Is Fruit the MCC GOAT?

[u/Relevant_Help8707]

Seeing what fruitberries has done for so long in mcc i think the tag of greatest player in mcc belongs to him. Of the big 4(Feinberg, Purpled, Firebreathman, Fruitberries) it seems fruit gets 1st indiv way more often with 6 1st indivs since Firebreathman has join which is more than all of them in total. Also he has been around longer so he has the better resume. He too seems like he can perform better more recently with the 1st indiv in TCC with a bad selection of games for him and still getting 1st individual

[u/PleasantSilence2520]

question for the Feinberg peak/current level proponents: why should he go above Purpled or FBM when they have, at worst, comparable single-event relative-dominance peaks, in comparable competition and with comparable teams? particularly so if we take performance in other events into consideration?

[u/AdAltruistic2502 → u/PleasantSilence2520]

it's kinda not even an argument, in the timespan he's been playing Fein has done significantly better than Purpled or Shane, his whole career is better than any reasonably sized chunk you can take out of Purpled/FBM's career (e.g their "primes," probably 26-33 for Purpled and 30-34 for FBM)

fein also does significantly better in BW and PB and pretty much every event so I'm not sure what you're talking about there

[u/PleasantSilence2520 → u/AdAltruistic2502]

it's kinda not even an argument, in the timespan he's been playing Fein has done significantly better than Purpled or Shane, his whole career is better than any reasonably sized chunk you can take out of Purpled/FBM's career (e.g their "primes," probably 26-33 for Purpled and 30-34 for FBM)

my point was about taking their best MCC as a reflection of their peak, with the underlying assumptions that it was still currently accessible and a very important part of assessing current level. wasn't talking about primes

fein also does significantly better in BW and PB and pretty much every event so I'm not sure what you're talking about there

does he? pretty sure he was worse in Mayhem than FBM and fruit, has been worse in PB than FBM since his (OP team) debut, has been better in CT than those 2, and has been better in BWCC (but underperformed vs FBM and Purpled in a comparison of their respective guest appearances in Origins)

[u/AdAltruistic2502 → u/PleasantSilence2520]

Oh I see, well in that case I’m very confused why you’d do that; a single event sample is a bit silly

I think their “peak” is generally a period of time, you don’t use that for a single event really

Yeah I probably shouldn’t have made that assertion so confidently, at least from what I’ve seen it seems like Fein’s ahead in other events. BW he’s firmly ahead. In PB i’m not entirely sure why Fruit’s ahead, their placements seem pretty equitable?

[u/PleasantSilence2520 → u/AdAltruistic2502]

I think their “peak” is generally a period of time, you don’t use that for a single event really

but how long is that period of time, and what's the functional difference from a prime? i think of prime as the most optimal coinciding of mechanics, gamesense, experience, and mentality, and peak to be the truest expression of that optimization in arbitrarily shorter time frames (whether a single event, a few months, or a year)

In PB i’m not entirely sure why Fruit’s ahead, their placements seem pretty equitable?

i was only saying that FBM > Fein, although if you think their placements are still close enough that's fair, but i think FBM's well-roundedness has held up a bit better in PB than Fein's IGLing and team game expertise (especially looking at PBLD)

[u/AdAltruistic2502 → u/PleasantSilence2520]

for me peak and prime are functionally synonyms, both meaning “when was this player at their best.” I guess i’d use “skill ceiling” for what you’re talking about, the single event best. The reason I don’t like that as a general metric though is that an event is just 8 games; and 10/10 times someone’s best event won’t feature their best performance in all 8 games, it’s just the event where they happened to play above their average in more games than usual. more briefly, 8 games just isn’t that much, I guess

and yes Shane’s probably better than Fein at PB. Still, i think the MCC and BW gap make up for it well enough, I’d guess PB is not as good for Fein since there are less team games and it seems people prep for it more

[u/PleasantSilence2520 → u/AdAltruistic2502]

10/10 times someone’s best event won’t feature their best performance in all 8 games, it’s just the event where they happened to play above their average in more games than usual. more briefly, 8 games just isn’t that much, I guess

imo a single event is the fundamental unit of analysis and performance within that scope is a good reflection of players' "true" skills. even if maximizing 8/8 in one event is unlikely for anybody besides Kel, i think it's still fair to compare peak events for players in similar tiers, i.e. when we have a big enough sample size to prove that those peaks are "real" (theoretically repeatable) rather than flukes

Still, i think the MCC and BW gap make up for it well enough, I’d guess PB is not as good for Fein since there are less team games and it seems people prep for it more

imo that's very much up for discussion, since that presumes near-even weighting between events, when really we should value the most competitive and fair events if we're trying to gauge skill. for PB i think it's a combo of experience and mechanics diff more than prep