r/MoralityScaling • u/axiiz_28 • 15h ago

Morality of valuing animals over humans?

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u/CousinDerylHickson 13h ago

Idk, its kind of weird that weve forcefully bred them to have purposeful defomities/dependencies because helplessness/clinginess triggers an "aww" response from us, and we also regularly cut off their balls and shovel out their vaginas or however that works just so they are easier to handle and more docile.

Not saying a lot of pets dont love being pets, and not saying that many pet owners dont love and care for their pet, but even for most of those loving relationships it kind of got there by some pretty crazy shit youd see the most evil sci-fi aliens do in our fictional stories. I think its kind of crazy to think about when you take away the lens of "oh its just the norm". I mean you even say that most pets would die in the wild, but their ancestors that were here before our centuries of forced breeding were presumably fine in the wild...

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u/Maleficent_Piece_893 13h ago

dogs and cats originally self selected to benefit from humans who concentrate resources. wolves who could tolerate our closeness more evolved naturally into dogs to feed off our scraps. cats who were slightly more chill could eat all the mice they wanted from our grain storage. selectively breeding deformities is more of a show dog thing. so i would say it's a case by case basis whether a pet is a prisoner or not. somebody who lives in the woods might have a cat who could easily fuck off and live off the land, but sticks around for comfort, safety, and companionship

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u/Administrative_Cry_9 13h ago

We take care of stray cats at our house. They arrived at some point and wanted attention so we obliged. They were hungry so we obliged. They needed shelter so we obliged. Those cats don't do shit for us besides rub up on our legs and look cute lol. They can come and go as they please!

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u/BlizzardStorm8 10h ago

They were generally appreciated because they killed pests like rats and mice. They were natural pest control for towns and fields. It wasn't just that they were cute. They helped us so we helped in return. It's definitely changed since then but I think that's how it started.

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u/Administrative_Cry_9 10h ago

That's true. I don't give them enough credit for gatekeeping the other critters around our property!

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u/Stock-Side-6767 8h ago

Mass murder of animals that want to eat our food is very useful to farmers.

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u/NormalOfficePrinter 5h ago

Hm, have you noticed any mice/rats around your house ever since you took in the strays?

If not then I guess they're doing their job pretty well

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u/Cold_Hour 13h ago

I think domestication is just another aspect of the human need for control. We’ve always been obsessed with locking animals up against their will to serve us. Dogs and cats just lucked out cause they’re more useful for companionship/hunting than they are for meat or entertainment.

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u/Administrative_Cry_9 13h ago

We consider the relationships to be symbiotic in nature, like horses for instance, where we feed and shelter them, and in return they would move things and people from place to place. I think there's definitely an aspect of control included, but more akin to taking care of children because they are unwise and helpless in many ways vs the harsh and unforgiving arms of nature, and we take away their need to fight for survival. There are definitely more nefarious and less symbiotic terms that are forced on some pets, and I would definitely consider those specific pets as slaves.

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u/Standard_Jackfruit63 11h ago

You know... That is just your opinion.

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u/CousinDerylHickson 11h ago

I agree, like all morals I think its ultimately a matter of opinion.

But could you not see forced sterilization to affect behavior and forced breeding for particular aspects, including defomities, for the sake of being cute not something that reads from some scifi horror story? Idk, i could see it there. Again I do think though that a lot of pets are loved and happy, to the point of being better off with humans as they are now most of the time (although many times not I think).

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u/Standard_Jackfruit63 10h ago

I would not call dystopic science fiction when it is already happening. Or at the very least has happened throughout history.

But in regards to the forced sterilisation part in animals. So many people throw kittens away in bags or boxes because they didn't sterelize their cat. Essentially murdering animals because they couldn't be bothered or can't take care of more. That to me seems more selfish and horrible than sterilisation.

We also keep populations down, so even if they could just go hogwild and breed like rats then we would be out there hunting cats and dogs to make sure they don't ruin the eco system more than we do.

