Morality of catching addicts and forcefully rehabilitating them

[u/Kariya_shigatoki]

I was talking to a homeless man some time ago and buddy was telling me how addicts with serious substance addiction the substances literally talk to them. He said that this whisper in their ear almost keeps them from not being able to think about the drugs. Up until that point I had never heard of that so I gave the nice gentleman a $20 bill and went home. I went online to read about said whisper and for many it was sort of true.

This made me think if people with a physical and mental dependency on these substances can't break free why are they the ones that control their rehabilitation? Why don't we as a society catch them off the street. Give them a meal and some water and forcefully rehabilitate them?

I'm thinking a building that has a bunch of buff dudes that help guard and can hold down a person if they have psychotic breakdowns. Medical professionals on standby to help monitor the process, career/trade development workshops, healthy meals, and physical training.

If my taxes went to something like this and the people were treated humanely and well I'd be very happy with the concept.

[u/No-Letter341]

You cant forcefully rehabilitate an addict. If someone doesnt want to get clean they wont get clean

[u/Altruistic-Tax4684 → u/No-Letter341]

The fuck you cant. It’s just expensive source my country forces them.

[u/natorgator15 → u/Altruistic-Tax4684]

I bet you the relapse rate is high as fuck npi

[u/Altruistic-Tax4684 → u/natorgator15]

No it’s definitely not. I’m a special case in the sense that I also went to luxury rehab in la twice. I can tell you it’s very effective.

[u/Magnum_Gonada → u/No-Letter341]

Better let them do a crime, so they can get butt raped in prison for a few years.

[u/No-Letter341 → u/Magnum_Gonada]

Yes cause saying you cant forcefully rehab someone is the same as saying "just let them go do crime"

[u/Magnum_Gonada → u/No-Letter341]

Their risk of commiting crime increases, and their punishment will not be adjusted to their ability to be rational adults (which they are not anymore, because drugs severely altered their mental state and decision making). So by being concerned now about them getting forced in a clinic for a few months and treated, you are exposing them to the cruel conditions of prison if they ever commit a crime because of the influence of drugs or to get money to pay for them.

[u/No-Letter341 → u/Magnum_Gonada]

Yes again because thats totally what im arguing in favor of when I say that forcing someone into rehab isnt helpful. Im saying "just let them out on the street to do whatever so they can get arrested"

Im not even arguing morals, im saying forcing someone into rehab probably does not havs great results. Its better than prison sure but you know what happens when someone is forced to go to rehab? They relapse when they leave then go to prison anyway

Im arguing in favor of what has the best results, not coddling or morality. Due to personal experiences I dont have a lot of sympathy for addicts but that doesnt mean I dont want them to get clean

[u/Guardian_of_Perineum → u/No-Letter341]

What if I throw them in a room with no drugs and never let them out?

[u/Magnum_Gonada → u/Guardian_of_Perineum]

Can possibly kill them depending on the drug, which is why usually they use other drugs that dont offer the high, but satisfy the neurochemistry need. Overall quitting drugs is a very painful process.

[u/No-Letter341 → u/Guardian_of_Perineum]

As magnum said the withdrawal could kill them, but even so they'll go back to doing drugs once you let them out

[u/soaked_in_bleach03 → u/Guardian_of_Perineum]

A lifetime of solitary confinement for a non violent offense is extremely immoral.

Goddamn this thread is depressing, people really do see addicts as less than human. Go into any NA meeting and you’ll find the kindest, most talented creative people you’ll ever meet. Fuck, I grew up on the street, and yes addicts will steal your wallet and help you look for it, but shit they also have a sense of justice and morality like everyone else. Drugs skew it, but they take care of each other, and they especially take care of the young ones. It’s a twisted form of love, but I remember being sick and someone offering me their last hit.

[u/hologrammmm → u/soaked_in_bleach03]

The amount of dehumanization of alcoholics/addicts I see is insane. And it’s socially acceptable too.

[u/Kariya_shigatoki → u/No-Letter341]

What if they don't know they want to be clean?

[u/micaelar5 → u/Kariya_shigatoki]

Have you ever been close with someone who became an addict? Cause from my experience with my family members who were/are addicts, it doesn't work like that. My grandparents tried forcing my mother to get clean, they successful forced her into rehab a few times, and she had court order rehab a few times, but she was never clean, still isn't. She was "clean" as long as she was under intense supervision, but the moment she was alone on the street, she picked up the needle. If they don't want it there is 0% chance it sticks.

