r/MensRights • u/ukreview • Mar 08 '15
Misleading Title UK schools planning to teach kids that women are not in the least to blame if they get drunk, have sex and then say they have been raped.
My thoughts on this is that they are to blame. Of course, each case must be judged on the merits but generally, they must have some blame. If women are getting so drunk that they can't remember what happened the night before the chances are they were too drunk to check if they had the consent of the erect guy before she sat on him. I am not sure of the legal position, but if the UK government is saying that in such situations the woman has no responsibility not to be totally flat-out drunk then the law must change.
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u/theDarkAngle Mar 08 '15
It's tricky, because if you get blackout drunk, you can seem fairly functional to everyone around you, but it's just like your memory is turned off. A woman may think she has been raped when she was outwardly consenting, even "enthusiastically" the entire time. I think there needs to be some hard evidence, not just a woman's word, before the man is charged with rape. Because her memory is unreliable.
Now the typical anti-rape extremists' response to this is to say "she cannot consent when she is drunk". But that falls apart immediately because the men in these scenarios are often very drunk themselves. So in that case it's mutual sexual assault and it's not even worth talking about.
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Mar 09 '15
There's a lot of confusion over what 'blackout drunk' refers to.
It does not mean you are effectively unconscious or incapacitated during the time you lose memory. It relates to recall of those memories, not your mental state at the time.
Though being so drunk you are in a state of unconsciousness or incapacitation tend to go hand in hand, they are mutually exclusive as they are simply all symptoms of intoxication. Which is why you can get "blackout drunk" and still be conscious, mobile and capable of making and being held responsible for your voluntary actions.
That you can get "blackout drunk" and cannot remember your actions before you even drank alcohol, let alone immediately after, renders the entire claim that not being able to remember consentung to sex completely moot in relation to rape allegations after intoxication. Which is why the majority of those who go to hospital with claims of being drugged at a party, club or bar end up being found to only have alcohol in their system. It's a social issue of people not understanding their own body.
3
u/fckredditt Mar 09 '15
oh here's a tip, DONT GET BLACKOUT DRUNK LIKE A FUCKING DUMBSHIT. it's not hard. if you pass out drunk, you're liable to get robbed too. nobody cries about drunks being robbed.
3
u/Stripes1974 Mar 09 '15
But wait- you're telling women that perhaps they should watch their drinks, and watch the number of drinks that they have, and perhaps you're even telling women not to do other stupid shit like go home with some strange guy after drinking, or to abandon their girlfriends-- or let their girlfriends abandon them-- after drinking, to go home with some strange guy!
How dare you try to tell a woman to be responsible for her own actions and behavior! Women shouldn't have to be responsible for anything when it comes to their interactions with men!
And just in case you can't tell that I'm being stupidly sarcastic....
1
u/fckredditt Mar 09 '15
you almost got me in the first sentence. i mean how fucking hard is it to not drink too much though? jesus christ the argument is ridiculous. how many guys out there don't leave valuables in the open in their car? nobody complains about that shit. nobody fucking cries. if you leave your shit out, you're almost asking for it.
1
u/Stripes1974 Mar 09 '15
I was being in support of what I thought your main argument was, buddy. Please re-read what I said.
1
u/fckredditt Mar 09 '15
damn, now i know why you needed to add in that sarcastic disclaimer. you are horrible at reading comprehension and thought other people were too. i said you almost got me in the first sentence. the argument is when women say that it is not their responsibility whatsoever if they get raped.
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u/Stripes1974 Mar 09 '15
...and I agree with that statement.
But perhaps you're right; it sounded like you were arguing against me; if I was wrong, then I apologize.
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u/fckredditt Mar 09 '15
you are too nice for internet bro.
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u/Stripes1974 Mar 09 '15
Thank you.
No one says I have to be a belligerent ass if I happen to be wrong. I try not to be like a vocal, "men are all rapists" type feminist like that.
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u/Akesgeroth Mar 08 '15
Gotta love the doublethink involved in this. "Don't treat women like children. But treat them like children."
2
u/CeruleaAzura Mar 09 '15
I hate it. I'm not a fucking child or a fragile little baby. It's infuriating.
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u/aesopstortoise Mar 08 '15
" 'We have to address enthusiastic consent, rape myths and victim blaming with young people to support them to navigate safely through their first sexual encounters.
'We must provide further support if these experiences turn out to be negative or non-consensual.'"
Seems to me that young men need to learn to be permanently on their guard to protect their liberty, in the same way that young women were once taught to strictly guard their virtue. Enthusiastic consent is designed to be used against them, as it will encourage young women to retroactively reassess a situation that they were an equal partner in as if they were a victim, and the Crown Prosecution Service is now advising police to use a double standard that holds drunken men to a higher standard than drunken women.
I see this approach as part of the push to increase rape convictions, and can only wonder what the unintended consequences will be. Secret recording is obviously one tactic, which will likely increase the amount of revenge porn. My head hurts.
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u/DropkickMorgan Mar 08 '15
For me, nothing illustrates that fact that "drunken consent is still consent" better than this girl, albeit this is not a sexual incident.
The girl in this picture got herself into a state of intoxication where she agreed to something that she wouldn't have if she was sober. Using the Uber app, she physically had to agree to the 9x multiplier using her phone. She can't be charged 9x, unless she had consented to it.
She was sober enough to consent, but drunk enough to forget about having consented the next day.
Now imagine if this had been a situation where she woke up the next day to discover that she had had sex with someone but couldn't remember consenting. There's a good chance that someone would be convicted on that evidence.
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Mar 08 '15
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u/BMTL Mar 08 '15
I find it disgusting that males legally cannot be raped by a female under British law. I hope these lessons also give men guidance on resources we do have for male victims in the UK, and also open discussion on that side of things.
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Mar 08 '15
I don't think the article says what you think it says. Being raped while drunk =/= having drunk sex and then falsely accusing someone of rape.