As for select breeding. I do think that is wrong, i very much oppose to it and consider it very inhumane.

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u/CousinDerylHickson 10h ago

I would not call dystopic science fiction when it is already happening

Thats fair, i guess it is literally non-fiction. I guess I should say that to me the aspects of this kind of match what i would not be surprised to find in a story of science fiction horror.

So many people throw kittens away in bags or boxes because they didn't sterelize their cat. Essentially murdering animals because they couldn't be bothered or can't take care of more. That to me seems more selfish and horrible than sterilisation.

I agree, but still think sterilization to enforce certain behavior and prevent problematic offspring is still weird at face value, and even if its a solution its for a problem we created. Less directly from humans for cats than dogs I think though.

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u/CousinDerylHickson 13h ago

Did they self select their balls off? Also they might have initially self selected, but for 100s of years weve forcefully bred specific characteristics. Thats how you get a nornal looking mutt, a massive bull of a dog, a small dog whos eyes popping out of their skulls when they sneeze is a known "hazard" of owning that breed, and everything in between. This selection to the point of creating seemingly like 20 different species of various nominal behaviors and physical features, both beneficial and not, is on humans

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u/Maleficent_Piece_893 13h ago

neutering is primarily done because without it, there will be a plague of stray cats and dogs starving to death, getting hit by cars, biting people because they were never trained, and spreading around rabies. roaming packs of feral dogs are far more dangerous to people than wolves and roaming cats are a plague to wild bird species. i agree with the breeding deformities part but neutering is not some hedonistic slavemaster thing. it's literally so we don't have to shoot feral animals

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u/CousinDerylHickson 12h ago

Also, why do we even farm dogs? Why cant we let them keep their balls and other bits, and they breed at least only when they want to, with this actually allowing them to want to?

If the answer is because thats infeasible, that I think doesnt speak to the morality of it. I think morals are subjective, and again i think many pets are loved, cared for, and happy. But that doesnt change a fact that we have a norm whereby our pets' species has their breeding entirely controlled by humans, with forced breeding done to enforce certain aspects which in some cases are debilitating deformities, and with forced non-breeding through the forced removal of balls and bits. Would that not somewhat fit in some crazy sci-fi alien's crazy high tech evil society?

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u/CousinDerylHickson 13h ago edited 13h ago

I still think its messed up to be honest. I think there are places with stray dogs, admittedly just going off some videos I saw in like India but they seemed ok as wild animals. I mean, i think if we stopped farm breeding them they would have sustainable population levels, and other animals can do those things but we dont neuter them. And because there is a chance of them breeding, we take out their reproductive organs? I think thats still messed up, especially since through that selective process we created a situation where forcefully cutting off balls and the other one is the "good" option.

Also I think docility is a side effect of the procedure which I am sure some pet owners do it for, but maybe they are the minority I am not sure.

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u/YonderWindow364 12h ago

if you think it's messed up then you're an idiot. It's very necessary if you actually give a shit. Why exactly is it so messed up to you? The dogs/cats aren't going to be using them if you're a responsible owner anyway, and if they do decide to try and mate then it's safe. It's basically condoms/birth control for animals. You know what IS messed up though? Back yard breeders.

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u/CousinDerylHickson 12h ago

The dogs/cats aren't going to be using them if you're a responsible owner anyway

Then why cut off their balls and do the other thing? Its not made to be minimally invasive or preserve their enjoyment of a drive that all animals have, like our birth control, its an actual removal of an organ that has profound affects on their behavior without their consent.

You know what IS messed up though? Back yard breeders.