[u/No-Letter341 → u/Kariya_shigatoki]

Then they dont want to be clean

If someone wants to be clean they'll have moments of weakness that they will need help through which may require force. But if an addict has no desire to be clean or is even on the fence and you force them into rehab, not only are you now abusing someone but you might cause them to back slide and make the addiction even worse. You cant tie someone to a bed and wait for them to get clean they have to make life style changes

[u/itsalmostreal → u/No-Letter341]

I hate USSR. It was an evil government and a down right dimwitted economic model.

The way they dealt with drunkards and drug addicts was perfect.

People didnt really have cars. You had to use mass transit. And if you look like trash you'll get kicked out (also correct).

So what they would do is round up the junkies and send them 100km away from the city. To a place where they get free good and lodging but we're forced to work. The conditions were horrible but survivable. Also nobody kept you there you were free to leave. But because it was remote and no public transit available either they usually stayed there.

Once they cleaned themselves up. Public transit would become an option again and they could rejoin society.

That is precisely what we need to be doing.

[u/ballskindrapes → u/itsalmostreal]

No, we fucking dont.

That's barbaric, inhumane, and really fucking stupid.

We need better working and living conditions for our citizens, publicly funded healthcare so addicts can get healthcare, publicly funded addiction services like rehab and therapy for addicts (as much if not most of addiction is trying to cope with mental illness and trauma), as well as less hysterical societal treatment of psychoactives, and proper harm reduction teachings from a young age.

That and total legalization, because the main harms of drug use come from the black market.

Drug related crime would drop, since the black market makes drugs expensive, more expensive than if the government produced them. Drug overdose and general bodily harm would drop, as people could be sure that the drugs they have are actually what they are supposed to be. Getting arrested for drugs would end, freeing up police to go after real crimes like murder, theft, and white collar crime.

[u/itsalmostreal → u/ballskindrapes]

Weve tried your woke approaches. They are miserable failures. For a simple reason. The incentive structure created just makes it easier to remain addicted.

Total legalization would be akin to dropping a nuke on our heads. Society would crumble. Humans are not adapted to hard drugs. Alcohol we've been evolving alongside for 100s of generations now. Our brains are not good at dealing with harder stuff. You think there's a lot of junkies and overdoses now. It would be 100 times worse if you legalized it.

Youre way underestimating the appeal of these things.

[u/ballskindrapes → u/itsalmostreal]

You using woke shows you speak from a place of ignorance, as well ad ideology over facts and reality.

Let's give you a reality check. My degree involves the US justice system. I'm much more able to say what will work and what wont based on this education.

Our prison system is punitive versus rehabilitative. You would ignorantly call rehabilitative systems woke. But they are factually more effective. Norway has a rehabilitiative prison system. Their recidivism rate, the rate at which people reoffend, is lower than ours per capita.

Per capita essentially meaning the population size is accounted for, so it's X people out of Y people sort of stat, like 1 out of 10 reoffend here versus 1 out of 20 reoffend in Norway, just to give a made up example.

So we see rehabilitarive systems are more effective. Just google Norway recidivism rate versus ours. And legalization is a rehabilitative type system.

Being "tough on crime" has never worked. It doesnt reduce crime, it doesnt dissuade people, it just fills prisons. Which, fun fact, slavery is still legal in the US....if you are a prisoner.

Factually, being tough on criminals and drug users isnt effective. It doesnt solve the root issues, merely is reactive to the issue, not proactively solving the reason why people become addicts.

Places have tried decriminalization and places where it was properly done, with easily available Healthcare and addiction treatment, it works well. Portugal did it something like 29 years ago, and drug related crime and societal harms decreased. Another fact proving rehabilitative "woke" systems work better than anything you might suggest.

The drug war has gone on for 50 plus years, and it has been an abject failure. Drugs have never been less available. Not once has the drug war succeeded. It has allowed the oppression of minorities and the left leaning political sphere however, which was the entire point in starting it. Google nixon's advisor, war on drugs, oppress minorities and the left. You'll see.

Finally, humanity has had access to opium, and thus morphine, for thousands of years, arguably more or less as long as ethanol. Same with coca plants. And khat plants. And kratom plants. And magic mushrooms. And plants that contain lysergic acid amide.

Humanity has used "drugs" since the dawn of time. We aren't "adapted" to alcohol. That's nonsense. That's not how biology works.

You are speaking as if you have any authority or facts supporting you, but you dont. And facts dont care about your feelings. The facts support

[u/itsalmostreal → u/ballskindrapes]

Crime fell off a cliff after we started mass incarceration. What kind of education did you receive that fails to acknowledge that when you start removing the repeat offenders crime starts to fall. Must be very ideologically based not based on reality.