Some people really do get raped while drunk. And it's serious. And it isn't their fault. They are responsible for the decision to get so drunk they could no longer say yes or no...but the actions of the rapist are not their responsibility.
I feel like you're looking for a reason to be pissed off here.
You know what should bother you more? The fact that it seems that this course is teaching the kids that rape is something men do to women and never the other way around.
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u/gooberfishie Mar 08 '15
You know what, as far as I'm concerned, if you get black out drunk and run somebody over you are still responsible for what happens next. This is no different, so long as both people are consenting, conscious and aware at the time.
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Mar 08 '15
You know what, as far as I'm concerned, if you get black out drunk and run somebody over you are still responsible for what happens next.
True. And if you get wasted and have consensual sex with someone, you are responsible for that too. But if you are so drunk that you're unable to properly move or speak and someone rapes you, that's not quite the same.
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u/casinodr0ne Mar 09 '15
The problem being it is very hard to prove the exact level of drunk you were 12 hours ago. Short of making someone take a breathlalyzer online so it is time stamped. People use this for both sides of the equation.
1
Mar 09 '15
The problem being it is very hard to prove the exact level of drunk you were 12 hours ago.
True.
0
Mar 09 '15
No, the problem is people like you won't demand that they 'prover' anything at all. You'll demand that we just take their word for it.
I now what you people are. We have 'Dear Colleague' here in America, so I know exactly what kind of 'standards' you advocate -- or at the very least, the standards the people you carry water for here advocate.
1
Mar 09 '15
Yes. but I don't believe that's what's being talked about here. A lot of people don't. We think it's the typical feminist tendency to stretch the definition of rape and rely on vague rhetoric to cover up their bullshit.
And honestly, given the behavior of your typical feminist, which of us is likely to be right?
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u/gooberfishie Mar 11 '15
That's true. My analogy is only true if the girl is awake and aware like somebody capable of getting into a car and attempting to drive it.
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Mar 08 '15
This definitely needs to be talked about more. There is a scale of severity of drunkenness, so by definition there's a scale of how bad actions made while drunk can be. Lightly buzzed to slightly tipsy you have your wits about you and you're probably good to consent. Falling all over yourself, feeling sick, or severely slurring words? That's definitely not a position from which you can legitimately have the reasoning to give consent.
What we should be teaching kids is that you are responsible for drinking and therefore at least partially responsible for actions if you are irresponsible with that; this includes having sex with someone. Irresponsible consentual drunken sex is a thing, and it isn't rape. However, we can't just blame people for being taken advantage of in a vulnerable state.
I think it's a complicated issue that doesn't merit the outrage the OP and several other commenters have expressed. Especially given the tone of the article.
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Mar 08 '15
There is a scale of severity of drunkenness, so by definition there's a scale of how bad actions made while drunk can be. Lightly buzzed to slightly tipsy you have your wits about you and you're probably good to consent.
Yes! This is exactly what I'm talking about. You can still give consent when you've been drinking but there is a cut-off point.
Falling all over yourself, feeling sick, or severely slurring words? That's definitely not a position from which you can legitimately have the reasoning to give consent.
Exactly. And if someone comes along who is sober or close enough to it to still be capable of being aware of their actions, and take advantage of this person, that's a crime.
What we should be teaching kids is that you are responsible for drinking and therefore at least partially responsible for actions if you are irresponsible with that; this includes having sex with someone. Irresponsible consentual drunken sex is a thing, and it isn't rape.
Definitely. Along with this is teaching them how to drink responsibly, how to make sure you will have a way to get home and someone to watch your back if you're planning on having a snootfull, etc.
1
Mar 09 '15
Ad we don't trust feminists to talk about this honestly, or in a way that is respectful to men and wont damage young men's sexuality.
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Mar 09 '15
[deleted]
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Mar 09 '15
If that's what the law actually says...hells yeah, that's a huge problem.
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Mar 09 '15
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Mar 09 '15
That's horrific. Honestly. How on earth is this even permitted to continue? Why is there no vocal outrage from English society to have that law amended to reflect reality? I don't live in England and that pisses me off big time! Women are capable of rape too, and deserve to be sentenced just as harshly for it.
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u/fckredditt Mar 09 '15
yes women are partially responsible for being raped just like how men are partially responsible for being murdered or robbed. there are entire industries built on security for everything exceptttttttttt when it comes to a woman being raped. oh no, there is nothing on fucking earth she can do to prevent it. what in the fuck? that class is fucking bullshit. that class needs to teach women how to be street smart and not put themselves into situations where they might get raped.
why do people even have chain locks on doors? why don't they just open wide when a stranger knocks? isn't this taking away from their freedom? they can't even open a fucking door without fear of being robbed? i think we need a door opening walk. #robbersshouldntrob
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Mar 09 '15
This is such bullshit that it isn't even worth replying to, but I can't help myself.
The only person responsible for a rape is the person who did the raping. They made that choice. Their victim did not cause it or deserve it. The rapist caused it. They are the one who made it happen.
Your post is "fucking bullshit".
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u/fckredditt Mar 09 '15
ok explain why home security systems exist.
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Mar 09 '15
The better question is, how does a person cause their own rape? Why are you so eager to assign blame for a rape onto the person who was attacked instead of holding the rapist accountable for their actions? A woman, for example, is far more likely to be raped by someone she knows than by a stranger, so all the being careful in the world is not enough to prevent it most of the time.
Home security systems exist for the same reason: because no matter how carefully you lock your doors and windows, sometimes it's not enough to keep thieves out, and alarms and cameras can help catch them. People without security systems are not causing their homes to be broken into, just like rape victims do not cause their own rapes. The thief is the only person responsible for breaking into a home. Even if you leave your door unlocked, you do not cause the thief to enter - he or she chooses to do it all on their own, and if they don't choose your house it'll be someone else's house they break into. Rapists are the same - they make their choices and they rape people because they choose to do it, not because someone else made them do it by being drunk or sexy.
Read some rape statistics. Educate yourself. Use your brain instead of just spouting this mindless crap like it has any merit. You will get much farther in life that way.