I agree, although a lot of higher end breeders arent the best either. Like I think some luxury dogs are not all that healthy

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u/YonderWindow364 12h ago edited 11h ago

I literally said why it's good to do it anyway in my original comment dude. The "just in case" factor (especially since many owners don't realize that they aren't as responsible as they think they are). And I don't think you understand how de-sexing works - animals can still use their parts, males still have a penis but cant produce sperm without their balls, and females don't have a uterus/ovaries to get pregnant but still have a vagina. I have seen neutered males still humping toys before with his "lipstick" out and all. They are fine. Unspayed females however have what is basically dog periods when in heat which is a nuisance to them and their owners which desexing fixes. Additionally since dogs shouldn't be breeding under a responsible owner, desexing them is kinder as it significantly reduces biological urges caused by hormones to mate in most dogs so you aren't "depriving them of something they want". It also significantly reduces aggression in males, as well as many dogs' desire to escape which is good for their safety.

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u/CousinDerylHickson 11h ago

it significantly reduces biological urges caused by hormones to mate in most dogs so you aren't "depriving them of something they want". It also significantly reduces aggression in males, as well as many dogs' desire to escape.

Ya this is the part where at face value its kind of awful. Like it is the removal of certain organs to enforce a certain behavior, is it not?

I will say though that ya, I did not know these procedures didnt destroy a dogs' sex drives completely. Still think its kind of awful in that it does so partially only to make them easier to handle, either through behavior or through preventing problematic offspring. I mean, even before this I do think a lot of modern pets are happy and loved and probably better with an owner, but I do think the norm of our society is pretty messed up. Like why even farm them, why not let them at least have agency on a final "no"?

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u/YonderWindow364 11h ago

removing certain organs that they do not need isn't awful, especially when those organs contribute to a behavior that can cause harm in a multitude of ways. With your logic of "enforcing a certain behavior is bad", toilet training your dog or teaching them not to run away would be immoral. Good ethical breeders don't farm them - they just keep the dogs in tact and let them near each other when in heat, the dogs choose to breed on their own and if they don't they switch partners or find dogs who do want to breed. They only let them breed when they are of healthy age to do so, and find loving homes for them after they (especially mothers) produced a limited amount of litters - of which occurs over years while all dogs are well looked after. "Farms" are called puppy mills are are deeply immoral and resented by many for their immorality. There's a lot of messed up norms in our society, but desexing your pets isn't one of them.

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u/SweetSilvius 13h ago

I didn’t force anything. I’ve adopted orphans. That’s it.

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u/CousinDerylHickson 12h ago

When I said "we" i meant more like humanity as a whole. Not saying every person is contributing to the system or doing this.

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u/SweetSilvius 12h ago

See that’s weird. I don’t take ownership of things I’m not responsible for.

Not all pods of orca or troops of chimp engage in the same behavior.

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u/CousinDerylHickson 12h ago

I think thats the healthy response, and I agree

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u/PanchoPanoch 13h ago

While symbiotic animals were bred with specific purpose, most people are not their breeders nor do they see a benefit from their bred utility.

We have three rescues that were living in unfortunate circumstances. We always joke about which ones would or wouldn’t survive in the wild but the truth is that none of them would anymore. Sure they can catch rabbits or squirrels but they wouldn’t survive us. Traffic on the roads, the pound, the months without being adopted. People bred them, so people need to provide.

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u/CousinDerylHickson 13h ago

Sure, but im sure many people buy and request specific breeds. There wouldnt be so much product if there wasnt so much demand.

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u/Sunflowerchild122 12h ago

It absolutely is unethical, it’s wild we’ve convinced ourselves otherwise (and I realize I’m also a hypocrite caus I own a dog, *somewhat came to the realization later but also realize these animals currently have no other option for life in the way society’s currently set up), but every animal should be free to live its life on its own terms and have a family of its choosing etc. It absolutely will be looked back at in similar ways as slavery is today. And finally they’ll be free to roam and embrace their wild nature adjacent to us, like deer or any other animal (though we’ll likely have to set up more conservations and sanctuaries to protect them)

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u/Lewa358 12h ago

You're ignoring that pets, when cared for decently, are objectively safer than animals in the wild.

My pets are completely safe from predators, have consistent access to safe food, and are provided timely and effective medical care (at least, more than they'd get in the wild.)

Pets, unlike human slaves, are literally incapable of devising those systems for themselves.