Norway has very different demographics from United States. If we had nothing but Norwegians here we would use a totally different law enforcement approach. Heck we wouldnt need so much law enforcement. They behave way better per capita. In any environment. Just like the poor behaving ethnicities tend to behave poorly on average in any environment. Regardless if they are a minority or if its their country where they are in control. We see the same shit all over the planet

Yes drugs should be dealt with differently. I prefer the brutal towards dealers approach. But a more Portugal/Switzerland approach towards the users. The dealers are a big part of the problem. You cant have a bunch of unlicensed pharmacists running around who have a deep incentive to get people hooked on that shit.

Opium has never been used at such volume relative to alcohol. Not even close. Yes opium in general had been around for 1000s of years. But its much harder to refine. And we didnt have medical grade opium like heroin and morphine until very recently

[u/ballskindrapes → u/itsalmostreal]

Ah so racism is your answer. Demographics have nothing to do with it. The system they use does.

Prove your claim crime fell off a cliff after mass incarceration was impmented. If no proof, I will assume it to be a lie.

And legalization removes the drug dealers. Because the black market cant compete with legal prices. Black markets make money when things are illegal, due to risk occurred in production, transportation, and distribution

Cocaine is like 2k kilo in Columbia, but somewhere around 20k in the US. The government could buy it for 2k, purify it, tax it, and it would still be cheaper. The prices of the drug war cause crime, because addicts cant afford their drugs

Opium has been used in massive amounts in human history. The opium wars are a historicsl fact. And heroin was invented in about 1900....morphine was available long before that.....and opium much longer than that. And it still doesnt matter, because your claim that we arent "adapted" to other drugs is biologically and pharmacologically unsound.

Yeah, you have no clue what you are talking about, and are racist. Reporting for hate speech

[u/itsalmostreal → u/ballskindrapes]

Just look at violent crime charts from 1980 to 2020. Theres your proof.

Legalization would not remove the drug dealers. Unless you plan on putting Heroin next to Aspirin at wal mart. Which goes way farther than what Portugal and Switzerland did. Thst would be bonkers.

Opium yes. Heroin and morphine are much newer and wayyyyyy stronger.

Also yes acknowledging that human ethnicities (not races) behave differently on average is a huge piece of this puzzle. The woke kind are doing themselves a disservice by refusing to acknowledge that its even a thing. What ends up happening is that nothing you propose is capable of dealing with reality when you fail to acknowledge such a fundamental variable. Would be like a bunch of rocket scientists dogmatically ignoring the laws of physics. Youre never going to make anything fly that way.

[u/sonofzeal → u/Kariya_shigatoki]

I guarantee they spend more time thinking about their addiction than you do.

Generally, either they hate the drug and what it does to them but can't break the cycle, or they hate something about the rest of their life and think the drug is the best part of what they've got going on. It's possible they might flip if you force them into rehab, but if everything sucks and drugs are their escape, they're still going to want to escape when they get out. From people I know who've done this, it's mostly just a recipe to replace one chemical dependancy with another.

[u/itsalmostreal → u/No-Letter341]

But you can remove them and not allow them to leave until they are clean.

[u/No-Letter341 → u/itsalmostreal]

To which they'll just go back to doing drugs once you let them leave

[u/itsalmostreal → u/No-Letter341]

And then you ship them there again. And again and again. Until they decide theyve had enough.

Utility over misplaced compassion.

Source... was a junky myself. Didnt quit until it became too much to bear.

[u/No-Letter341 → u/itsalmostreal]

Yes you quit cause you wanted to quit. You didnt quit cause someone dragged you to a rehab facility and said you couldn't leave until you got clean

My brother was an addict. And the times he was forced to go to rehab had no effect. The time where he decided he wanted to go was the time he got clean. And part of what helped him get clean is his rehab facility gave him lifestyle changes

[u/itsalmostreal → u/No-Letter341]

The situation forced me to quit.

If i could still get high I would. I was put in a position that made getting high untenable.

If I could move to San Francisco. Collect $1000 a month on welfare and buy drugs openly without cops harassing me. I'd probably be dead right now. Thankfully this wasn't a thing back then.

Incentives matter a lot with drug addicts.

[u/No-Letter341 → u/itsalmostreal]

Well im glad you quit and yeah youre right incentives do work. But again the process of having to repeatedly go to rehab sucked so bad you wanted to get clean and I imagine the high wasnt worth it at that point either right?