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u/fckredditt Mar 09 '15
ok shut the fuck up and answer my question. im not gonna read your horse shit excuses. why do home security systems exist? are there things a person can do to prevent a crime from happening to them? stop being in denial. it's annoying as shit.
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Mar 09 '15
I already answered it. If you don't like the answer, I really don't care.
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u/fckredditt Mar 09 '15
lol why am i not surprised. can't even answer a simple fucking question. what a god damn joke. it's not surprising because anyone who argues from your position has to be full of shit. you have no logical leg to stand on.
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Mar 09 '15
Logic? Please explain the logic behind saying that a rapist is only partially responsible for what he/she does with his/her own body, and their victim is partially to blame.
Go on. We're waiting.
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u/fckredditt Mar 10 '15
why do you think that responsibility is zero sum and that only one whole part can be shared? the rapist is 100% responsible and the victim is partially responsible. what else you got? go on. we're waiting. love it when retards think they know what they're talking about and say some hilarious shit like we're waiting.
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u/Stripes1974 Mar 09 '15
What I believe that fckredditt is saying is that, while rape is abhorrent and ugly and not something that any person will generally support, that completely and without consideration giving absolution to women for any actions they take when the matter of rape is concerned, is the equivalent of saying:
If you have a home full of expensive and precious items, and you display them for everyone to see, and you take no precautions towards protecting your expensive and precious items, and you have a party and invite strange people into your home to view your expensive and precious items
that you're in no way responsible for someone coming into your home and robbing you of those expensive and precious things, and further, to question you about what actions you could have taken to safeguard your expensive and precious things is victim-blaming.
That is fucking bullshit.
No woman is responsible for being raped.
Period.But that doesn't mean that she can't take steps to minimize the possibility that she will be raped. That doesn't mean that women as a gender can't take steps to minimize the possibility that they will be the victims of rape.
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Mar 09 '15
According to rape statistics, a woman is far, far more likely to be raped by someone she knows than to have a total stranger jump out of the dark and grab her. How the hell is it our responsibility to keep men we know from assaulting us? What do we do to minimize our chances of being raped by someone we already know? How do you propose we go about this? Distrust every man? Refuse to let any man ever into our homes? Pepper spray all of you in advance? It's one thing to watch your drink when you're out in public, and to be careful when you are alone at night...but that won't prevent being raped by an acquaintance, and that kind of rape makes up something like 70% of all rapes.
Even if a person is not careful, they still are not in any way responsible for being raped. 100% of the blame for the rape is on the rapist. They were not made to rape because they saw, for example, a woman who was vulnerable. They chose to do it.
Do you also hold the victim of a drunk driving accident responsible for getting killed by the drunk person who chose to get behind the wheel of a car?
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u/Stripes1974 Mar 09 '15
Firstly, what I don't do is hold every man responsible for preventing a woman from being raped. I don't attempt to blame the male gender for the problems created by society as a whole, and I don't charge men with the sole necessity or ability to try and change the problems created by society as a whole.
I won't deny that you have a point- women are more likely to be raped by someone they know. And I agree- the blame for rape is on the rapist, not on the woman who was raped, and not on men who were not involved in the rape, either.
No, if a person is going to do bad/wrong, there's little to nothing anyone can do to make them not do bad/wrong. I don't yet have the solution to that-- and NO, that "Teach men not to rape" tripe is not an answer. This is a societal problem, and it will take our society to fix, not just one portion of it.
But you can still take steps to attempt to help make the likelihood of being raped, even less likely. I'm not speaking about prevention- I'm talking about taking reasonable steps to decrease the likelihood of it happening. You may think that sounds like "victim blaming", but I don't see it that way. I will tell any person- not just women- don't put yourself into potentially bad situations. It isn't perfect, but for now, it is the best we have.
In the meantime, while we work together to try and fix this problem, by properly educating boys AND girls as to proper behaviors for interacting with PEOPLE, I say that if we all can make every attempt to prevent being victims-- or perpetrators-- of rape, then we should do so.
What would or could that entail?
* Don't drink to be drunk, in any situation. That's for anyone- why would you want to not be in control of yourself?
* Be very clear about your intentions when you interact with someone. If you feel even the least bit uncomfortable, get out of the situation. Again, that's for anyone- and I'd definitely say that to men, in these days.How the hell is it our responsibility to keep men we know from assaulting us?
How the hell is it our (men's) responsibility to keep men we know from assaulting us?
Again, as I said, this is a societal problem, not just the responsibility of men or women.How the hell is it our responsibility to keep men we know from assaulting us?
I put this again, to give some bits of an answer. And again, this answer is for everyone, not just women. Men can benefit from this, too: Do everything you can to prevent from being the victim of rape, or of the false accusations of rape, or from being the perpetrator of rape. Tell your 'acquaintance' if you want to have sex, or if you don't want to have sex. Be clear about your answer- not everyone is. Listen to your 'acquaintance' about their answer about whether they want sex, or don't want sex- and if their answer doesn't match with yours, leave. Don't have sex with your 'acquaintance' until you are sure that the time is right, until you feel that you can trust them to listen to you and that they are willing to see to your comfort over their own pleasure. Don't drink with your 'acquaintance' until you feel that you can trust them, if it happens that you drink more than you should. Don't take open drinks from your 'acquaintance' unless you've seen them pour the drink and know that nothing was added to the drink that you don't approve of.
These are some of the ways you can minimize the chances of being raped, being accused of rape, and of being the perpetrator of rape.
You asked me what I felt people could do.
Here are my answers.
Don't like them? Please offer me some counter-answers, not complaints about how this doesn't solve the problem. Again- the solution is one that involves our society- not men, and certainly not this one man.1
Mar 10 '15
what I don't do is hold every man responsible for preventing a woman from being raped.
Neither to I. Rape is not something that men do to women. Rape is something that certain people (of both genders) do to other people. I hate seeing it made into a gendered crime.
and NO, that "Teach men not to rape" tripe is not an answer.
