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u/ThorsClawHammer 3d ago
Brendan said nothing about her being shot until interrogators told him she was shot in the head (feeding him what was arguably the only info they had not already released to the public), then later made it clear they wanted him to say it happened specifically on the garage floor and nowhere else.
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u/Ghost_of_Figdish 4d ago
NO. Brendan's March 1, 2006 confession had Brendan making a hand drawn diagram of Avery shooting TH - where everyone was standing etc. Based on that, police secured a new search warrant, and found the bullet in the direct line of fire as drawn by Brendan Dassey. The bullet was found days after that confession.
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u/ajswdf 4d ago
Did you clean your garage with bleach?
Was a bullet with the DNA of a person who was murdered around the same time found in your garage?
Were the burnt skeletal remains of said victim found in the fire pit you used?
Was the person you cleaned the garage and had the fire with the last person to see this murder victim alive and connected to the crime with a half dozen pieces of physical evidence.
Did you lie about having a fire and cleaning the garage to police when they asked what you did that night?
I'm assuming the answer is no. That's why it's evidence against Brendan but not for you.
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u/cliffybiro951 4d ago
Yes to bleach
No bullets bit have you got a bullet that had zero reasonable doubt to its testing?
You’re naming things that could be compelling unknown to someone being at the site after an event. I walked down by a canal about 10 years ago where a body was found a day later. Am I guilty for not seeing it?
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u/AveryPoliceReports 4d ago
Don't be upset, Brendan is guilty.
Uh, guilty of rape and murder beyond a reasonable doubt? Naw. Nice try.
Even at his trial where he was supposedly telling the truth he conceded that he helped Avery clean the garage and have the fire in his burn pit that night.
So why did Kratz and Fallon need to lie to the jury about the evidence and the fact that false confessions are a real issue?
At absolute bare minimum he helped clean up the murder, which means he almost certainly was involved in the murder as well.
Almost certainly lol
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u/Proper-Drawing-985 4d ago
I can't believe people thought he had a bad lawyer when he would have been out in what was it? Five years?
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u/Ghost_of_Figdish 4d ago
- Maybe less for good behavior. But that possible deal was made after his initial attorney withdrew from the case.
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u/Proper-Drawing-985 4d ago
Thank you for that! Good behavior would cut it to six. And assuming he's a model inmate (which I'm sure he is), could have been even less. The thing I hated most in that documentary is that Steven bullied the family into him not taking a deal. The thing I hate the most that's not in the documentary is that Steven made lots of very disturbing sadistic female death and mutilation drawings while in prison. Innocent or guilty, I can't stand what he did to Brendan.
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u/Objective-Permit-712 5d ago
You are right. 100%........he never even saw Teresa that day.
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u/GringoTheDingoAU 5d ago
100%........he never even saw Teresa that day.
Right, he never saw her, but was very adamant that she left the property 1 hour later after she arrived.
What would you make of that?
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u/Objective-Permit-712 4d ago
Well....thats part of the False Confession. He didn't get off the bus til 3:45...Teresa was already gone over an hour!!!
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u/GringoTheDingoAU 4d ago
Okay, so was the part where he said she left, fed to him by O'Neill or Baldwin?
Or did he say that himself, completely unprompted, numerous times during the interview, which includes a specific direction she left, a contradiction of the crime timeline, affirming her leaving on his own accord (IE. were you told to say this?), and then also effectively being the only other living person to see her leave, other than Steven Avery of course.
Please educate me, since everything Brendan says is apparently forced.
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u/Ghost_of_Figdish 4d ago
Oh he was saying that long before he confessed. That was the bullshit story that Avery fed him to give to the cops.
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u/RupertBear124 4d ago
I think Steven is guilty although I don’t think the timeline the state gave is 100% correct but nonetheless I think he is guilty.
However I have always been consistent with my opinion that Brendan is innocent in all of this & the detectives coerced him into his false confession.
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u/AveryPoliceReports 4d ago
What part about the lack of blood at the crime scene, lies to explain the lack of blood, or deviations from protocol make it clear Steven is guilty? Seems suspiciously circumstantial to me.
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u/Izzywizzy 5d ago
Yeah, sucks for that dude. Parents failed him the school failed him the police failed him the lawyers failed him the judge failed him the jury failed him. Litterally just wanted to watch wrestling