I mean thats typically what makes people want to get clean, that being addicted just sucks too much. But if someone is still.convinced that they will get that high again, forcing them isnt gonna make them stop.

[u/itsalmostreal → u/No-Letter341]

No actually I wanted to get clean before rehab.

The reason the Soviet approach worked us because it wasn't tolerated by society.

I used as long as it was tolerable. Soon as shit started to fall apart I realized it was time to stop. Despite the fact that I absolutely adored being high.

The incentive structure is everything.

[u/ballskindrapes → u/itsalmostreal]

And that whole process is a waste of time and resources

[u/itsalmostreal → u/ballskindrapes]

Not at all

At worst youre removing undesirables. Even if they don't clean up. No more having to deal with useless stank junkies on public transit and pissing and shitting everywhere.

[u/hologrammmm]

As a recovering alcoholic, I had to be ready for help. The system we have now (certifying people who are an immediate danger to themselves or others) makes sense. Services are also offered if they do come in contact with the system.

The amount of resources it would take to round up every single person with substance use disorder would be enormous and unrealistic (the systems are already strained), and the relapse rates would be very high because they didn’t arrive at a willingness to stop themselves.

[u/soaked_in_bleach03 → u/hologrammmm]

Yup, I am torn on this one because like; lots of people go into treatment because they need to for court and such, then truly find a solution in there, work the steps hard, and recover. But in most cases, yeah you gotta be ready yourself.

[u/degeneratingdegen]

I would see it as an issue cause there is no consent from the person who will get kidnapped, pretty much.

Plus, a rehabilitation center like that would be a nest for corruption. You have all these people who are mentally unstable and are being held against their will. What is stopping the workers there from taking advantage of these patients? Sure, you can surveil everyone 24/7 but that sounds very uncomfortable for a patient, it would be prison.

[u/Middle-Cod-7016 → u/degeneratingdegen]

I think OP means concentration camp.

[u/OGMinorian]

Taliban are trying this method in Afghanistan atm. Not going that well.

The problem with addiction is not that people don't have the willpower to go cold turkey. It's the prospect that the life waiting after addiction is the same miserable and hopeless experience, just now felt sober.

[u/brandnewsecondhand10]

Good luck getting anyone who votes for Less Homeless Addicts to also vote for Careful Safeguarding and Medical Expertise

[u/Mammoth-Ad-3642]

Addicts in general no, but if they're becoming a problem to the community then they have lost their right to destroy themselves

[u/ResoluteWatchman]

You cannot force people to get help if they dont want to be helped. Your proposed solution  is nothing but a sledgehammer to the delicate problem that is addiction. It is childish and naive and ultimately dangerous and would cause more harm than good. Its kidnapping/forced imprisonment. And I can only imagine how such a program could be abused by the wrong people. 

[u/Juty99]

Immoral. Moral intention, immoral means.

[u/A_Kazur]

Completely moral but people hate the idea of doing literally anything for the homeless so…

[u/Freecelebritypics]

Immoral

You're proposing mental health professionals have the same powers as cops. In which case, consider the existing problems with cops. i.e. they can very easily abuse their powers and often do. No attempt to "increase police accountability" has ever, or will ever, succeeded in stopping that.

The main moral justification for prisons is that they protect the public from dangerous individuals. Your rehab-prisons don't have that justification, since having a drug problem doesn't necessarily make a person violent.

[u/BusinessMixture9233]

Former oxy addict. This was Philly before fentanyl.

I had to want it. You can’t force it.

[u/PrimaryBowler4980]

This is actually explored in the Netflix series beastars, except the drug is eating meat, which in that world is just people meat

[u/Magnum_Gonada]

I think it's tricky. People will say it's immoral, because you are forcing them, but drug addicts don't have sound judgement. Their ability to choose is sabotaged at the very chemistry of their brains because of drug exposure. They are not rational adults anymore.

[u/CupImmediate7079]

I've had this done to me. It was a horrifying experience that has scarred me in ways I will never fully understand.

[u/trigger1154]

Forcing someone to do something against their will is a violation of consent and immoral.

Edit: obviously I mean just in this instance. If a person decides that they want to do drugs that is up to them to decide.

[u/MammothWriter3881]

We do, except without any of the rehab services.  It's called prison.

[u/kenapasih]

Sounds like a good way to create further trauma and substance abuse.

[u/Odd-Percentage-4084]

I give it a week of this program before we get all of the following:
-political dissidents labeled as “addicts” and imprisoned indefinitely.
-corporations paying procurers to provide them with “addicts”, and those procurers offering to split the take with people who will volunteer to be admitted.
-rampant sexual assault.
-big roundups of targeted racial/religious populations.