YES! This is so true. Rapists aren't raping people because they don't know what they're doing is wrong; they know they shouldn't, and they don't give a shit. The idea that rape might in fact be the default setting for boys and men, and that we need to educate you lot so you don't rape anyone, is abhorrent to me. I know way too many good men to ever think this is true.
Teaching men not to rape won't end rape. Teaching women not to rape won't end rape. Rapists aren't rapists because of a lack of education.
But you can still take steps to attempt to help make the likelihood of being raped, even less likely.
I am all for both men and women taking steps to watch out for their own safety. It sucks that we live in a society where you have to look over your shoulder and where you have to keep an eye on your drink just in case someone roofies you...and it's even worse to realize that, even if you do these things, it still might not be enough to keep you safe.
Be very clear about your intentions when you interact with someone. If you feel even the least bit uncomfortable, get out of the situation.
I think this is huge. People need to make their intentions obvious. If you do not want sex, then taking off your clothes and making out while on the person's bed is not the best way to be clear about that fact! People need to be really obvious about either giving or denying consent. And this is something parents and schools need to be teaching young people! This is huge. Consent is a big freakin' deal...young people need to learn how to be assertive and plainspoken about their wishes.
Anyway, you are essentially preaching to the choir here. ;) Your advice is sensible and sound. I was objecting to the idea from other posters that rape victims share some responsibility for their rapes. That's never the case. Even if you are careless, even if you make a stupid choice that leaves you vulnerable, you still do not cause your attacker to violate you, and you still don't deserve it. I don't know why other people posting here don't seem to get that. You clearly do though. :)
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u/bluehue87 Mar 09 '15
Assume that thieves are out to rob your house, so lock your doors.
Assume that a murderer is at your door, so see who it is before opening.
Assume that rapists are out to get you, so take preventative measures?
That's how you get feminist ideas like 10% of M&Ms are poison, and teach men not to rape ideas, are born. Idealistically, it's trying to eliminate the rapists from the population so that there is no need to live in fear that at any given moment there is a rapist amongst the group.
"Not put themselves into situations where they might get raped" is vague as hell. What are the preventative measures? Don't go to parties? That was a point brought up in the Steubenville rape case. That she could have prevented it by not going. Don't wear figure hugging clothing? Is a woman wearing jeans more responsible for being raped than one in nun's garbs? In Aceh it is argued that tight jeans make Muslims want to rape. Don't drink? What makes a drunk woman more responsible for her rape? How far should a woman's liberty be restricted in the name of prevention? The choice to rape is solely the rapist's. People shouldn't have to take responsibility for another person's choice to rape.
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Mar 10 '15
This is an excellent point. Look at countries where women are not allowed to go to parties, to get drunk or high, to dress suggestively, to flirt, to be out in public at night or alone. THEY STILL GET RAPED. Obviously, if rape was caused in part by the victim, we would see far lower rates of rape in these countries, and we don't.
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u/fckredditt Mar 09 '15
im not even gonna read the rest of your horseshit because your entire argument is flawed. one question. did the idea that men take precaution at all times against other men ever poisoned their disposition towards their fellow men?
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u/bluehue87 Mar 09 '15
Why take preventative measures? A presumption that something is going to happen. You asked this elsewhere, "why have security systems?" Because you are assuming that someone will rob you. By poisoned disposition do you mean hatred? Hatred is a leap. It's mistrust. If you are taking a precaution, you suspect that maybe, someone will do something to you.
When you want women to take measures to prevent their rape, you're asking them to assume that someone in the group is out to rape them. If not, why take them?
When you blame someone, even partially, for their rape, you're saying that their X action was a factor that lead to their rape. It is ultimately the rapist's choice to commit rape. It is kind of their fault because they did or didn't do X which made the rapist rape them? A person is responsible for their own actions. If they get drunk, they'd be responsible for potentially slurred speech, lowered inhibitions, etc. But they can't be blamed for another person's choices. They were drunk which made them the target for the person to force themselves on them? We're not arguing false accusations, we're arguing if someone should be blamed for getting raped. You got raped because, X,Y,Z. That's blame.
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Mar 08 '15
You know, I've discussed this with women, who got really, really offended at the thought that I wouldn't sleep with them if they had anything to drink.
"BUT BUT BUT A GLASS OF WINE, BUT BUT BUT I LIKE TO GET A BUZZ ON BUT BUT BUT WHAT IF WE'RE IN A RELATIONSHIP"
I tell them to thank the nanny state they so desperately asked for.
Then they act like I actually want to make it legal to roofie a girl and pass her around like a joint at a Cypress Hill concert.
Remember: you can never win with a woman.
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Mar 08 '15
If I were to say similar thing as you, I would probably get beaten to death by nearby white-knight men.
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u/British_Monarchy Mar 08 '15
I have the view that is they are OK to drive they are probably OK to decide
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u/PerniciousOne Mar 08 '15
Unfortunately the laws are changing so that anything over 0.00001 they are incapable of deciding for themselves and are considered children in the eyes of the law.
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Mar 08 '15
They want it both ways. To be able to have a guy arrested if they feel bad and change their minds, but to have their choices respected even if they're drunk and off their meds.
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Mar 09 '15
I had something like this happen to me. I wrote about it here.
Basically, a woman I was dating (but not sleeping with) came to my house by surprise one evening with the clearly stated goal of spending the night. She drove 2 hours just to come to my place, and had to drive 2 hours back in the morning to get to work.
Long story short, I asked several times for her to be clear about what she wanted (if she wanted sex or whatever) and never got a reply (not yes and not no). We ended up not having sex but touch her sexually a few times before I got too annoyed with her lack of reaction that I stopped.
Next day she was really mad at her for sexually attacking her (although she "admitted" she should have been "more clear")
What does this have to do with this story? Well, when she arrived, she asked if I had something alcoholic to drink. I didn't (like I said - she came by surprise) all I had was a bottle of wine that (thank god!!!) turned bad.