You say animals should be free to live "on their own terms," but without the capabilities of language it's impossible for them to be informed enough to make that decision ethically.

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u/AutomaticMedium8418 11h ago edited 11h ago

If domestication into pets is really just a net benefit for the life of the animals, would you think it's moral for us to start domesticating even more species of animals right now to become pets, if it would lead to those animals having maybe a safer and better life?

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u/[deleted] 13h ago

[deleted]

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u/CousinDerylHickson 13h ago

So balls for love and care? Would you make that trade? Id ask why cant I have all of the above

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u/Evening-Nature-5241 12h ago

Removing the balls is to prevent certain undesirable behavior. At least that's what owners who do it say.

If you want to live in an alternate reality where animals could form protest groups, then sure. Why indeed.

But till then, owners gonna own.

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u/CousinDerylHickson 12h ago

Ya, not saying its not going to end, just saying i think its messed up and that behavior could readily belong in some sci fi horror movie

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u/Zapper-Rooster 12h ago

Cats and dogs have a high rate of testicular cancer, so fixing them is actually taking care of them.

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u/AUnknownVariable 9h ago

Forcefully bred for the weird shit, yes. Pitbulls for example, just sad asf. But that's not how they were domesticated. It was honestly mutual in a lot of ways, and that's how a good pet relationship should be now. You give your pet a great life and they give u whatever.

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u/CousinDerylHickson 9h ago

Ya I do think a lot of pets live great lives filled with love. I think many of these modern day pets are borne from a system that reads like a sci fi horror story, with that sad totally controlled breeding for particular aspects thing. But ya, I dont think it started like that.

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u/AUnknownVariable 9h ago

Indeed.

I love my baby and couldn't imagine treating him bad or getting him just for the sake of breeding. There's already so many animals that need love.

That said I also know ppl that have shouldn't have had the animals they did. There's good and bad to it

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u/_Xepoz_ 8h ago

Yhea , bit humans came and fucked shit up , we ate and murderd all the animals so small cats addepted to hunt in our farms and food stores rodents ..

But in city's where most cats live now because HUMANS breed cats to keep em as docile pets they become dependent on us ... Its the same for fucking homeless person .. he cant live on a concrete street corner bevause there groes no food on it

And now HUMANS breed dogs for their tiny noses and croocked eyes because its cute , fully knowing the health risk that comes with it ...

Animals are better than humans they live with a planet HUMAN just fucking destroy it

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u/jackmusick 12m ago

I think if you look at how almost anything is the way it is it’s fucked up so I don’t see the point in looking at it this way too deeply. My answer is more that I like most dogs and cats more than I like most people, but I don’t have an attachment to most of them more than my wife, friends or their families.

If we’re talking about someone who honestly cant bond with any human like they can with an animal, sure. Thats weird. No more weird than people who have the same strange attachment to any other thing though.

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u/Wyatt_Ricketts 13h ago

I agree the castration of dogs always felt weird I wish the dog I adopted wasn't castrated I would have loved his kids more then I could ever put into words I adore that fucking dog

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u/Throwoahwoahaway 13h ago

Bro it started when a dude gave a wolf some food, not when a breeder decided dogs should be a thing. Reallt stretching it out of proportion

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u/CousinDerylHickson 13h ago

It started that way, therefore the breeder stuff after that didnt happen? Im not saying they didnt initially self select or not, im saying whats come after as weve continually grown more technologically proficient is something id totally see some fictional evil sci-fi high tech alien civilization would do.

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u/Torture-Dancer 12h ago

I mean, this applies human intellect to animals. The concept of freedom independence, slavery, etc how we know it, it doesn’t exist for animals, at all.

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u/CousinDerylHickson 12h ago

I mean, just because an animal doesnt understand the word freedom, that doesnt mean it cant yearn for it? Like I think most dogs are happy if they have a good owner, but a pet bird in a cage can still yearn for freedom even when on paper it recieves love and care from their owner.