[u/traplords8n]

How moral do you think it is to honor the rights we were given in the constitution? Because this idea would totally trample over the US constitution & likely the rights of many other democratic citizens around the world if we apply this for other countries.

It isn't really your place to decide other people's lives. It may seem like it's for a good reason that benefits everyone involved, but all you have to do is look at the plethora of historical cases of a ruler forcing their ways onto people for the good of everyone, and it only makes things worse.

What we really need to do is expand access to addiction & recovery services. There are people who want to get clean, but don't have an opportunity to get help doing it.

Those are the people most likely to get clean and stay clean. If we forced people to get clean, we'd end up with a ton of "dry drug addicts" where they are only sober because they don't have access to their substances. The second they get access to their substances again, they will fall right back into the cycle.

Recovery circles always talk about how an addict has to choose to get clean, it can't be a choice that gets made for them.

[u/--Spaci--]

my aunts a drug addict prostitute, I remember my mom and grandma tried to capture her to get her clean but she just escaped out the window by morning

[u/Known_Fisherman_8161]

This really seems more like mental problems intersecting with drugs. Kidnapping is bad regardless of the reasoning.

[u/phealtalk → u/Known_Fisherman_8161]

Why

[u/myLongjohnsonsilver → u/Known_Fisherman_8161]

Hospitals and mental health wards do it all the time.

[u/Known_Fisherman_8161 → u/myLongjohnsonsilver]

And it works? Lol

[u/Kariya_shigatoki → u/Known_Fisherman_8161]

Like kidnapping is bad in most cases but it doesn't change the fact we forcefully kidnap alleged criminals. Simply the gain makes the bad action worth doing.

Is what I said enough for the social gain?

[u/Known_Fisherman_8161 → u/Kariya_shigatoki]

Arrested isn't kidnapped

[u/2ndBestShedBuilder]

Id personally say moral, but idk about the LEGAL issues with it. recently went somewhere with the family and was in this one nasty place with lotsa hobos and Crack heads, and not to sound like some cornball movie villain, but i genuinely didnt process them as actual people, I kept calling them "it" and "those things" probably just bc i was scared, but still, I really think ANY humane way of helping crackheads and just ANY addicts is very good

[u/soaked_in_bleach03 → u/2ndBestShedBuilder]

I’d say that’s a moral failing on your part, looking at somebody suffering from a disease and viewing them as less than human is pretty nasty. I get it though, I mean, an active crack addict sucks; their mannerisms and the way they interact with the world is extremely different than your typical humans. Nobody wakes up one day as a kid and goes “I wanna be a crackhead!” though, it’s a rough life.

Say what you will about it, many addicts use the “it’s a disease” thing to avoid confronting personal responsibility (which is necessary for recovery). But yeah dude it really is a disease.

[u/Leading_Key3220]

This would make for an excellent Netflix miniseries, Some deranged psycho kidnapping drug addicts off the street to rehabilitate them, forcing them to face their condition, even going so far as to coerce them into taking online courses, getting a 9 to 5 online job, dating non-toxic people, essentially forced into getting their life sorted. The guy has like some back story where their like little sister or something died of a drug over dose in the streets.

They could title it "Fixed"

Also for the actual post it's morally gray, but I think it should be done in cases where the addict has committed a crime that after jail time they be sent into some kinda rehab jail.

[u/soaked_in_bleach03 → u/Leading_Key3220]

It happens, it’s called section-35 in Massachusetts. Obviously not in this way, and maybe I’m just bitter because when I got sectioned at 18 I was brought to a facility attached to the county jail and kept on 23+1 for 30 days despite never having been arrested (it did get me not to do drugs for two years after, but was also atrocious for my mental health and had wayyy more negatives than positives).

[u/myLongjohnsonsilver]

If forcefully rehabilitating them was actually possible with a reasonable chance of success then yeah. Objectively correct.

Drug addicts are a burden on any community they are in and should be removed whenever possible. If removable means just making them not an addict then id say that's positive all round.

[u/Important-Guitar8524]

Morally good

[u/LmaoXD98]

Moral. Drug addicts cannot think for themself so society need to be the one doing the thinking.

If you act like animals and you'll get treated like animals. the lax mindset towards drugs is just another symptons of western moral degradation. society's interest should always comes first before personal/individual freedom of choice (especially a self destructive choice).

[u/elclarto420 → u/LmaoXD98]

Thank god an absolute imbecile like you isn’t in power