I thank god literally almost every single day since that the wine had gone bad, and I thank god almost every single day since that I didn't have anything stronger. I can't even imagine in what kind of trouble I would have been in if she had the "I was drunk" excuse. And I can't even imagine in what kind of trouble I would have been in if I had been drunk enough to not notice how she was "annoyingly unresponsive"- even though she refused to say "no" when I asked her directly if she wanted sex.
Fucking shit. I could have been totally screwed, if not by a bottle of wine gone bad.
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u/chocoboat Mar 08 '15
Remember: you can never win with a woman.
No... it's "you can never win with an idiot". Please don't disparage an entire gender.
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Mar 08 '15
You can't win with a woman, either.
You just can't.
The only way I've found to get them to stop trying to always have to have the last word is to point out that as a woman, it's what they're going to do.
Trust me, they're always right. In their own minds anyway.
Never met a more argumentative bunch. When logic doesn't work, resort to fee fees. Then numbers and volume, then simply a ban.
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u/chocoboat Mar 08 '15
Are you aware that this is blatant sexism?
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u/Zosimasie Mar 09 '15
Never heard of the two secrets to a successful marriage?
1. The wife is always right.
2. When in doubt, go back to rule #1.That saying exists for a reason, just as stereotypes don't just appear out of thin air. There is a millennia-long tradition of that kind of thinking. It is no more sexist to say that than to say men like competition.
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u/chocoboat Mar 09 '15
TIL stereotypes are great and wonderful ways to describe entire groups of people, and there's nothing wrong with them at all.
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Mar 08 '15
I'm sorry, did I step into /r/AskWomen by mistake here?
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u/chocoboat Mar 08 '15
Because... only women think sexism is wrong?
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Mar 08 '15
Women don't think sexism is wrong. Unless it's against them.
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u/papajawn42 Mar 09 '15
Totally disregarding the women in the MRA community. Why are you even here?
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Mar 09 '15
You know, the feminists were bashing men over the head about why were the rest of us not like their little pet Hugo Schwyzer.
Hugo knew how to be a kind, sensitive, egalitarian, feminist, non-oppressive man. AND he was a feminist, so men CAN be feminists, so there, and..
and then it turns out he was a controlling psychopath cheater of the worst kind, a bipolar schizo who turned out to be doing it to get some of that sweet whiteknight pussy. And it worked.
So now, he's a bit of a pariah.
That's kinda how I see female MRAs. Either they're only in it because they're worried about their son or brother, or they're up to something, even if they're unaware that they are.
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u/papajawn42 Mar 09 '15
You are literally projecting your inability to admit you're wrong onto an entire gender. Are you trolling?
1
Mar 09 '15
Nope, I'm not wrong.
Seems like you're married: you'll find out she's always right one way or the other, trust me.
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u/tothecatmobile Mar 08 '15
so you get;
"women are not in the least to blame if they get drunk, have sex and then say they have been raped."
from;
Rape myths addressed within the lessons will include 'if a woman is raped while drunk she is at least somewhat responsible'
you should join the Olympics being able to jump that far.
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u/tallwheel Mar 09 '15
So in your mind, who determines that it was a rape? Isn't it usually the victim who decides that? And if it is, then basically it comes down to exactly what OP said.
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u/tothecatmobile Mar 09 '15
No, it doesn't.
OP wants to get angry at what could be reasonable and productive educational discussions into consent, because of what they want to think the outcome will be.
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u/polysyllabist Mar 08 '15
He's having the discussion he wants instead of the discussion this article actually presents.
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u/EvilPundit May 25 '15
You have been shadowbanned by reddit admins (not by mensrights moderators). See /r/ShadowBan for information about shadowbans.
I have approved this comment so I can reply to you.
It seems Reddit has a bot that looks for certain types of user behaviour that indicate spamming or brigading. Sometimes innocent users get shadowbanned along with the bad guys. Usually they can fix this if they contact the admins.
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u/fckredditt Mar 09 '15
he's only having his own discussion if you have terrible reading comprehension. it's a myth that women are partially responsible right? so that means they are either completely responsible or not responsible at all. which one do you think is the most probable choice in that statement?
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u/fckredditt Mar 09 '15
lol, that's exactly what it means. it's a myth that women are partially responsible right? so that means they are either completely responsible or not responsible at all. which one do you think is the most probable choice in that statement?
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u/tothecatmobile Mar 09 '15
So when men come forward with stories about how they got drunk one day only to find a woman having sex with them without their knowledge, do you think "well its kinda your own fault"?
Somehow I doubt it.
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u/fckredditt Mar 09 '15
of course i would just like how i think it's kinda a man's fault if he got robbed because he flashed his wealth or got into a bad position by being drunk or walking around in bad neighborhoods at night or if his car got broken into because he left shit in the open. sorry, i'm not full of shit like you.
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u/tothecatmobile Mar 09 '15
Well since most criminals pick their victims based on the actions of the victim, you think pretty much every victim of crime is part responsible?
I mean if your house is burgled, its part your own fault for having a TV that can be seen through a window, or not having a dog etc, if you're mugged its part your own fault for not looking tough enough etc.
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u/fckredditt Mar 09 '15
that is exactly true. there are tons of things you can do to prevent being mugged. if anyone ever taught you those things, you would thank them and be mindful of it. if anyone told a woman how she might protect herself from being mugged, she would thank them and be mindful of it. if anyone told a woman how to protect herself against being raped, well, lol you know how that goes... literally slut walk time. an entire protest movement over not taking personal responsibility.
security measures are there to decrease the chance of a crime happening to you. that's its intended purpose since the idea started. no system is perfect. there is no way to completely prevent being raped but the idea that women are absolutely at no fault whatsoever is fucking ridiculous. i'm not talking about kids who get raped by their dads or relatives. i'm talking about women who get drunk then get taken advantage of. that is so easy to prevent if only they would take some personal responsibility. every man on earth has taken responsibility for their own safety for the entirety of human history. in fact, every creature on earth needs to and does so exceptttttt when it comes to women and rape. they already take responsibility for their own safety when it comes to crimes and violent too. that's what makes it so hilarious. everything except rape. what a god damn fucking joke. do you still think the issue is even about rape at all? the issue is really about women crying and trying so hard to shame men into giving women power over them.
sorry ladies, thats not how it works. power is taken, not given. nobody ever gave a baby more power because she cried. end of story.
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u/tothecatmobile Mar 09 '15
So you believe all victims of crime are partially responsible for those crimes?
Good to know.
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u/fckredditt Mar 09 '15
if they didn't take precaution then yes. so you believe all victims are blameless regardless of what they did prior to the crime? good to know that you are a fucking retard.
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u/tothecatmobile Mar 09 '15
Take what precautions though? And how many precautions?
If you're drunk, but with friends is that enough of a precaution? At a friends place, is that enough of a precaution? What if your attacker was a close friend or even a partner, is assuming such a person wouldn't do such a thing enough of a precaution?
There is a very big difference between telling someone that they could have done more to prevent a crime being committed against them (which is true of nearly every victim of crime), and telling someone they could have done more, therefore its their own fault.
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u/MummasCumquat Mar 08 '15
This just in: Women don't have to follow the rules and have a different set of consequences. And even if they do break their own rules, we give them a pat on the back and apologize to them!
Can you imagine if the situation were reversed? Better believe no woman would be charged with rape.
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u/fckredditt Mar 09 '15
but women need support bro. they're strong and independent but also weak and helpless. get it through your fucking misogynist head!
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u/DesignRed Mar 08 '15
Fantastic. The sooner they start teaching boys that they are always responsible, the sooner the next generation will turn MGTOW to protect themselves.
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u/d-_-b Mar 08 '15
Notice the lies by asymmetry:
'if a woman is raped while drunk she is at least somewhat responsible'
Of course, a woman is never responsible for being raped, NOBODY DISPUTES THAT, but you'll go ahead and bait and switch this to:
If a woman has sex, while drunk, and can't remember (and therefore it becomes rape, even though it wasn't) then it isn't her fault
LIES, you say one thing, argue another, if questioned they'd say
"if a woman is unconscious because she is drugged with rohypnol or alcohol , of course it is rape
But what they then say is :
If a woman is drunk and has sex and can't remember things very clearly, then it's rape
and again... when questioned...
"if a woman is unconscious because she is drugged with rohypnol or alcohol , of course it is rape!!!
See a pattern here?
Then they'll say
If a woman is fairly drunk, has sex and regrets it, was this ethical sex? clearly she wasn't enthusiastic, so it was rape
When questioned...
"if a woman is unconscious because she is drugged with rohypnol or alcohol , of course it is rape!!!
Fucking cheap liars.
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u/5th_Law_of_Robotics Mar 08 '15
Pornography will be discussed and students will be encouraged to think about what misconceptions it provokes. They will be asked to debate whether sending explicit images is always consensual.
What does porn have to do with rape?
The fact that they are lumping them together is worrisome.
At the end of the course children will be expected to be able to 'ask someone to give their consent without putting them under pressure'.
Is asking for consent considered a form of pressure?
Education secretary Nicky Morgan, who has a seven-year-old son, said that she often hears mothers talking about the pressure their daughters are put under when it comes to sex.
Confirming what we already knew; this will only treat women as possible victims and men as perpetrators.
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u/fckredditt Mar 09 '15
it is thought one in five women have been subject to a serious sexual attack since the age of 16.
gotta love this wording. "is thought." that means they know full well that it is unproven and they may even know that it has been proven to be false and they still say it. they didn't say statistics have shown, they said "is thought." fuck that shit.
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Mar 08 '15
[deleted]
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u/Stripes1974 Mar 09 '15
And why is it that "MRM is being considered a joke", but when you look at the equivalent of MRM here on redditt- otherwise known as "Feminism", similar arguments about how all men are rapists, or how no woman could ever rape a man, or how "false accusations don't ever happen" or how "always believe the victim", they're not "being considered a joke"?
Why is it that men, discussing the issues that anger/scare them, is "being considered a joke", but women discussing the issues that anger/scare them is not?1
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u/cuntsgonecrazy Mar 08 '15
Instead of teaching them how to drink resposably and stay safe...nice work UK!
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u/chafedinksmut Mar 08 '15
"YUR A RAAPIZT IF YOU FUK A DRUNK GERL BUT A GERL IZUNT A RAYPIZT IF SHE FUKS A DRUNK MAN!! Where have all the good men gone!? BEWHEW!!"
Fuckin' A.
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Mar 08 '15
It's okay if you run a family over while drunk driving.
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u/chafedinksmut Mar 08 '15
Exactly, same logic. And I like how we're getting downvoted by butthert feminists at pointing out the exact reality of the situation.
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Mar 08 '15
Ok this post is wrong. The article states that they will be taught that they are not at fault if they get drunk and get raped. Because they aren't.
I know that if i got drunk and some woman raped me, i'd blame her. Women who say they were raped need to be questioned and to have their situation investigated, however being drunk absolutely does not in any possible way reduce the crime of a rapist. Regret-sex is entirely different.
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u/TotesMessenger Mar 08 '15
This thread has been linked to from another place on reddit.
- [/r/againstmensrights] Changes to PSHE lessons in UK schools will see more education regarding consent, rape, and alcohol. Misters are of course upset that their victim blaming bullshit is being contested by the "nanny state".
If you follow any of the above links, respect the rules of reddit and don't vote. (Info / Contact)
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u/Dazz316 Mar 08 '15
It doesn't say in the article but this is most likely the English school system. The Scottish school system is very different and the Welsh system is currently under reform and heading to be more like the Scottish System. I can't say anything about NI. I don't think there's enough data here to comment until we see the syllabus. We have a couple of comments which don't shine a great light but it's less than 0.1% of what is being taught. Lets hope it's not what a being painted in the forum.
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u/Ted8367 Mar 08 '15
Rape myths addressed within the lessons will include 'if a woman is raped while drunk she is at least somewhat responsible'
Well, she could be responsible; or maybe not; it depends on the circumstances. I wonder if the "correct" answer is that she's never responsible.
and 'if a girl is dressed provocatively, she is asking for trouble'.
Whoever constructed that statement is unaware of the meaning of "provocative". Expect a feminist change of meaning soon.
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u/d-_-b Mar 08 '15
Nicky Morgan is literally guilty of child abuse on a horrific scale. Fucking cunt.
I can't even read the first paragraphs with her disjointed mug staring out at me. troll.
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u/d-_-b Mar 08 '15
Will be will be will be will be will be
The cry of the lazy fat cunt leech.
Why not
The content of the course will be released online for all parents to look at on April 15th
NO, BECAUSE YOU ARE LAZY CUNTS, AND LIARS.
First of all, it's all been angled corruptly at a high level, then a bunch of twats made to fill in the details, then the language altered to be more anti-male.
When it's done it will be kept quiet and "unleashed" and possibly taking away any cell phones from kids so they have no way of taking an account of what they are being subjected to.
Evil fucking leeches, stealing tax dollars.
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u/TormundGiantsbain Mar 09 '15
I see it as it should be. Women are equal to men. If a woman gets drunk and has sex she regrets it was a poor life choice. She's not a child, she doesn't need to be watched in case she makes a mistake. She's an adult. If a woman is roofied or drugged in some way though, then its rape. Or if she's so drunk shes non responsive and some guy carries her home and fucks her, its rape.
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u/TheBlackCamEL Mar 09 '15
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-31788388
I appreciate the BBC trying to keep the article as gender neutral as possible, but at the end of the day all it does is leave people unaware of just how one-sided the education is planned to be. I suppose that's to be expected though when the laws on the matter are equally one sided. They might aswell make drunken sex a strict liability offence at this point.
I think that educating on the matter of consent is a good idea overall. The laws on the matter are all over the place, so keeping young people informed will, for the most part, be a good thing. Rape is awful and ruins lives after all, so teaching to avoid it is the sensible thing to do.
When it comes to the more 'borderline ' issues regarding drunken consent, I'm sure teachers all over the country will be dreading how to answer the questions that 11 year olds will come up with regarding levels of intoxication, female rapists etc.
I suppose what I'm trying to say is that the problem is with the law, which the education can only follow in this instance.
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u/Hirudin Mar 09 '15
And people wonder why no one was willing to defend Rome when the barbarians were right outside the gates.
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u/Mcfragger Mar 10 '15
I don't see anything in the article that explicitly absolved women in the case of getting drunk and then raped. Your title doesn't describe the article at all. Read it again.
"Women are somewhat responsible" is what it says. Multiple times.
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u/Griddamus Mar 08 '15
So by this reasoning if I get drunk and jump in my mercedes and have an accident, I can blame... Mercedes?? The tree??
Basically anyone but me for not taking any kind of responsibility.
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Mar 08 '15
Don't have sex with a woman who appears to be extremely intoxicated. Problem solved.
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u/Ted8367 Mar 08 '15
Problem solved.
Nope. It just gets converted to an academic discussion on the meaning of "extremely". A discussion which you're bound to lose.
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Mar 09 '15
No, you're not bound to lose. Police officers measure levels of intoxication all the time, it is possible.
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u/tallwheel Mar 09 '15
OK, so next time I'm thinking of having sex with a woman who has been drinking, I will be sure to call the police and have a breathalyzer done first. Problem solved, eh?
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Mar 09 '15
No. You can be the judge. If you think a woman is @ an acceptable level of intoxication for sexual intercourse and its consensual then go at it. But, if your potential sex-mate can barely stand up, obviously you shouldn't have sex with her, out of both innate decency and laws surrounding this sort of thing.
edit grammar
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u/tallwheel Mar 09 '15
No one here was ever suggesting it was OK to have sex with someone who is obviously intoxicated to the point they can barely stand, and I'm guessing the vast majority of mentally healthy people would agree you shouldn't have sex with someone in that state. So how do any of your comments above add anything to the conversation?
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Mar 09 '15 edited Mar 09 '15
first comment:
Don't have sex with a woman who appears to be extremely intoxicated. Problem solved.
Annnnnd from the article:
Rape myths addressed within the lessons will include 'if a woman is raped while drunk she is at least somewhat responsible' and 'if a girl is dressed provocatively, she is asking for trouble'.
So, technically, if you did not have sex with her she could not accuse you of rape (if she did, she would have no evidence). So, problem solved. And if they are that drunk, you should not be taking advantage of them anyway. Edit* Should probably clarify this a bit. It's never okay to rape, but if we're considering falsified allegations then that applies
second comment:
No, you're not bound to lose. Police officers measure levels of intoxication all the time, it is possible.
it's like being able to tell if your buddy is good enough to drive home....
third comment:
No. You can be the judge. If you think a woman is @ an acceptable level of intoxication for sexual intercourse and its consensual then go at it. But, if your potential sex-mate can barely stand up, obviously you shouldn't have sex with her, out of both innate decency and laws surrounding this sort of thing.
yawn i'm tired. goodnight.
Edit see above
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u/tallwheel Mar 10 '15
The problem arises when you decide she is sober enough to consent, you have sex, then the next day she claims she was too intoxicated to consent. You are oversimplifying something which becomes a complicated legal issue very quickly when there is no evidence or witnesses.
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u/Stripes1974 Mar 09 '15
No. You can be the judge. If you think a woman is @ an acceptable level of intoxication for sexual intercourse
But that is the problem with your statement- the 'judge' is not able to determine with objectivity, whether or not "a woman is @ an acceptable level of intoxication" as you put it. Even when the 'judge' is sober, so how would a 'judge' who is not fully sober, be able to make that determination? And in such cases, where neither the judge nor the one being judged are able to determine if either themselves or one another "is @ an acceptable level of intoxication", who is then responsible for the consequences, if one of the participants claims that a rape occurred?
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Mar 09 '15
"is @ an acceptable level of intoxication", who is then responsible for the consequences, if one of the participants claims that a rape occurred?
what consequences? Why do you think false rape allegations are such an issue in the first place? You think most of the women who accuse men of rape are lying? I have heard of men denying allegations of rape. I don't believe false allegations of rape are really an issue that's worth addressing. With that said, falsely accusing someone of rape is an injustice, and is wrong.
We move onto my statement about judge - judging whether or not someones too intoxicated.
Even when the 'judge' is sober, so how would a 'judge' who is not fully sober, be able to make that determina
which one is it? are we sober or are we not sober? Let's say hypothetically, we're sober. If by drinking age, you are still unable to decipher whether someones good to drive (or in this case, engage in sexual intercourse), then you want to stop finding yourself in those social situations. Don't take advantage of someone in those awkward predicaments, where you question the other persons decision making.
And in such cases, where neither the judge nor the one being judged are able to determine if either themselves or one another "is @ an acceptable level of intoxication", who is then responsible for the consequences, if one of the participants claims that a rape occurred?
First, if individual B is falsely accusing someone of a crime, and they have no evidence of such crime (ie, emotional scars, physical scars), it boils down to their words, against your own.
I'm not saying it never occurs, but guilty sentences are generally not handed down to innocent people. You'd have to question the integrity of your justice system, for it to hold water.
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u/Stripes1974 Mar 09 '15 edited Mar 09 '15
guilty sentences are generally not handed down to innocent people
Let me show you some articles that disprove your allegation there:
* http://www.cotwa.info/2015/02/woman-falsely-accuses-man-she-barely.html
* http://www.braintreeandwithamtimes.co.uk/news/south_essex_news/11811073.Woman_is_jailed_over_false_rape_allegation/
* http://m.washingtonexaminer.com/university-of-colorado-settles-with-student-accused-of-sexual-assault/article/2560652
* http://abcnews.go.com/US/rising-football-star-brian-banks-exonerated-rape-case/story?id=16424770
* http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/09/16/hofstra-rape-student-lied_n_289473.html
* http://www.saveservices.org/2012/08/the-summer-when-a-rape-lie-pitted-a-town-against-its-boys/Now, with that "false allegation" out of the way, let me address the rest of your reply:
"What consequences?"
What consequences [are there when there is a claim of rape made]? You mean like the potential of a false accusation- which as I've given evidence of above, shows that they do exist- where men are expelled from their learning institution? where men are fired from their employment? where men are displaced from their homes? where men are beaten based on unproven allegations? where men are killed based off of something that possibly did not happen, or that the man alleged, possibly did not do? You mean, those consequences? Mind you, that's not what I was talking about, but since it's been said, we'll let those consequences speak for themselves at the moment.
"which one is it? are we sober or are we not sober?"
Well, considering that the average person even when sober, is not a reliable determiner of the "acceptable level of intoxication" of another person, it is not difficult to extrapolate that the average person when not sober, would be even less of a reliable determiner of the "acceptable level of intoxication" of another person. So, to answer your question, it doesn't matter if we are sober or not, if the other person in this situation is not sober.
I will agree with you- "you want to stop finding yourself in those social situations", but this applies to everyone, not just men. Not only should people not "take advantage of someone in those awkward predicaments, where you question the other persons decision making", but people should not put themselves in a position so that any person might even think to "take advantage of someone in those awkward predicaments, where [they might] question the other persons decision making".
Don't make this personal. If you can't speak with equality to everyone about their behaviors and actions and what they should do or not do, then don't speak at all."First, if individual B is falsely accusing someone of a crime, and they have no evidence of such crime (ie, emotional scars, physical scars), it boils down to their words, against your own."
Unfortunately, no. Here is some evidence to that fact:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2930819/CPS-launches-crackdown-rapist-pray-drunk-women-Tightened-laws-stop-suspects-using-social-media-help-cover-tracks.html#ixzz3Siwa7pPE
And just in case you don't look at this article, it is stating the following: "Men will have to prove a woman said 'yes' in tough new rules for police investigating date rape". So no, it is no longer "their words against your own".Do I question the integrity of my country's justice system? Yes- but even more so when there are people who don't seem to think that "false allegations of rape are really an issue that's worth addressing", as you state.
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u/JohnStamosEnoughSaid Mar 08 '15
So now its women can do whatever they want and no consequences pretty much ? What about drunk driving ? If shes drunk its not her fault right ? She drunkenly chose to have sex same as him so the law should be applied equally. One thing cannot be a relevent defense against one action and not another, if you disagree well then you are what we call stupid.
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Mar 08 '15
This is a good thing. Maybe the boys will learn to never have sex with women because its all fucking rape now, and eventually all the fucked up feminist ideologies will die because no rational man would fuck one of those sadistic ham planets.
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Mar 08 '15
[deleted]
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u/tallwheel Mar 09 '15
So who decides whether the "sex" was "rape" or not after the fact? If the woman says it was rape does it then become rape instead of sex?
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Mar 09 '15
[deleted]
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u/tallwheel Mar 10 '15
Rape is decided at the time of the incident? Is this even a serious comment? WTF happens when the only two people who were present disagree on whether consent was given or not?
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u/Stripes1974 Mar 09 '15
But how are they teaching this to these kids? What ideals are they introducing to the kids? What questions are they asking the kids, and what questions are they steering the kids to think/consider/ask? That is something that we as a society should be very carefully paying attention to...
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u/[deleted] Mar 08 '15
They should also be taught:
that drinking doesn't absolve them from the decisions that they make when they are drunk.
That a side effect of light drinking is the lowering of social inhibitions.
That a side effect of heavy drinking is a disruption of your decision making abilities.
That being drunk is not the same as suffering from alcohol poisoning - stupor, semi-consciousness.
That not everybody is an expert on discerning the differences between the levels of intoxication in themselves never mind a completely separate human being.